DarkLord89

Happy, happy birthday to our beloved Maestro!!! ^_^

It seems that speaking a Neo-Latin language gives some advantages here... It's very, very similar to Italian here.

1) Nope, bars A and B are the first 2 seconds from the Concord track. There is no snare drum stave in those two bars, though it seems odd the bar numbering and the fact that he wrote bars A and B on the first page, then left the rest blank and moved to the next page. This means, IMHO, that the first page of 1M3 was written later and then added to the composition before its recording. 2) It could be, but I think some percussions are different and also there's a crescendo that isn't included in the 8M3 Fix recording.

A few corrections on the "Temple of Doom" lyrics... Here's what I read when I over-analysed the thing: divyea pavea jagato matar / ahtish remati shegran shegran bojanam etad yatar siddam / asma bhissaha khada twantah ashabaliste svalpah krudaha / tam tuam sui kura karu naaha washta presadoya te vida raa yamo / hida yamka yaa dasas yamo tubhyam datum mamsam ahrtam / tubhyam datum mamsam ahrtam tubhyam datum mistam nutnam / tubhyam datum mistam nutnam (Oooooh… Aaaaah…) ghoram ghoram ghoram sundarum / ghoram ghoram ghoram sundarum ghoram ghoram ghoram sundarum / ghoram ghoram ghoram sundarum darunam darunam ghoram sundarum / darunam darunam ghoram sundarum darunam darunam ghoram sundarum / darunam darunam ghoram sundarum huh jai huh jai huh jai huh jai (female: ghoram ghoram ghoram sundarum) huh jai huh jai huh jai huh jai (female: ghoram ghoram ghoram sundarum) huh jai huh jai huh jai huh jai / huh jai huh jai huh jai huh jai huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh / huh huh huh jai huh jai huh jai huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh / huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh / huh huh huh huh huh huh huh

Could it be that the original title for The Map Room: Dawn is "Discovering the Script"? I don't know wheter "Seriph" has a particular meaning or if it even doesn't exist... Matteo

Well, this explains pretty well why Bouzereau decided to mix "The Warehouse" with the Raiders March... Matteo

If I recall correctly, that variation was tracked from the Yoda vs. Dooku duel ("This is just the beginning...!!!"). Differently from TESB, in this case you can hear Yoda's theme in an odd place because it wasn't MEANT for that place. Matteo

Nope. There are a ton of random inserts and odds and ends buried in random places on the ROTJ SE that are not pointed out in the liner notes Are really there?!? I don't think I've found them, or at least I don't remember them (apart from "The Emperor Arrives" in "The Lightsaber", of course)... Absolutely must give a listen to that set, too much time has passed! Matteo

How sadly true. And maybe one of the worst kind of cliches. But... hold on... weren't we talking about JW and his evolution in style?

I know it's not swashbuckling, maybe I expressed myself badly. Pretending that the original PotC score doesn't exist is not that much different from those who hail it as one of the very best swashbuckling scores ever written (I personally DON'T, I find better pirate music in Hook or CutThroat Island; PotC is just generic action music with nothing pirate-ish in it, apart maybe from Jack's cello theme). It's just the same close-minded attitude, only it is not directed IN FAVOUR of this score, but AGAINST this score. I think it's high time that we recognize the high popular success this scores have had and not blind ourselves with the assumption that "this music is utter trash and thus no-one will be remembering it in a short time". Again, there's some good in these scores, particularly about some nice themes. Such a shame they were badly handled as far as orchestration and usage (which is linked to the meaning of a theme in leitmotiv constructions) are concerned.

I'm the first to acknowledge that in its first incarnation this theme is VERY badly orchestrated, that its use during the scores (particularly the first one) is very messy to say the least (just like any other theme from that film), that some sections of that track sound too similar to "Gladiator" action scenes (I for one wasn't able to tell the difference between the two at first, and others here cannot even after multiple listenings), but simply pretending it almost doesn't exist is just near fanboy-ish attitude of the opposite direction than worshipping this theme as the very best swashbuckling theme ever written. Oh, and the video Stefan posted is just another proof supporting my argument: This tune is remembered by average "amateurs", but it's not judged with full knowledge of what precedes it, and what its history is. So, all in all, it's a memorable tune, but this doesn't mean it's good. Admittely, part of PotC 1 success at popular level is due to its score, no matter how good it is. It caught people's attention (for better or worse) just like the Raiders March did 27 years ago. This is why both tunes are successful, and I'll also say that the Raiders March is so popular nowadays (aside for Indy 4) because the original trilogy is still thrilling more and more people. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for other older popular themes, say CE3K (again, just taking into account "popular level" and the "newer generation" factors).

