Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Posts posted by Ludwig

  1. 9 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

    It's not just the rubato that makes it fun but tricky to transcribe, but the metrical flexibility. I think the first, most provisional statement of the theme alternates 3/4 and 4/4 for a bit -- gives it a kind of tentative, finding its way quality, don't you think?


    Yes, it's a bit like the Obi-Wan intro, where the theme hasn't yet solidified into it's final form until the whole orchestra gets going. He seems to like these provisional intros to his themes in these later scores. Even the Victory theme opening "The Rise of Skywalker" track has that provisional quality even if it's a bit more formed in that case.


    14 minutes ago, Falstaft said:

    What do you make of the figure that he repeats and sequences starting at m. 10 -- could it be a very, very distant cousin of the main motif from the Raiders March, the way it spans a rising 6th and then repeats a step lower?


    Could be! I'm hearing several places where it also sounds a bit like Marion's theme (as others have noted above), so those sequences can sound a bit like the 6th and 7th notes of Marion's theme, if only in rhythm and contour, not so much interval.

  2. 4 hours ago, Falstaft said:

    Wow, @Ludwig, we are possessed by the same need to transcribe, aren't we!


    Here's my own attempt, just of the opening first minute and a half. We can compare notes, literally!



    Helena.tif 263.47 kB · 0 downloads


    I think we match! You're probably right about the rhythm of the triplet being changed to quarter-eighth-eighth in the 2nd bar of your 2nd-last line. There's just so much rubato in the piece, I went for the straight rhythms instead.


    And bravo for including the harmony! Will make a fine addition to your Indy catalogue!


    EDIT: After listening again, I changed the triplet I had in my m. 10 to the quarter-plus-eighths. Williams loves little changes like that, so I could see that being the case.

  3. It really depends on what you're looking to do. If you actually want to perform some written music, probably a full 88 keys is better. Then you can hear the pitches as written and never have to leave out or rearrange any notes. But it's totally possible to just learn to read music on a small instrument. You might also think of what space you have for it and whether that's a factor as well.

  4. So this is interesting. In the "cutting room floor" book cited above, Hirsch says "Ben [Burtt] also came up with Erich Korngold's Oscar-winning theme from the 1938 Robin Hood to play under the crawl at the beginning of the movie. George [Lucas] had experimented with something from Kurosawa, but we all ganged up on him and got him to change it. It was just too bizarre and didn't capture the heroic spirit."


    But in Rinzler's The Making of Star Wars, Hirsch is quoted as saying "we used music from Ivanhoe by Rózsa for the main title."


    This is the same person saying they used two different pieces for the main title! It's pretty clear that the Rózsa is essentially the model for the Star Wars main title. Maybe Robin Hood was used at one point then changed out for Ivanhoe, but if so, there isn't really any trace left of it. Sounds like he's probably misremembering in the newer "cutting room floor" book (2020), the Rinzler being from 2007.

  5. 3 hours ago, karelm said:

    I always felt this cue was an homage to another blockbuster spectacle arena parade sequence, Ben Hur's Parade of the Charioteers.  So, I felt this had to be written for this sequence specific arena parade sequence. 


    That may well be! It does seem like the perfect spot to refer to Ben-Hur. But if that's true musically, it's odd that the portion of the Flag Parade that sounds like the Ben-Hur parade is a tiny transitional bit buried in the middle of the cue, and that the main Flag Parade theme has very little in common with the Ben-Hur march aside from a general modal-ish sound. But the funny thing is, that imitative quartal bit I mentioned earlier, if alluding to the original main title (taken along with the other similarities mentioned above), it would come from Williams channeling Ròzsa's Ivanhoe overture, which was the temp track for the 1977 Star Wars main title.


    So one way or another, it's definitely Ròzsa-derived!

  6. 7 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

    Hmm, no one’s mentioned The Flag Parade yet? It starts with a big blast of brass in B-flat major (perfect to follow the Fox Fanfare), then a broad, majestic theme with a march feel, a contrasting more lyrical section, and then returning to the first theme, this time even more dramatic. Notably, the secondary theme is considerably more fleshed out in the concert arrangement.

    If this alternate main title idea ever made it past the conceptual stage and there’s some trace of it in the score, I’d bet this would be it


    Yes! Completely agree. There are also a couple of other points I'd mention:


    1) The scoring at the start has that "shimmering" quality with a high tremolo in the strings and winds


    2) Really striking to my ears is the bit from 0:50-0:56 that sounds suspiciously like the opening fanfare of the original - a similar Bb quartal harmony arpeggiated and imitated among the brass. I've queued it up here for comparison:



    It certainly sounds like it was modeled on the original main title, so I'd agree this may well have been considered for prequel main-title material.

  7. 11 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

    Never count on German interview overdubs to be faithful translations of what was originally said.


    Thanks, Marian. I think I was trying to support what I heard with something more substantial than "I heard it this way". But now I know better! Anyway, it seems Jay and I now agree. And yes, @Jay you're right, it is easier to watch his mouth, which is what I was doing and didn't say. Sorry for all the fuss!

  8. 6 minutes ago, Jay said:

    From what I can hear under the overdubbing, he says "I thought maybe we'd do four", not "I thought 4 was enough"


    But its a bit hard to tell for sure...


    I checked the German subtitles given with the interview and for that bit, it says "Ich dachte, vier Folgen wären genug", which translates as "I thought four episodes were enough". And listening again, it sounds to me like "four is enough." But I mean, if we have to resort to this to find out, then yeah, it's definitely hard to hear!


    Also, teeny tiny point: about Spielberg's film, he says "which is not titled yet, but is very, very interesting" and again the German says the same with "der hat noch keinen Titel, ist aber sehr interessant".

  9. One can dream what a Williams score to a film based on a film scored by Lalo Schifrin would sound like, even if it never comes to pass. Personally I think it would be really interesting as Schifrin was more influenced by jazz and Williams grew up with that music himself. It might be a more classically tamed version of what Schifrin did, or you could say a more overtly jazzy version of what Williams might normally do. Either way, would be cool.

  10. On 21/02/2022 at 6:06 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

    I think it has a lot to do with structure.


    Perhaps @Ludwig has some thoughts to share on this?


    Williams' film music has a very improvisational feel to it (understandably given his jazz background) and I think it serves his highly coordinated style of scoring very well, catching and clarifying many of the nuances of the events onscreen. And because the feeling in his scores can change on a dime, it can be microedited so as to improve the flow, as @Jay says, removing bits that may interrupt that continuity. If his music were more constantly thematic, say more like How to Train Your Dragon, it probably couldn't be microedited very well. That said, I agree with many here that it's the choices that are made on the OSTs as to what it microedited and how that can sometimes detract from the cue's flow.


    But I think his music probably fares better than many would with such editing because of the improvisational aspect, meaning that we don't usually feel that the music must go any particular place, only that when it does, it creates an appropriate kind of emotional shape for the scene at hand. I think that's probably one of the (many!) reasons why we love his music so much, anyway.

  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.