David Coscina

That is very true Greta!

I honestly feel James Newton Howard has a shot at it. After being missed for SIGNS and nominated a few other times, he's due. And recently, the Academy seems to love the infusion of classical-styled scores and composers i.e. John Corgiliano- The Red Violin Tan Dun- Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon Elliot Goldenthal- Frida

Absolutely Bowie. I don't believe one has to criticize one composer to lift another composer up.

I actually prefer The Football Game. Maybe because it hasn't been proliferated in other film scores so much.

Stewdog, I think my emotional disdain for Alexander comes from the fact that I am an admirer of Vangelis and was greatly disappointed at how....streamlined his approach for this score was. I expected the full, lush harmonies from his older scores or even 1492. I don't understand why he made the choices he did. Oh well. If you enjoy it, God bless you. I can understand why many people don't like Shore's Aviator score. I wouldn't expect everyone to love it. I'm not sure I love it myself but I enjoy listening to it from a composer's standpoint. It's interesting to hear how he uses fugal devices and thematic immitation. Also, I like his use of ornamentation in the winds which is so evocative of styles of the Classical period, even Baroque.

I did a little looking into Karl. From what I can tell, he's got a PhD in Music Composition from a university in Buffulo NY. Most of his compositions are for choir. He signs his name with his PhD so we all know he's insecure and feels he must show off his acomplishments with titles. I'm actually surprised I even bothered to attempt to educate the people on that forum about Williams and film scoring. They obviously know it all about music and thus are too "enlightened" to hear other perspectives, even when they are fortified by facts. I also checked out another "composer" who cited Williams as using a team of people to write his scores for him. This guy's music is terrible. I find it ironic that a person who criticizes Williams for originality has nothing of any interest in his own compositions and merely sounds like he's throwing in a non-harmonic passing tone on top of standard classical modulations. Fool.

Stewdog, you don't know what you're talking about. I had to review the soundtrack for a magazine so I listened to it many many times before I came to the conclusion that it's crap. Technically speaking, it's basic sound textures and VI-I cadences for the entire score. This is not the same Vangelis I knew growing up from China to Soil Festivities to Mask, even Friends of Mr. Cairo. I have an extensive knowlege of the music of Vangelis as I also have a deep understanding of electronic music- I have been involved with composing for this medium for the past 20 years. And if it were me scoring an Oliver Stone picture, I would certainly use better samples than the antiquated crap he used- or else go completely the other way and use older analog synths. But the cheesy '90's samples he uses have no place in this score. They sound worse than the crappiest television score. Hell, Giacchino's ALIAS music is bigger, and more epic than Alexander. And he's using a scaled down orchestra too. I listen to all types of music- film scores, classical, jazz, reggae, Japanese folk music, Russian Orthodox choirs, Indian ragas, you name it, Ive heard it. Don't try to patronize me with that last statement. As I said earlier, you don't know enough to make claims like "the sooner you open your mind". p.s. Vangelis didn't "create" those rhythmic loops for Alexander. He used Acidized loops and ethnic rhythm presets from his '90's Korg synths. I should know, I used to own most of the boards he's still banging away on and I know a synth preset when I hear one.

Good Heaven's, that's like comparing Bon Jovi to Mahler! Actually, that's a more fitting comparison with respect to the gulf between the two with respect to harmonic complexity and pure musicality than I initially thought. Alexander is one of the worst scores I've ever heard in my life. Between the attrocious and antiquated synths and the lack of anything remotely interesting melodically, rhythmically or harmonically, Vangelis' score is bereft of anything that makes the composer's earlier works so engaging. Shore's Aviator is a wonderful divergance from his LOTR material, and I would say better written than LOTR too!

Actually, I ought to route my friend Doug Adams to this site in question. Without a doubt, his knowledge of music dwarfs anyone that I know. He'd really put this fella in his place and with technical terminology that would leave the guy's head spinning!

Oh, I don't think these prententious twits have heard Williams' Jazz Autographs either because who could they cite as Williams ripping off? I think most of these morons probably hate jazz too.