Well, it surely doesn't make it as memorable as "Hedwig's Theme" or "He's a Pirate" (both themes that, either they're good or bad, have definitely earned a huge place in popular culture, just as "Star Wars", "The Lord of the Rings", "Rocky" or "Back to the Future" have).

Sounds like a rank amateur in my book! Yes, I think it's something between 70% and 95% newbie, it depends on how much he listens to those scores (though, knowing him, I think he leans toward 95% more likely than 70%...). This doesn't change the fact that the majority of people I know still don't have a clue of how the theme from Brokeback Mountain sounds like.

Again, I'm talking about great numbers, not just one or two guys. You know, I'm an animator in a youth club in my town, and when I referred to my "guess-the-score" games I actually talked about 50+, if not 100+, people. And this guy actually is a great fan of Shyamalan, so he listen to JNH's scores (well, at least those from MNS's films), so he's not 100% newbie to the genre after all.

It seems I'm not able to explain myself. My experience with my hobbies or passions enable me to form an opinion about something concerning them (in this particular case, scores). I have more criteria about how good is a score, or about how effective is a score, than the casual movie-goer who barely notices the score at all (again, just for taking into account a recent experience within 2008, my friends didn't catch the Joker's siren, while on the other hand I did, and kind-of liked the effect it produces). But as far as memorability is concerned, taking into account an opinion from one who isn't usually impressed from film scores (or barely cares to them all) could be very useful in trying to understand the memorability of an effort. I think we're all "spoiled", from a certain point of view. For example, another friend of mine and I had an exchange while talking about how good the score from Brokeback Mountain is (he still keeps saying it's a masterpiece of film scoring, but I agree that tastes are tastes). However, the fact that he (and only he) cared for that tune tells me that it wasn't so memorable, after all.

Who spoke about complexity and number of notes? I don't think I did, nor I meant to. EDIT - I re-read my post and found the "one-note theme" tag. I used the quotation marks because either it's not a theme for it's just one note, or it doesn't consist of just one note. I usually consider the second option better, after a particular reasoning I did. Nonetheless that was just a side observation, it didn't concern the general topic. Answer 1: Actually Joe the plumber is nothing that comes across my situation, also considering the fact I'm European. Answer 2: Are you going to say that the actual preferences about film music are to come just from us? That sounds a bit elitist, and I often quarrel with people thinking "their" music is greater (when in most cases it barely misses the "utter trash" target)... Also, I'm not trying to understand how effective or how good a score is (something for which your argument would have fit and which I would have agreed with), but how memorable a score is. The Star Wars phenomen was what it was because casual movie-goers remembered the main tunes by heart as well (as do many people with instant classics today). Even in the 19th century illiterate people remembered almost by heart what are now considered the best arias in the opera music (such as Verdi's "Va' pensiero", Rossini's "Largo al factotum" or Puccini's "Nessun dorma"). Answer 3: Then obviously you are free to think that the answer in my previous post wasn't directed at you.

I think that the most reliable metre for this statement is how many casual movie-goers actually remember the music from films they recently watched, if it struck them so deeply that it's been impressed in their minds. According to this criterion, I'm so sorry to say this, but the reality surrounding me disagrees with this statement. I watched TDK with some friends, and NONE of them noticed the Joker's siren (or should I call it a "one-note theme"?). That's not saying that the Crystal Skull theme is firm in people's mind. But this reality also tells me another thing, about Zimmer's more memorable tunes than Williams'. Within the '00 film score output, people only remember "He's a Pirate" and "Hedwig's Theme". NO other particular theme from ANY other motion picture, save for "The Battle" (the beginning anthem theme) and "Now We Are Free" from "Gladiator", but that's mostly due to their usage in bombarding TV ads (oh, and they were NOT for the film). They are written respectively by Zimmer and by Williams: no other '00 film composer's music is as known as those two. It's a kind of tie. Nonetheless, people easily continue to remember the "Star Wars" main theme and "The Imperial March", "Back to the Future", "Rocky", "Indiana Jones", "Superman", "Ghostbusters". I usually use those when it comes to "guess-the-score" games: the Oscar-winning "Schindler's List" is already too difficult. Matteo P.S. - How ironic, it seems that John Williams' nostalgia isn't enough nostalgic to please his fans' nostalgia... Kind of a funny situation, isn't it?

