Ludwig

I decided to bump this thread for a question I have regarding a recurring compositional technique found in some of JW's cues. It involves the blending of a triad (usually minor) or seventh chord (usually dominant) with dissonant atonal sets, as in the cue "In the Jungle" from Raiders we discussed recently with minor triads and (014)s, or in "You Bred Raptors" from Jurassic Park, where there is an E-flat minor triad in the strings at the start combined with C#-G-A, D-F#(-D)-F, which breaks down into a (026) and a (014). I'm wondering if anyone has come across this precise technique in the music of any 20th-century composers. I'm not looking for suggestions of a composer that may have influenced JW. Only passages that you know that have used this or something very close to it.

Nah. Analyzing music is what I do. Ask me to produce an album the way you do, ted, and I wouldn't have the foggiest.

Is this using "prime form"...trying to understand this technique. The pitches from C would be C,G#,B......right ...for 0,8,11...yet inverted that would be C,,B,G#.....which counting in semitones from C is 0,1,4, Yes, prime form. It's the most concise and abstract (thus flexible) way to describe a set. I would use wavy brackets to describe a particular ordered set, so {0,8,11}. Square brackets are often used for the "normal form" of a set, which always describes the pitch classes in ascending order in the most concise way. So {0,8,11} would become [8,11,0]. And with prime form, it's the most concise way of writing the set of either the ascending or descending forms. That is, the smallest intervals occur first in the set and the interval from first to last note is the smallest possible in the set. So, yes, {0,8,11} becomes (014) because of what you said, if you go down from C, you get your first pitch class (0), a semitone (1), then a major third (4). Set theory is best describing non-triadic sets because funny things happen when you apply set theory to triads that have a tonal function. Major and minor chords, for example, are the same set class (037), and so are dominant and half-diminished sevenths (0258). Clearly, these are different chords in tonal terms. In post-tonal terms, however, it is possible to use triads without suggesting a tonic, so set theory may well work there.

Yes, wasn't that unexpected? His wife isn't interested in music??? What do they talk about then?

That trumpet lick is the retrograde inversion of the prime row. It's - Bb-C#-D-B-C-D#-E-F-Ab-G-#F-A. You've got it right, discounting the missing C natural. But there is no C in the lick. At least I don't hear one. You can't hear the minor third leap between the C and D#? Listen again. Oh, THAT C. Sorry, brain fart. Let's try this again: Interestingly, the change from D to C didn't change the (014) set. I have to agree. It's the riff that makes the theme great. The row could have been composed in many ways and still turned out the same. That riff is magic.

Interesting that he considers his themes to have a sense of inevitability to them. That's how so many of us would characterize them, so it's nice to see that's consciously on his mind when composing.

That trumpet lick is the retrograde inversion of the prime row. It's - Bb-C#-D-B-C-D#-E-F-Ab-G-#F-A. You've got it right, discounting the missing C natural. But there is no C in the lick. At least I don't hear one.

Interestingly, the opening trumpet lick is also constructed of the same sets (though not in a serial way like the tune you point out that follows it):

