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Posts posted by David Coscina
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Yeah that was a cheesy movie.
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Like Quint, I also went in sceptical but found myself enjoying and returning to the track. He's certainly on the right track. I'd love to hear him find a voice.
I hear a bit of stylistic similarities between Red Canvas and Moving Pictures (which is a concert piece of his)
p.s. I'm interviewing him tomorrow for FSM- any questions you want me to ask anyone?
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What's with all the Twilight haters? Is liking this movie somehow a threat to your manhood? Yeah, I get the fact that it's not groundbreaking. It's not slick like Near Dark, or revisionist like interview with the vampire (and a terrific Goldenthal score to boot). But I didn't mind the first one and actually liked Burwell's score- I thought it fit. Desplat's "main Theme" for New Moon (featured in The Meadow on the assorted CD release) is actually the first thing he's written that I don;t care for. The chord progressions are just too generic. I pre-ordered the CD which should arrive with Yared's Amelia (fave score of the year) and the other tracks sound good based on the examples on iTunes. The wife and I will probably see the film for the heck of it but I'm not expecting Citizen Kane so it ought to be okay.
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Like it or not, Hans Zimmer is one of the top 5 mot influential film composers in history.
Er, no. Maybe in the top 10 but given how long he's been around compared to some others, here's what a top 5 would look like
1. Sergei Prokofiev (Alexander Nevsky= every film score that deals with war or battle)
2. Erich Korngold (swashbuckling, dense orchestration governed Hollywood for decades- Zimmer's sound has been around predominantly for maybe 10 years)
3. Bernard Herrmann (any suspense score has borrowed from his music)
4. Jerry Goldsmith/Alex North (both had the same style of composing, although Goldsmith was a little more adventurous)
5. John Williams (the name and body of work speaks for itself)
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I am actually surprised but pleasantly. Props to Zimmer. And yes, i do see the irony in me posting something about Zimmer seeing that I just lambasted Koray for doing the same thing.
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It's good, but I'm not stunned by this as much as others.
That's not surprising. I'll pass on your sentiments onto Mr. Peterson when I interview him next week.
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I'm going to be very interested to see where Murray Gold goes next after his time at Who is done, if he doesn't come back for the Moffatt regime (and I hope he does). I'd also love to hear Bear McCreary tackle a score with a full traditional orchestra.
Bear's concert works are indeed quite good. Still haven't made the leap of interest in his film and tv work but I do enjoy his full orchestral efforts for concert hall.
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composers to key an ear out for are guys like James Peterson. I cannot wait to hear what he does next. Red Canvas is colossal.
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I think you can't write orchestral music just while improvising on a keyboard. You need to think like a true composer, in terms of notes, harmony, counterpoint, orchestration, colors. And in order to do that, you have to study and learn because music has its own rules and disciplines.
When I spoke with Gabriel Yared last year in Ghent, he explained this thought very well:
Me: How much important is it to have a solid classical background for a young composer?GY: It's very important. I am self-taught, but when I say this I mean that I still study, even though on my own. I studied a lot of classical music scores and texts. There is something that is absolutely necessary to learn. You cannot be a novelist if you don't know grammar. So you can not be a composer if you do not know [the musical notes]. We must know how to read and write music like our own mother tongue. I think I can say this thing even if I am a self-taught. In this regard, in my case I found myself at the age of 30 saying 'If I go on, I have to fill this gap'. All the composers I admired, from Bach to Herrmann, had a classical education, and so I decided to take a two-year break and started to study fugue and counterpoint, because I felt that I would never go anywhere without proper training.
The ear can be our greatest ally, but also our worst enemy. Writing music by ear and put down a series of chords on a keyboard is not enough. A true composer needs to deal with the score, because his imagination is much more powerful when it is on paper than when it is just ear. You cannot be a true composer without this training. Look at John Williams: he's such a wonderful composer, when you listen to his music you can immediately feel the knowledge and the architecture. If you listen to the music of Max Steiner you will realize how great was his understanding of Mahler and Strauss. I'm not saying this is the kind of music that we should write, but only to keep it into consideration and maybe one day someone will become the Bartok or Stravinsky of film music. Today there are very famous composers who cannot read music and have become very wealthy thanks to their work. The only thing I would say to them is: be thankful toward the music and give it something in return.
Me: I have the impression that there are perhaps far too many amateurs around ...
