Ludwig

ChrisAfonso · September 12

13 hours ago, karelm said:

Great example, Mark! Why do you think the music during the Battle of Syracuse feels so new? How is JW able to parlay these techniques over decades and still have them sound so fresh?

I think that one of the things that makes Williams' music so incredibly rich is that he's able to cultivate the various aspects of music individually and, in doing so, come up with something that has new elements but that also retains something of what he's done before. So the rhythm of Luke's theme is basically retained in Across the Stars, but the melody, harmony, and orchestration are of course all different. Yet you can still hear the resemblance. Or the harmony of the Force theme underpins the first half of Rey's theme even though the melody, rhythm, etc. are all different. And again, though subtle, the connection can still be heard.

I think it's kind of the same thing here. He keeps the harmony the same (that was a perfect example - he uses a min(add#4) right at the start of The Battle of Syracuse!), but changes the other elements from his older action scoring. So the harmonic rhythm in Syracuse is very slow (one chord for a very long time!) but in his classic action music, he would usually change the chords far more quickly. And maintaining interest in the Syracuse cue is based very much on the ever-changing ostinato and layering melodies overtop of that, as well as using unusual instrumental combinations to create a unique orchestral timbre. So harmonic rhythm really slows down here, and I think that allows for a much different approach to scoring action that can highlight things other than the harmony, and create something that sounds new but not completely disconnected from what he wrote before.

karelm · September 11

16 hours ago, Bayesian said:

It was enlightening, too, to think about the two examples you chose, from 1980 and 1983. You’re discussing advanced harmonic methods he was employing four decades ago—that folks have only relatively recently started grappling with musicologically. Imagine what JW’s worked into his repertoire since then!

Yes, and he continues to use these techniques now, too! This is the moment from The Dial of Destiny where Indy and Helena slide down the pool of water into Archimedes secret chamber. Could have been written for a Star Wars score from 40 years ago - the chords, spacing with the semitone spaced out to a major 7th, chromatic planing of those chords, and of course for the last chord, the leap up of a minor 3rd, a common octatonic move! While his action scoring as a whole is now certainly different than it was back in the day, it's good to see he hasn't abandoned such effective techniques. Without even seeing the scene, it just seems to scream "oh no!", the last chord almost being like the musical equivalent of shouting "aaaaah!".

igger6 · September 9

Yes, but I think you need to be a paying member for that. At the free level, I think you can watch excerpts of it on their site after the event. You can see the different levels here:

https://scoringarts.com/membership-join/

Manakin Skywalker · September 6

For those interested in film score analysis, I'll be giving a virtual guest talk on harmony in John Williams' action music. The talk is with the Academy of Scoring Arts this Sunday, Sep. 10th, from 10am-12pm Pacific Time (they're based in L.A.). I'll be breaking down two cues from the original Star Wars trilogy: "Attacking a Star Destroyer" from The Empire Strikes Back, and "Fight in the Dungeon" (the Rancor scene) from Return of the Jedi. The idea is to give a sense not only of the kinds of chords Williams often uses, but also how he tends to use them in an action scene.

You must be a member to attend, but you can sign up entirely for free on the Academy's website. Here's the link for the talk on the ASA's site (includes a link to sign up with ASA):

https://scoringarts.com/event/the-music-of-john-williams-with-special-guest-mark-richards/

August 5

This is weird. I can't add it to the cart on jwpepper. It says "No new items added. Proceed to cart to finalize order", but nothing gets added to the cart. Also weird is that I tried this earlier today and I could add it, but it said item was not in stock.

I'm hoping this means that the suite is coming soon, but there's nothing listed on Hal Leonard's own site or even Sheet Music Plus. Fingers crossed, though! We've been waiting for this one for a loooooooooooooooooong time.

Tallguy · August 5

1 hour ago, MaxMovieMan said:

Something about the Force theme is so legendary and iconic to me. It emotionally affects me more than any other theme I’ve ever heard so in my opinion that’s my favorite Williams theme even though it’s more like a motif. If not for that though easily Raider’s March. I actually like the B phrase more than the A phrase.

There’s no concert suite Force theme is there?