Glad to hear you're a robot as well, Colin... Matteo

Well... Agreed with some. Casual people I know recognise "Jurassic Park", "Home Alone" and above all Potter at once as well, but on the other hand they have no real clue about CE3K. I think it's just a different generation enjoying Williams' music than the first he enthrilled during his Golden Age. I mostly agree with your scheme, but there are exceptions ("Last Crusade" (1989), "Home Alone" (1990), "Hook" (1991), "Far and Away" (1992) and "Jurassic Park" (1993) are not "serious JW", while "Angela's Ashes" (1999) is not a blockbuster). The 1999-2008 period indeed marks a return to the blockbuster form, but these movies are often scored with a more intimate and troubled approach, experimented during the previous period (I think there are some similarities in feeling between such scores as "Minority Report", "Artificial Intelligence" or "War of the Worlds" and "Presumed Innocent" or "Seven Years in Tibet"). Matteo

I'm sorry, I know I have almost no sense of humor at all... but I don't catch the irony here... I do believe what I've just written in my two posts. Matteo

Plus, I see many people who define Williams' "modern" style as "minimalist". I admit I have not clearly in mind every single meaning of this word, but I don't think that "Jaws" is much more flamboyant and richly orchestrated than what we have now. The only difference I can spot is that in his "modern" works Williams does not spit memorable themes into your face as often as he once did (the most praised '00 scores actually do that thing, just think about "Hedwig's Theme", "Sayuri's Theme" or "The Tale of Viktor Navorski"), but I don't see anything "minimalist" in this. EDIT: Wikipedia article. Based on this definition of "minimalism", I could say that any action piece that involves ostinatos is minimalist. In this case, even the last section of "Desert Chase" (but even the "Jaws" main theme, or almost the whole "Hyperspace" from TESB) is minimalist, just as KotCS is minimalist for its hypnotic usage of the Skull theme. By the way, I don't remember who said this and in what thread, but I think that's not that Williams "tracked" the Skull concert version into the score, but it's the other way round. I believe that the first third is derived from "Return", while the last third is from "Temple Ruins". The concert version is just written at the end of the score (in fact the concert version takes its time to fully complete the "Temple Ruins" Skull theme statements).

I have to admit that I NEVER found anything special about "The Desert Chase", apart from its usage of the Raiders March. It is mostly an action cue that I always regarded as "fragmented" (unlike, i.e., "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra" or "The Mine Car Chase"). The fact that it was made up of three different cues smoothed this first impression a bit, but when I discovered that the change of cue didn't match the change of "fragment" I was just as upset as before. Basically it is nothing more than an action piece conceived as a quite generic confrontation between the Raiders March and the Nazi theme (which doesn't occur in any other contest apart from the Ark pursuit). The fast rhythm makes it clear that this confrontation is a chase, but nothing more. I agree that what makes this cue memorable is mostly the scene it accompanies; if RotLA was to be released in a few weeks, and we had just bought our new RotLA OSTs, we would have passed this cue as "generic" but we'd all have cheered this new, fantastic theme that is the Raiders March (pretty much the same critic that, respectively, "The Jungle Chase" and "Irina's Theme" got last May). Nonetheless, I would say that this cue is what Williams had in mind when constructing the End Credits/concert arrangement, as the final march-like ostinato is the ACTUAL Raiders March ostinato heard in the End Credits (not the very first statement, but those that come after the first presentation of the B theme). Oh, and by the way, I think that the opening of "The Mine Car Chase" is the same of "A Whirl Through Academe", just orchestrated differently (a single, staccato note followed by a not-so-short glissando). I'm fairly sure that played on the piano they would sound near the same. So, yes, "A Whirl Through Academe" DOES sound like "Panaka and the Queen's Protectors" or "Get 'Em, R2!", but hints of this "modern" style could be tracked down into Williams' earlier "style".

I don't have such great compositional skills, but I'm quite good in reproducing melodies by ear... We could give it a try, if you want. Matteo

Wow... One can't even wake up late for just one day, and this is all what happens...

GHO-ram, GHO-ram, GHO-ram SUN-da-rum...