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Posts posted by David Coscina
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I think Ottman and Tyler are good composers...sometimes you gotta pull your head out of your ass.
that's plain rude sonny
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Brian Tyler?!
Go listen to Darkness Falls and most recently The Killing Room and tell me this guy is the worst composer.
He is easily one of the most promising composers along with Desplat, Giacchino, and Powell right now.
No he isn't. I know orchestrators who lament trying to figure out his MIDI messes. I think that's what's so annoying about him in particular. He comes off as knowing his shit but everyone knows he doesn't. The Killing Room does sound better than what he's done but it's still a very limited musical vocabulary he's drawing from to my ears. I like parts of his Constantine (and not the Badelt nonsense- he's worse actually)) but Tyler has not shown me anything new or interesting. He's a prettier, straight version of John Ottman.
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Amenabar was a director first and foremost. He had some assistance scoring The Others as I recall...Yeah, Ottman loves film scores but he ain't doing them a favor.
Do you guys know what the common equation of suckiness there is among all these composers we revile? Too much money to spend on gear, and not enough skill or talent to write good music.
I would love to do this test- turn off all the power except a light, put every well known composer in a room with a piano and manuscript and see what they come up with. Here's my outcome
1. Williams kills everyone with what he comes up with melodically, harmonically and oh yes, he can orchestrate off of the piano too. His 8 stave score would contain everything needed for an orchestra to perform
2. Horner comes up with something decent but is kinda evocative of some lost Prokofiev piece
3. Zimmer doesn't write music but remembers a chord progression or two that he can fire off to an assistant who will transcribe his playing onto paper
4. Ottman, Santaolalla, Tyler, Bates, Jablonsky, et all come up with rubbish because they cannot write music without the aid of a full computer rig and a shitload of samples.
5. Shore writes a fleshed out piece but it's limited to his ascending/descending arpeggiations with the root, 3rd, 5th and flat 6th
6. Elfman does his best to scrawl out some meanderings on paper that include his quick 16th note descending flurries
7. Giacchino writes a theme on piano for long, drawn out plaintive chords and might futz with the piano strings for the scarier parts
Of course there are more I could tackle but you get the idea.
This type of exercise is something I had to do in university when we had a guest violinist in our composition class. We had 20 minutes to scurry to a piano module and write out something he could play when we got back. Tough stuff.
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MOzart
Goldsmith
Giacchino
3 of the worst - most overrated composers on earth
No, in the case of 2 of them,
1. they are not on this earth any more
2. You might not like their music but it's pretty much in the books that Mozart and Goldsmith were very good at what they did.
As for my list, yes, Santaolalla is up there. He ain't a composer by any stretch in my books. Brian Tyler (aka Guy Smiley) should retire and become a model for GQ for something. He's a hack. Same with Tyler Bates. Don't think much of Jablonsky either, and Trevor Rabin should go back to YES. I really despise rockers who turn to film composing in their twilight years...except for Elfman. He's the exception.
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So here is a more developed version of this piece with a quasi tetrachord intro and more of a lead up. I still need to expand upon this but it goes slowly.
I like it. Reminds me of Rozsa.
Thanks! What a compliment!
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Here are the categories for this year:
Score of the Year (only original scores written in 2009) Amelia
Album of the Year (new score category) The Red Canvas
Album of the Year (rerelease category) Innerspace
Composer of the Year Chris Gordon (Mao's Last Dancer and Daybreakers are two very strong scores)
Label of the Year Varese
Cue of the Year Ballet for Brawlers
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And when i just scrolled down my favourite iTunes scores of the last year, the Powell-Zimmer collab of KUNG FU PANDA ranks high. It has those MV stamps, but very tricky orchestrations and longer, well-developed cues, too. How anyone with a penchant for playful scores of yesteryear can listen to this score and isn't able to find one cue which isn't "pure crap" just has no ears.
Kung Fu panda is a very good score although I would ascribe the style being more Powell than Zimmer. I know Powell's music very well since I own most of his canon and a lot of licks are very much his thing. Not to disparage Zimmer though. I cannot know for certain how the work was divided up.
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Yes you have good points. Out of all the hours worth of music Hans has put out to say none of it is technically well done is very biased and plain wrong. He's done some very solid work in his career and he's an effective composer for film which is why he us where he us in the film score food chain.
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Look, Zimmer is a good composer, but more often than not he tends to write film music for the layman. Lots of gloss; but very limited substance - often perfectly suited to the movies he scores - movies for the layman.
The trick is to understand that fact, take it for what it is and not waste your time getting bothered by it.
This is a good point. I tend to get a little too passionate for my own good sometimes. And your assessment of Zimmer is actually spot on. I think the more interesting thing here is how Williams, who does dress up his music in a very complex manner, is so universally loved. It's his inherent talent for writing infectious themes but also his ability to make things that are complex very palpable to everyone, no matter their listening or musical background is.