I've always felt that the opening of "The Rebel Fleet/End Title" from TESB is what a concert version of the Force Theme might sound like since it has a mini B section that leads to a reprise of the theme. And, since the theme is short and almost like a motif as you say, it would make sense to combine it with the Solo and the Princess theme as it is here (another theme from the same film with a very contrasting emotion). So it could be like The Rebellion is Reborn from TLJ, which combines Rose's Theme and the Luke in Exile Theme. You can kind of imagine it if you listen to the first couple of minutes of the cue with that in mind:

BrotherSound · July 18

1 hour ago, BrotherSound said:

It just occurred to me while listening to The Airport that this nervous opening string ostinato seems to be derived from the first four notes of Helena’s theme. @Falstaft @Ludwig Do you agree?

Yes, nice catch! It is of course transformed here, but I think what he's doing is setting it into an octatonic scale because it's an action scene. What really blows me away is that the whole first phrase of Helena's theme set in octatonic is the basis of the first 15 seconds of the cue until it reaches that big landing on C, where it leaves the scale. (That G-flat at the start is one note that deviates from the scale - a common enough occurrence in Williams.) Anyway, it really connects the action music directly to Helena but in a subtle way. Brilliantly done, IMHO.

Falstaft · July 6

I like the way the ostinato at 2:12 comes in sounding at first like an innocuous accompaniment figure, then it beautifully blends with Helena's theme in counterpoint. And more than that, with the varied form of the ostinato (it's second statement and every other one after that), it seems like a variant of the opening figure of Helena's theme (I would say most like the one in its second phrase from 0:50 of "Helena's Theme"), which is more than an ostinato because it works in counterpoint with the melody of Helena's theme. That's what's the most interesting thing to me, almost like Williams is taking a technique that's more from concert music and importing it into his film work.

It's something that is pretty subtle, but hearing the ostinato as related to Helena's theme I think explains why the ostinato blends so well with it.

So compare this:

to this:

ConorPower · July 4

On 03/07/2023 at 8:56 PM, Falstaft said:

I'm curious, do you feel this makes up a grammatical theme in your sense? Discursive maybe? Most of the time, Voller just gets the first few notes, but here it's much more extended.

So, you mean is this a true long-lined theme in the manner of an 8-bar type of theme (grammatical) or something longer and more free-form? (Just translating my own obscure academic terms for fellow JW fans!) What's interesting is that I think pretty much every other statement of Voller's theme is just the opening idea, maybe repeated, so it seems like it's more a motif than a long-lined theme. But here, he stretched it out with more statements and they basically add up to a couple of AAB, or sentence, structures.

It kind of reminds me of how Kylo Ren's aggressive motif becomes something more substantial at the end of TLJ and it almost turns into a full 8 bars. But there, I think Williams writing that was probably related to Ren becoming the accepted leader of the First Order by Hux (though reluctantly). The character becomes more substantial and so does the theme. In DOD, it still feels like a motif even when it's arranged like this, and I think that's because 8-bar themes tend to have a kind of predictability to their phrasing, so you kind of know when each idea and phrase will come to an end. But this use of Voller's theme is so much the opposite! Slow tempo, changing meter, different phrase lengths. It just doesn't feel like a long-lined theme, more like a motif that's being manipulated, if that makes sense.

Falstaft · July 3

1 hour ago, Falstaft said:

I've taken a stab at a more extended version of Voller's motif, as heard in "Voller Returns." As far as I know, this is the longest unfolding of his material in the score. It's a devil to get this metrically accurate, and I'd be especially curious if anyone hears its rhythmic structure differently.

I think it's especially intuitive to place the chromatic figure starting on a downbeat each time. I tried transcribing it as well, and found that my ear was also drawn to the soft timp hits as downbeats, so I added as another factor and came up with this. I think we only differ in the amount of time between phrases, which doesn't always sound exact anyway.

Docteur Qui · March 19

31 minutes ago, Holko said:

Help me jog my memory please, which renditions of it are triple? I'm cycling (heh) through them in my head and it's only the Friendship theme which fits, Flying seems like a 4 to me. The Call could be triple too, actually, never thought about this stuff before.