JoeinAr, man you crack me up. Funny as hell actually. I'm glad you're on my side, at least as far as Williams is concerned. The website in question does seem to be populated by faux academics who hate anyone who's had any success in composition over the past 20 years. I posted a poll on John Adams and the only person who responded was an asshole who said he hated all of Adams' work. My question to him was "the why the f**k did you bother to look at this thread?" Obviously, for the sake of congeniality, I chose a slightly less spicey response. But honestly, why a screwed up site that is! My feeling is that if someone like Bartok or Mahler were composing today, they'd hate them too!

double post

Yes! And I thought I was the only one who caught that! But I never thought of Williams as ripping it off. It's more evocative of Gorecki's piece than a direct lift. And his works so well in the context of the film, as well as on its own. Good catch!

Yeah, I couldn't let that thread continue with the level of utter nonsense they were spouting...oh well. I tried to take the high road but I'm assuming I'll be banned there within an hour.

okay, I had to respond. Too many inaccuracies put me over the edge... http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/inde...ic=944.msg34954

Well, I've read most of that thread and these folks don't actually seem to be very well informed on film music at all. One person mentions Goldsmith's PoTA being the first score to apply 12 tone serialism. Nope. Maybe free atonality but not 12 tone. That was Rosenman's "The Cobweb" written in 1955. Also, these posters appear to be classical music listeners rather than scholars or musical historians, which makes their opinions on music about as valid as anyone's. I wouldn't take their remarks to heart. There will always be people who have a viewpoint that runs contrary to our own. Whether ther are open minded to learn something new or accept a differing perspective is the tricky part. Much of their rhetoric will live in people's minds for a day, perhaps a week. Williams' scores will live for eternity. If you want to discuss film music or music composition with people who know their stuff, go to http://www.vsl.co.at/english/pages/forum/s...start/login.htm Especially in the Composition section, you'll see posts from working composers who know a lot about the mechanics of music theory. A few on that board prefer Goldsmith to Williams and I tried to argue for Johnny's music but was only marginally successful. However, I can certainly accept someone's opinion if it is backed by knowledge of the field. Unlike those silly twits on that other link

tell your teacher that JoeinAr said she's a stupid bitch, or he's a f'ing moron, whatever the gender, and then tell him/her's opinion is worthless. That might be a bit harsh but I don't think this teacher has a very informed opinion. Mind you, when I was studying music at university, most of the really sub-par students in my music courses were the ones that were planning on teaching music for a living. That might explain this scenario. I think what you should do is take something like Williams' Violin Concerto or heck, the Jaws Shark Cage Fugue, identify the subject, the answer, countersubject, stretto and episode, and then compare it to a Bach fugue. Or even take the 2 part fugue that Williams wrote for the beginning of A.I. and compare it to Bartok's use of the form in his works. That ought to either 1/impress your teacher and class or 2/stupify her into silence.

I understand that Williams was Brad Bird's composer of choice for The Iron Giant. Don't know whether he declined or was never approached...The result was that we got a Kamen classic though.

Are you implying that because Goldsmith is not Williams and therefore he can not be in the same league as your "GOD (JW) "?? I don't diefy Williams. I think he's a master technician at composing. In pure musical terms, I think he's at the top of the heap. But how he applies music to film, well, then I'd take Goldsmith because his marriage of music to visuals was a very singular approach. Not to say his music was bad- far from it. There are Goldsmith scores I hold in higher regard than Williams'. Obviously my initial post sparked some emotions on this Goldsmith thing. I don't feel that I am ignorant, having been involved with music composition and having scored films myself. That's my thoughts on the subject at hand. I do wish more people could try to separate their objectivity from personal feelings toward a composer or piece of music. Methinks less confrontations would arise. oh, and I stand by my initial post- Bad Girls and Congo are not Papillon, Islands in the Stream, Patton, ST:TMP etc. If you want to laud some good '90's Goldsmith scores, try Six Degrees of Separation, The Edge (a classic), LA Confidential, and perhaps Mulan.

I think this poll would be better applied to Goldsmith fans- who have a tendency of lauding everything the maestro wrote and defend such "classics" like Congo or Bad Girls to the hilt. C'mon, some objectivity people!