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Classical listeners, I believe, can be too smart for their own good. Meaning, they feel they are more sophisticated than they actually are. I think film score fans are very discerning listeners by virtue of the fact that they can separate music from its narrative source. I find that the charges that classical enthusiasts make against film composers like Williams are very superficial and surprisingly naive. They feel just because they listen to Mozart's Magic Flute that they are somehow more informed than those who can sight read a Williams full score.
Listening taste does not dictate an informed opinion. Anyhoo, I suppose I'm somewhat indiciting myself here as far as my general cynicism of ZImmer goes but I will submit that Williams is still writing at the same level as guys like Prokofiev or Mahler or Bartok- as far as how deep one can uncover the various layers in his compositional approach. I have yet to find that with Zimmer or his co-horts. This is what I love about Williams. His music appeals to both the emotional side of me and the intellectual. I can appreciate and be moved by his music first and foremost, but I can also appreciate it even more when I uncover all of the attributes that makes the listening experience so rewarding.
Hah! I brought us back on topic! Sort of.....
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Well, in the spirit of the holiday season, I will offer this to those who like Zimmer and MV-RC. You ladies and gents are here obviously because you share an enthusiasm for John Williams' music- because of that, you have my respect.
I resolve to trying to discuss more than profess in future threads. Dialogues with different view points can be fruitful.
Dave
p.s. I will check out those links Koray to hear more of the Zimmer's score. Truth be told, when I heard Jeff Bond rave about it, I got my hopes up.
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2. I am really getting a little tired of the label "elitism" just because I have higher demands on the quality of music I hear. in fact, given the state of things in the world today, if elitism means a desire to strive for something better, then I will hold that title up high.
I think it's rather interesting that of all my posts where I deride a composer's output (and rarely the person themself), I have not attacked a forum member here unprovoked. Yet some of you chaps feel it's your duty to defend your composer idol as if they needed it but making personal attacks on me.
You have no need to defend yourself. It's common today for people to settle for mediocrity in all walks of life.
I refuse to subject my listening habits to what I personally consider crappy music and I will admit to it. And I don't care if anyone considers me an elitist or not.
God bless ya Mark. I recommend The Red Canvas to all elitists, as well as Chris Gordon's Daybreakers. Two fine scores that both happen to use the Octatonic scale. Bartok would be proud.
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I know someone that if he was driving along in his car and Hans Zimmer walked in front of him, he would not stop his car...
Disgusting!
Are you serious? If Hansy was walking in front of my car, I would stop, give him a ride to his destination and ask him a ton of questions regarding his thoughts on synths and electronics. the man is a wizard in that realm. And I'm sure we could have a very nice conversation. I would also tell him I LOVE Rain Main and Thelma and Louise. Terrific scores! And parts of The Thin Red Line. that's a good one too.
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p.s. I do own a couple of his scores including Last Samurai, Rain Man,and The Dark Knight, even the special edition parts of which I like butdon't necessarily think are good.
"Yes I have a friend who is ____________ so it's ok if I say anything about ______________ group of people. "
After all i'm sure that if Williams himself dared to come to the forums some would spit in his face...I don't think anyone here would do such a thing. That's just pointless.
Yes, you can like something on a personal level but still stand back and objectively assess it y'know.Objectivity is futile in this case. Your analysis is ultimately based around your learning. Your "nurture" if you will. There is a reason music is an art and not a science/math. Because it cannot be evaluated objectively.
Most self respecting composers don't think much of MV or Hansy's musicThat's not objectivity. That's a broad statement of elitism.
I see what you're saying but I must address some of your points.
1. One can definitely objectify anything with a given system. Music is a system just like math is. The difference is how it is received. People associate music with a visceral response. But, if we are to use the principles that have been handed down and developed over hundreds of years, we can get closer to analyzing the music. So what I am trying to say is that regardless of how music makes us feel, there is a system in place that can be analyzed regardless of the intention of the composer or the impact on the listeners. These are subjective motivations and responses. Perhaps the associative and suggestive power of music is too much for people to separate when trying to take themselves out of the realm of subjectivity. As for evaluation, I'm sure there would be a lot of pissed of holders of BFA's, Masters Degrees and PhDs in Music if you told them that.
2. I am really getting a little tired of the label "elitism" just because I have higher demands on the quality of music I hear. in fact, given the state of things in the world today, if elitism means a desire to strive for something better, then I will hold that title up high.
I think it's rather interesting that of all my posts where I deride a composer's output (and rarely the person themself), I have not attacked a forum member here unprovoked. Yet some of you chaps feel it's your duty to defend your composer idol as if they needed it but making personal attacks on me.
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Back on topic, I listened with an open mind to the examples and didn't hear anything new or different. Same limited harmonic choices with different instrumentation.
Isn't it a bit on the feeble side to ask for a Hans score to satisfy your specific musical needs after knowing perfectly well that the kind of pop-oriented score he is able to produce isn't to your liking?