The theme is in a slow 3 (counting the first 3 melody notes as the main beats), so it's really any rendition that's in that meter. It can have a slightly different feel at that tempo, but I would say the feeling of 3's is still prominent. Take the ones at the end of The Magic of Halloween:

Spoiler

Or the one at the end of The Rescue and Bike Chase:

Spoiler

Jurassic Shark · March 19

Great topic, @Holko. For the flying association, I would add the E.T. flying theme. I'd agree that there's something buoyant about waltz-tempo triple times, and the examples you mention are excellent ones. And you might be onto something with the fairy-tale beauty idea as well. That could explain the triple time of The BFG's main theme, for example. For me, one of the most challenging things with these kinds of discoveries is understanding how strong the association is, meaning how widespread and frequent the connection is. What you provide here is a massive step towards that, so kudos!

When I was working on my course on rhythm and meter last year, I came across a whole bunch of passages in triple time / compound time (basically faster 3's) in Williams that had narrative associations and that were pretty frequent. One that he returns to often is the use of 3's in a slow compound time for sorrow. Examples include the main themes for Angela's Ashes, The Book Thief, Presumed Innocent (also includes mystery as an association), as well as Petticoat Lane, Across the Stars, Jedi Steps, and the new Obi-Wan theme. There were other associations, but that was the one that seemed to have the most examples I came across (aside from the action music association you mention, of course!).

Falstaft · January 29

2 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

The best kind of post! Everyone, @DomSewell's work is amazing and if you haven't already checked out his videos, you owe it to yourself to do so. His analyses go into a level of detail and sophistication for JW's music that I'm not sure anyone else has. And that level of detail is, I feel, fully warranted by all the amazing things he keeps on discovering!

I heartily second this. @DomSewell has done analysis videos on every cue in The Phantom Menace, and has been working through The Empire Strikes Back up to now. His work is on a forensic level of detail, so you can find commentary on practically every moment of these cues. Fine work, Dom, and keep it up!

On 27/01/2023 at 4:46 AM, DomSewell said:

there's not as much information on JW's atonalism: pc set theory doesn't always tell the whole story with Williams who often combines atonalism with advanced harmony.

Absolutely! I'm working on concepts right now for the next action course that tackles some of his more difficult harmonies to label. Not atonal, but not fully tonal either. So hopefully more people will add their voice to discussing these kinds of chords, because many of them are at the heart of much of Williams' film writing.

Falstaft · December 17, 2022

7 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Remarkable! Who knew. The reedy instrumentation really lends it a different affect. And structurally, it puts a new spin on the theme -- perhaps the most "four-square" AABA form it's ever been in. Kind of like that unused statement of Kylo Ren's theme in TFA 2m17 that is in a traditional fourfold structure. What say you, @Ludwig?

In this form, it's a lot like the "ancestral" theme from Far and Away, which has the very same kind of large AABA form, where B is a variation of A, and funnily enough, that theme has very similar pitches and melodic shape as well, and is even in the same key of D minor:

Coincidence?

Chen G. · November 10, 2022

4 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Both the Holman and the Donington are on the Internet Archive thankfully

https://archive.org/details/wagnersringliste0000holm

https://archive.org/details/DoningtonWagnersRingAndItsSymbols1969311p

It doesn't really matter to me how definitive the text is, but how useful of a listening companion/guide it is.

I have the Holman and find it a superb resource. I use it mainly to look up leitmotifs quickly and with good information like where they first occur according to the Schrimer vocal score, how they relate to other motifs, what's happening in the drama when heard, etc. And there's the concordance, if you're interested in learning more about the story and how it all fits together, it cites all references in the translated libretti to each keyword they give there. The Donington is just ok IMHO. I love the Holman, though.

And actually, if you're looking for something to learn from while listening, I highly recommend The Ring Disc. Yes, it's old now, but so good! It gives you the vocal score and running analytical commentary while playing the Solti recordings of all four operas. Great for learning the leitmotifs in an in-time way. And it's on the Internet Archive as well:

https://archive.org/details/the_ring_disc

BB-8 · November 8, 2022

Here's my transcription of the sample for "Reflections", the first four bars of which also return in "The Letter".

Disco Stu · October 17, 2022

3 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

You can hear this approach to melody right up through Obi-Wan and Helena's themes from this year.

Yes! The one in Helena is more in what @Falstaft labels the A portion of the theme in his transcription back in that thread (the kind of introductory-sounding statement we get before the full-fledged version he labels A'). Though there he stretches the notes of second cell out to double the length.