Stefan, that is a very good point. I won't refute it because you do make sense. I try not to get over-excited about Giacchino or any other new composer on the block (wasn't that a name of a boy band ). Time will tell whether he has what it takes. But I think he's off to a decent start. I hear more promise in his compositions than say, Trevor Rabin, who I liked in YES, but that's about it. Hollywood is littered with refuges from pop/rock. Every year it seems we're treated to the ubiquitous Oscar acceptance speech from an aging rock 'n roller saying: "I never thought I'd be holding this award...I thought my career was over and now [insert film title here] has breathed new life into these songwriting bones. Thank you Academy...." or something to that effect. Giacchino at least represents a throw-back to a time when conservatory trained composers were getting jobs rather than guys who wouldn't know a grand staff from a bass cleff were it not for their notation editor on their sequencer of choice. I don't mind that film scoring allows for composers from diverse backgrounds- but we're besieged by a plethora of people who honestly ought to have studied a bit more music before they attempted to write for 80 musicians. If this smacks of elitism, fine- I'll bear that mantle. If it means we can get back to having guys like Broughton, Schifrin, Shire, Yared, etc. working more often than pop rejects, so be it!

Giacchino is what, 32? Let's listen to some of Williams' output at that age. I love Williams and I think the guy is writing at a whole other level than anyone else. But let's accord Giacchino some time to develop into the current Williams status. It's not fair to compare what Williams is writing now with a guy who's just barely gotten into main stream film scoring. And from what I've heard, Giacchino is far more competant and has greater range than those idiots at Media Ventures or the Brian Tyler's of the world or John Ottmans (who also don't know how to orchestrate even if Samuel Adler's book crawled up his ass). I think it's time for some forward-thinking person to start a Giacchino forum. That way those of us who see the potential in this composer's abilities can talk positively about his work without running into those who make completely unfair comparisons. For the record, if Williams were to bow out of WOTW, I would prefer Giacchino over Zimmer.

I wouldn't complain at all if Williams wins his 7th Oscar. POA has some remarkable writing in it. Williams, to my mind, is in a class of his own regarding skill at composition. It's actually scary to study one of his conductor's score to say, Star Wars and see everything that's going on. Is it derivitive of Strauss? Well, yes, the scoring style is. But show me how many guys alive right now can write in that style so well! And that's the thing that frustrates me. One person declares Williams as unimportant because he's aping a late Romantic style. Well guess what you critics, it ain't easy to write in that manner! Besides, that's b.s. I don't hear Straussian scoring in most of CEOT3K, or Images or Sleepers, or JFK, or Minority Report. conclusion: most people are lemmings, jumping on the bandwagon of any half-baked ideology as long as it sounds somewhat intellectual, even if it is, in the end, empty rhetoric. We now return to our feature....

I know King Mark is just kidding around. John Williams is my favorite composer- that's a given. But I think preferring a score other than Williams is one of say a little more objectivity. Obviously I won't let my respect and adoration for Williams' music cloud my judgement. For me, of the scores nominated, I believe Howard's Village is the strongest. I'm saddened by the fact that had Yared's score been left in Troy, that would have easily been the best score of the year. Hands down. That's it. No more to see here folks. I'm also disappointed that Debney's Last Temptation rip-off was given a nod. Would have much preferred Giacchino's Incredibles or even Williams' The Terminal which, for me, was the stronger of his two efforts this year. "Jazz Autographs" alone is one of the finest compositions I've heard from 2004 and certainly one of Williams' greatest themes. There have been some folks, not on this board mind you, that have compared Zimmer's As Good As it Gets to The Terminal. Zimmer simply doesn't have the chops to write in the harmonic complexity of something like "Jazz Autographs".

I'm hoping James NEwton Howard wins it for The Village. I bought the soundtrack last summer but only recently saw the film, which wasn't as bad as critics said it was. Taken literally, it is laughable. But as a metaphor, which is what most Shyamalan films are, I find it quite poignant. If Howard doesn't get it, I'll root for Williams, then Newman in that order.