Thanks again, Datameister for this detailed analysis. You've broken the ice and given us a great starting point for discussion of this great cue. Kudos. I've now been through the first 14 bars of it and can say the following. I would agree with the D locrian setting of the opening. I'm always a bit sceptical of using modes as a means of analysis in music where there doesn't seem to be a governing tonic for very long or even at all because I don't think that's actually how we hear that kind of music. But here it seems pretty clear that the cello flourish is in that mode, which wouldn't be too convincing on its own. But notice that the parallel minor chords you point out are actually all contained within that mode as well. And because D is clearly sounded as a pedal in these first few bars and a D minor triad emerges in m. 3, I think it's actually useful to call it D locrian, though a D locrian that's obscured by the unusual harmonies that open the cue. Your skills at chordal analysis are excellent as usual. What I would love to see more of is a sense of how you feel the chords, lines, and notes of the cue go together and are drawn into some kind of unity. Admittedly, it gets more interpretive that way, but it would make things very interesting to discuss. As you are someone who's studied these scores and sketches in such vast detail, it would be great to know how you conceive of the larger spans of music. I'll add my thoughts, which are, as I say, a matter of interpretation. I see a number of unifying elements in these first 14 bars (some of which you've mentioned as observations in particular spots in the cue): 1) Parallel minor chords (sometimes with added notes) 2) Bass notes giving a sense of tonal centre 3) Transposition of chords and melodic lines by semitone 4) The atonal set (014) - this is equivalent to the (0,8,11) you often cite, but (014) is its more proper and concise name as an atonal set 5) The atonal set (013), which might be construed as a variation of the (014) that we first hear in the cue For 1), we've both already noticed the parallel chords in the first two bars. Then of course there are the EbmM7 and F#mM7 chords in m. 4, also in parallel. There is also a very similar Ebm(add9) chord in the next bar you didn't mention. It's not parallelism, but it's close to it. This kind of thing happens a lot, where there's almost a pattern but it's off by a note or two. "Fuzzy" parallelism, you might call it. As for 2), the bass seems to represent a tonic with most notes, especially when accompanied by consonant minor chords overtop. In mm. 6-8, the texture here is dyadic, with consonances between the lines that usually suggest minor chords due to the minor 3rds between them (as on the downbeats of mm. 7 and 8). Still, the chords are not fully formed here - i.e., when does a minor 3rd suggest a minor chord and when it is just a minor 3rd? In mm. 9-14, the melody almost always forms minor 3rds with the bass on strong beats. As I've said in most blog posts before, Williams frequently uses parallel (and therefore anti-functional) minor chords for scenes of mystery like this one. 3) is most evident in three places so far. The haunting alto flute melody we hear begins on an A, then is transposed (and varied) in m. 6 to start a semitone higher on Bb. The bass also rises from D to Eb at this point. Another place is in mm. 9-10, where we have those eerie parallel minor chords again, now descending by semitones from Gm to F#m to Fm. And the third place is, similarly, in mm. 12-14, where the bass and melody again form minor 3rds to suggest minor chords, and again drop down in semitones, the bass tracing F#-F-E. 4) and 5) should be considered together as I implied. And both come up in several places. What's crucial to understand here is that the set (014) or (013) is not a motive in the traditional sense where you have a certain order of notes (say, the first seven notes of the Star Wars main theme), but is rather a collection of abstract intervals that may sound in any order, and may even be "composed out" with intervening notes, thus being somewhat hidden. What (014) means is that you have a collection that involves a starting note (which we arbitrarily call "0"), a note one semitone away from that note, and another note 4 semitones away from the starting note (in the same direction as the initial semitone). Hence (014). (013) would mean almost the same, a starting note, a note a semitone away, and another note 3 semitones away in the same direction. Consider the opening melodic gesture in the alto flute, which has A-Bb-G-Eb-Gb. We can break this down into two overlapping sets. A-Bb-G would be a (013) and G-Eb-Gb a (014), so the melody there is a combination of the two. Now consider the bass line in mm. 6-7, which has D-Db-F-D. Again, these combine to form a (014). In mm. 8-10, the bass goes E-C#-G-F#-F, which doesn't seem to have this pattern. But the G-F# may be thought of as intervening notes between the C# and F, thus E-C#(-G-F#)-F. Without these intervening notes, we have E-C#-F, which form another (014). It's as though the G "overshoots" the F then falls by semitone down to it to complete the (014). That's the kind of hidden statement I was talking about. But again, this is interpretation, so feel free to disagree. In mm. 11-13, the bass then has D-F#-F, yet another (014). Another spot that these sets come in is in the intense string chords that enter at m. 11. There, the chords on the second half of each bar are dissonant chords. In m. 11, F-C#-D, or (014). In m. 12, F#-D#-E, or (013), in m. 13, E-C#-D#, or (013), and in m. 14, E-C#-D, another (013). That's all I have time for at the moment. Once again, thanks for your analysis. Always a pleasure to read.