I even think there's a hint if it in Rey's theme, where the cell is 3 notes in the first bar and only 2 in the second. The technique probably warrants even more study. But it was something I first noticed in the 3 themes I discuss.

MrJosh · October 17, 2022

In this video, I explore how John Williams adds memorability and interest to some of his most famous themes with a rhythmic technique I call "Cell Repetition with Divider". Enjoy!

Edit: Video updated!

pete · October 9, 2022

Went to see this today at the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. The orchestra played so well throughout, it was a pure delight. It was great to hear different details come through the score than what I've heard on the OST or in the film recording. This was especially the case in the quieter moments, when I could hear, for example, the piano when BB-8 runs away from the battle at the start of the film, or the oboe solo when Maz tells Rey the people she's waiting for aren't coming back. Things like that really added more humanity to these scenes. Act One ended with the big statement of the First Order theme they use near the start of the film when we cut back to the First Order ships, and Act Two began with a very abbreviated form of the concert version of Rey's Theme. I think the best thing about this performance was that I got to hear the score louder than I've ever heard with the film before, as though with a better mix in a recorded film. And the live element, as I say, just gave it more humanity and warmth. Top notch performance. If you get the chance to go, it's really worth it!

artguy360 · September 19, 2022

I think when we feel that Williams reaches a kind of perfection with a scene or theme, then it always seems to be a great example of his talent for aligning many musical parameters toward similar or compatible sorts of expressions. In other words, it is the melody's aching leaps and steps, it is the gorgeous harmony, it is the warm scoring, the sturdy bass pedal point, the simple major scale, the yearning countermelody, and so on. It would be hard enough to come up with a great solution in just one of these parameters, but when they all coordinate? Perfection indeed!

This is golden-age Williams at his finest and it never ceases to boggle my mind how simple it sounds but how complex it can be to unpack.

September 3, 2022

9 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

It's not just the rubato that makes it fun but tricky to transcribe, but the metrical flexibility. I think the first, most provisional statement of the theme alternates 3/4 and 4/4 for a bit -- gives it a kind of tentative, finding its way quality, don't you think?

Yes, it's a bit like the Obi-Wan intro, where the theme hasn't yet solidified into it's final form until the whole orchestra gets going. He seems to like these provisional intros to his themes in these later scores. Even the Victory theme opening "The Rise of Skywalker" track has that provisional quality even if it's a bit more formed in that case.

14 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

What do you make of the figure that he repeats and sequences starting at m. 10 -- could it be a very, very distant cousin of the main motif from the Raiders March, the way it spans a rising 6th and then repeats a step lower?

Could be! I'm hearing several places where it also sounds a bit like Marion's theme (as others have noted above), so those sequences can sound a bit like the 6th and 7th notes of Marion's theme, if only in rhythm and contour, not so much interval.

ConorPower · September 3, 2022

4 hours ago, Falstaft said:

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Wow, @Ludwig, we are possessed by the same need to transcribe, aren't we!

Here's my own attempt, just of the opening first minute and a half. We can compare notes, literally!

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Helena.tif 263.47 kB · 0 downloads

I think we match! You're probably right about the rhythm of the triplet being changed to quarter-eighth-eighth in the 2nd bar of your 2nd-last line. There's just so much rubato in the piece, I went for the straight rhythms instead.

And bravo for including the harmony! Will make a fine addition to your Indy catalogue!

EDIT: After listening again, I changed the triplet I had in my m. 10 to the quarter-plus-eighths. Williams loves little changes like that, so I could see that being the case.

artguy360 · September 3, 2022

Beautiful theme!

Just so we can get a sense of what the actual melody of the theme is, I did a transcription of the theme proper (minus the intro, middle section, and coda) . There are two statements - the first in the strings at 0:29, the second in the horn at 2:33 (I reposted the great-sounding video from @crumbs):

TSMefford · June 21, 2022

It really depends on what you're looking to do. If you actually want to perform some written music, probably a full 88 keys is better. Then you can hear the pitches as written and never have to leave out or rearrange any notes. But it's totally possible to just learn to read music on a small instrument. You might also think of what space you have for it and whether that's a factor as well.

Jay · June 20, 2022

7 hours ago, Jay said:

I'm in!

Great. The main thing is, you can practice with it as much as you like with all the interactive elements. I hope you find it to have everything you're looking for!

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