GY: But if these amateurs make a fortune with their music, then they must give it something back. They must return the favor and say 'I'm going to study'. It's a matter of humility. I'm not saying to go back to the classroom, but to do it on their own. You can even start reading a lot. And the more you read, the more your imagination is enriched. Then, if you want to copy or steal music, well, there's no problem. Who has not stolen from whom? I mean, in Haydn there's half of Mozart, in Beethoven there's half of Haydn ... we're all thieves! But we have to be thieves from beauty and divine things. And it's much better to know in depth this tradition and draw heavily from it rather than listening only to film music and continue to perpetuate the same sort of thing.
I say I agree with every single word.
BEautifully articulated. Thanks for this! I also agree.
@Fiery Angel
Sorry about that, I'm actually having lunch at work and posting on my iPod and time is tight, so I shall read you later when I get home. Besides, my last post was a response to the words of Padme.
Oops, my apologies then. Anyhow, I hope my post doesn't come off as defensive- I was just trying to flesh out my POV on this because I do often chime in re:Mr. Zimmer and co.
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As far as this place is concerned, how exactly the likes of Zimmer and Co make their music is nothing more than ignorant speculation, since nobody can real claim to know how much care and attention someone like Zimmer might apply when writing.
I never take any notice of those who presume to understand the workings of another. They just come across as zealous fools to me.
Well, are you not making an assumption too however? And if you don't take notice of posts like mine, why did you address it?
My dear fellow, this is not wild speculation but fact. Just a little background about me. I started composing when I was 11 on piano and became interested in synths in 1985. From that time until now, I have been composing music using technology which would make that around 25 years or so. I have watched technology in music develop and change quite dramatically over the years with interest and have gone through more keyboards and bought more sample libraries than my bank account would like to admit. However, I did study music at university too, and learned formally although I would still submit most of my knowledge was attributed to hard work on my own. I have been reading tech magazines like KEYBOARD and SOUND ON SOUND for over a decade. They run interviews with Media Ventures, Zimmer, and his friends. In these interviews which are very technology and music driven, they don't just talk about the emotions or floury adjectives about film scoring- the interviews consists of methods and process. So when I say that Zimmer plays in his scores, it's because he himself has said this in print.
Incidentally, James Peterson, who I have been lauding on the other thread, admits that he does not use pencil and paper any more. He uses Logic 9 and Sibelius to compose. Michael Giacchino also composes this way. You will find most composers in Hollywood compose using this methodology. Heck, I do it too although I have gone back to entering scores note-by-note in step time using NOTION or Sibelius because I can write more complex music but then again I'm composing music for concert hall without insane timelines.
I don't think the methodology can categorically yield great music by the way. My feeling is that Williams would have been an amazing composer regardless. But I do put a lot of stock in some training and grounding in the principles of music composition. They helped me out quite a bit and I'm still learning. I think Danny Elfman is a great example of an untrained composer who, through hard work and a natural ability, has become a very solid composer. I think Hansy has latent talent- that cannot be denied. I do wish he would expand his musical horizons a little more but as someone else mentioned on this thread, he also might be typecast into producing a certain type of music so it's hard to know if he does possess more expansive abilities and is simply not able to show them.
Anyhow, I just wanted to provide some perspective on this matter. I also have seen Zimmer working on his MIDI performances in a very detailed manner (Dark Knight video) and he certainly has an intellectual mindset on these things- it's just that his music vocabulary is somewhat limited to my mind based on what I have heard thus far from his 20 year output.
Hopefully this clarifies things a tad.
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I certainly think that this kind of writing is infinity More compelling to listen to than much if what is popular these days. James actually said that he wanted to compose an old fashioned score as a tribute to the film score masters. With all this dialogue about changing times, technology and the like, a good theme and well written music still counts for something at the end of the day. People aren't as naive as Hollywood thinks. Give them great music and it will inspire. Give them crap and they will find some way of rationalizing it as a means if coping.
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how is being able to hack away at a piano different from a doing so on a keyboard?
Actually it is very different. When you have the opportunity to write notes in frozen time and have a chance to look at the score graohically you can create a more refined score as well as lay attention to the structure of a piece. Nowadays mist composers use a combination of methods which is okay too. They start at the piano to create their themes then move to a sequencer and develop it there or else a notation program like Siblelius or finale to refine the music. The real problem is the composers who play in their scores in real time because playing against a metronome does not allow the composer to think of things like shape, tempo changes, meter changes, things like that. And Miss Padme is right when she said that playing everything in realtime will yield what is familiar to the composer. Hearing the music in ones head and fleshing it out bit by bit is a much more effective means which to write dynamic orchestral music.
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I think it's getting somewhat tiring and redundant regarding your efforts to shove Zimmer down our throats all of the time. A little variety is all right but jeez man, this is still ostensibly a JOHN WILLIAMS forum.
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That means a lot Quint as I do find you honest and candid.