It's just light music without pretensions of a fully fleshed out symphonic work but people always act as if Zimmer was obligated to produce just that...a second PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES. WON'T HAPPEN!!!
You assume too much. I never said I expected an amazing orchestral score. When I'm listening to a score with any style of music, I expect to hear solid music- meaning salient themes/melody, harmony, rhythmic elements, consistency, good execution. Or at least ONE of these components. What I heard in this example was Zimmer superimposing his stock action film style over different instrumentation without ever considering how those instruments work with music endemic to them. Someone else pointed this out earlier but didn't get ripped for it. Obviously some of you chaps are as quick to pounce on me as your purport that I do on Hansy's music. p.s. I do own a couple of his scores including Last Samurai, Rain Man, and The Dark Knight, even the special edition parts of which I like but don't necessarily think are good. Omigod! Yes, you can like something on a personal level but still stand back and objectively assess it y'know.
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But also, doesn't everyone on here say that MG sounds like John Williams or John Barry pastiche anyway?
Only those who don't know any better.
I agree. Giacchino sounds like Giacchino.
Agreed with the agreement. Giacchino has one of the most distinctive sounds you could ask for.
His animated scores are top drawer. They serve the film so well. I think that's his uniformly strongest output if I had to single out a genre he is really adept at. UP is a terrific score and elevates the film.
Back on topic, I listened with an open mind to the examples and didn't hear anything new or different. Same limited harmonic choices with different instrumentation. It's like Doug Adams' line in the Geisha FSM podcast where he mentioned how ZImmer bragged about using the Taiko drums for LAST SAMURAI but just superimposed western rhythms and playing techniques on a Japanese drum rather than absorb the idiom endemic to that instrumentation. Same applies here. And honestly gents, I did HOPE to be delighted by a different sound from Hansy. But I wasn't.
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But also, doesn't everyone on here say that MG sounds like John Williams or John Barry pastiche anyway?
Only those who don't know any better.
I agree. Giacchino sounds like Giacchino.
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He's still writing music featured in mainstream television and video games. I'm not sure why that doesn't count for much. I like how you;re turning the argument around as well. I never said your opinion doesn't matter, just asked why you are challenging Chris' opinion when he's frankly got a more enlightened perspective of the industry than you or I do.
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because they walk the walk, they don't just talk out of their arse. And I was referring to Chris Tilton. But I guess I hold onto old ideals like respect for people who know more or have done more than I.
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I would have thought a working composer would get a little respect here but I suppose not. Sorry Chris. If you want to be treated with a little more respect, I think other forums on film music would be preferable.
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Oh c'mon Chris, don't pander to the crowd. Most self respecting composers don't think much of MV or Hansy's music- they just don't broadcast it because of how small Tinsel Town really is. Word does get around. Er, which is I guess why you backed up there a little bit...
You just don't like him because you consider yourself a lot more talented, even though you will NEVER have the career, success and aclaim that Hans Zimmer has.
Probably but I will be original. guess which film that's from?
Also, and I know it's hard for your wee little brain to comprehend this, I never fancied myself composing for film for a living. It is not for me. Too much politics. So, I'm not envious of Heir Zimmer. I don't think I'm better than he, though I do know a lot of composers I would rather hear that are far more talented and skilled. But, hey, if you think you know me so well, anything I say here won't sink in so have fun.
Edit- Not that I have to qualify myself, but just to give you a wee bit of perspective, John Corgiliano, Carter Burwell, Gabriel Yared and Bill Stromberg all have had very nice things to say about my own compositions so I don't feel too bad about not measuring up to your standards Quint and Stefancos. Parenthetically, have you two ever contributed something other than deriding people on forums? Or is that your special thing? Just curious.
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Oh c'mon Chris, don't pander to the crowd. Most self respecting composers don't think much of MV or Hansy's music- they just don't broadcast it because of how small Tinsel Town really is. Word does get around. Er, which is I guess why you backed up there a little bit...
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There actually has been some really solid, amazing music for film written in the latter part of this year. Chris Gordon's Mao's Last Dancer and Daybreakers are both amazing scores. James Peterson's Red Canvas still knocks me out after 30 listenings (and a 3 hour interview with him about the score), Yared's Amelia which soars, and I could thrown in Giacchino's UP as well (though I really don't listen to it away from the film like I do with the others)
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Good interview, especially the part where he talks about the film music industry today as a whole.
He was diplomatic about that although I think we all know who he meant when he was talking about some composers sounding the same and how they are "almost set up as architectural firms".
James just scored big points in my books for that one. He might have his own vices but he can at least write the shit out of an orchestral score.
Worst 5 Composers
in General Discussion
Posted
since this is degenerated into name calling let me just say chill the fuck out. My post was a super over generalization and tried to keep with the spirit of the thread.