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It's totally worth it. I have been playing it non-stop. The thing I forgot to mention is how beautiful the string adagios are as well. This is a very well rounded score. It's not just mindless bombast but has a lot of moving material.
It's like the traditional approach to scoring- take a couple central ideas and play with them in various styles and idioms but never forgetting the main theme. IT's wonderful. Between this and Yared's Amelia, I'm actually very positive about film music these days.
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I know a few of you frequent FSM and this score has a couple thread on there but in case some of you don't check this 9 minute cue out from The Red Canvas by James Peterson. I have had the good fortune to correspond with Mr. Peterson the past couple days and he's really someone to look out for. His score is a loving ode to the monster epic scores of yesteryear by Miklos Rosza, Herrmann, North, guys like that. Some of you might pick up on the similarity to Williams' LOST WORLD theme which in of itself was a nod to Rosza with its chordal movement around a static pedal in the low strings. This is meaty, delightful listening for those film score fans who want something BIG but not noise. The brass writing alone on this score is inspired and I would say it's right in the same league as Ben Hur and Spartacus in its orchestration and sound. In fact, I honestly cannot remember something as ballsy as this except Goldethal's Titus or Yared's Troy and I would say that this even out muscles those two in places. What is more compelling is that this music accompanies a stock martial arts/UFC type film that normally would have the ubiquitous rap or hard rock score. To me, it's inspired.
This is as epic as it gets and I'm totally enthused that the filmmakers allowed him to write a score like this (Peterson says that they are musicians themselves which helped him sell this idea to them). The score has already gotten some recognition in festivals too.
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Jesus Christ that list is longer than my shopping list. I'll stick with Shore's SUN or else Giacchino's SWON
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As I have said before, Williams' Jaws motiv in it's complete form (orchestration, tonality) has been lifted directly from Herrmann's 'Car Crash' from North By Northwest.
I disagree. While both have an alternating half-step and some similarities in orchestration, the music is not "lifted directly." Also, the Jaws motif is so simple (and incredibly effective) that it can be found in MANY places; Dvorak's "New World Symphony" (4th movement), Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", and several of Herrmann scores have all been cited as the 'original' source of the Jaws motif and yet NONE of them are identical. I'll concede some similarities between all of these pieces (oh look! an alternating half-step!), but claiming that the Jaws theme is plagiarism or was "lifted directly" has always felt like someone trying to find where John Williams 'stole' that idea from. I think there are WAY more similarities between Holst's "The Planets" and the score to "A New Hope" (not that these similarities detract my enjoyment of both).
Also, I can't think of many film composers who have worked since Herrmann that have NOT been influenced by his work.
I don't hear too much herrmann in from our friends at remote control/media ventures. I'm sure if they did try to lift herrmann he would get up from his grave and smite them all however
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Although I would not say Williams is a Herrmann enthusiast by the sound of his music, I do hear some similar approaches to orchestrating and the sense of harmony (closed 7th chords). I was listening to Psycho the other day and that quick ascending figure played by tremolo strings was a technique used by Williams in JAWS quite nicely. And of course The Fury was one big ode to Herrmann (I think I read somewhere that De Palma was a total Hitchcock/Herrmann fan and even had the maestro score SISTERS towards the end of his career).
Just wondering if anyone else hears some stylistic similarities especially in Williams' thriller film scores. Even parts of Dracula (1979) recall the sonorities exploited by Herrmann in his music.
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I will add a "yawn" to this thread. Nothing compared to Debney's LAIR which has themes, even if they are 2nd gen from other scores. This is just non-descript rhythm loops with the occasional brass hit and more percussion. Ugh. John Williams is rollin' in his freakin' grave and the guy ain't even dead yet.
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Beautiful score BTW- one of Williams' best of the '90s i would say
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there are plenty of bland, tuneless, and "subtle" scores out there for the lot of you to enjoy. Let's not poo poo the rare occasion when a composer gives us something more than the lowest common denominator hmm?
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Memoirs of a Geisha and Munich come to mind insofar as restraint.
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The reviews for the film are terrible in general. Maybe some critics are trying to drag the score into it after tearing into all other aspects of the movie.
Which doesn't mean it won't win a slew of Oscars next year.
What is the last score you listened to?
in General Discussion
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Pretty much alternating between Amelia and Red Canvas, with a dash of Chris Gordon's Mao's Last Dancer. The three strongest scores I have heard in years. I play a little bit of Desplat's New Moon but to me, it sounds as though, after 11 film scores in 2009, he ran a little dry by the end. Not anywhere near as inspired as Benjamin Button IMO.
Oh, I threw on Spartacus the other day in anticipation of (possibly) a re-release impending (pure speculation, no hard evidence!)