Well written, informative, detailed, and to the point. Well done, Inky. You know, it's funny. You said the score "might be best described musically as meeting an old and welcome friend." I read another review just this morning that said the score is "almost like a comforting letter from an old friend." Given the subjectivity of interpreting music, it's fascinating to see that Williams' music can evoke such similar imagery in listeners. A sure sign of quality music, especially for film. Thank you. Oh and you are refering to Mr. Southall's review. Yes I just read it myself and found it funny how similarly we described the feeling we got from the score. Not a bad thing of course. That's the one. No, as I said, I think it speaks very highly of the music to evoke such similar reactions. Composers strive for this to communicate whatever it is they have to say. And in this case, it seems that the message is loud and clear, as is so often the case with Williams.

Well written, informative, detailed, and to the point. Well done, Inky. You know, it's funny. You said the score "might be best described musically as meeting an old and welcome friend." I read another review just this morning that said the score is "almost like a comforting letter from an old friend." Given the subjectivity of interpreting music, it's fascinating to see that Williams' music can evoke such similar imagery in listeners. A sure sign of quality music, especially for film.

On the other hand, those who feel that rock/pop elements were underrepresented in film music in previous decades are more likely to celebrate the trends that prevail today. Surely, which is why there's no definitive answer to the question. It is a matter of taste. But my guess is that the majority of members here do feel a loss of sorts in contemporary film music. We should put it to a vote. Steef, whose glass?

There has been a gradual change in emphasis in film scoring of mainstream Hollywood films, especially action and fantasy-based films, over the past couple of decades. Essentially that change went from an emphasis on full melodies, a rich harmonic palette, and longer phrase structures, as in most Williams scores (Shore's LOTR is something of an exception), to an emphasis instead on rock-based rhythms, novel instrumental timbres, and textural layering of various recorded loops. Coming from a rock/pop background meant that these latter traits brought with them a simplified approach to melody, harmony, and phrase structure in favour of the former traits. Those who especially prize the former features are the ones who are most likely to be disappointed by the new ones and feel that something has been "lost" in most contemporary film scores. And especially for those who feel that way, it's a good thing there are still new Williams scores.

Probably the one composer who has created a tremendous legacy but did not receive credit from the Academy is Ennio Morricone. His spaghetti western scores created the sound for westerns, to the extent that it's parodied all over the place. But fully none of them were even nominated. And actually, he's still never won an Oscar for any score, only been granted that Honorary Oscar, which certainly isn't the same thing.

That's perfect. Thank you. It reminds me of the way Beethoven wrote the themes for his pieces. You can see in his sketchbooks line after line of the same theme being gradually honed and refined until finally arriving at the theme as it appears in the score. Let's not forget, though, that Williams has said that writing the score after the themes are settled is "relatively easy". So he seems to have a two-pronged approach to composing film scores. First, the arduous and meticulous carving out of the thematic material, and second, the much more fluent and easier process of working that material out as the actual score. So, if I may, a "Beethovenian" approach to the composition of his basic material followed by a more "Mozartian" ease of scoring thereafter.

I do too, but they're so time consuming, they had to be a "nice to have" rather than a "must have" this time around. The Morricone posts will need them for sure.

Ah yes, thank you. One does have to piece the theme together from different clips as they are. And yes, it is basically a sentence, though what I've called a developing sentence to be more specific since the second two bars are a varied (and not direct) repetition of the first two bars. Though there still is something strange about the second half of the sentence (not shown in your sketch above) - as so often in Williams, we have essentially four statements of the same idea. There's no fragmentation as is typical of sentences, but there is harmonic acceleration, as is most evident by the change of bass off the pedal of the first four bars. All this is to say that I think there's an intersection between a sentence and another type of theme with four similar ideas in a row (which as yet has no name, nor has it even been recognized) since sentences never have this kind of fourfold statement of an idea. (In other words, it would be a sentence/new theme type). This is different from, say, the Imperial March, which is much more sentence-like due to its fragmentation in the second half. I've been meaning to ask you (maybe i have already) (though I should probably do it in private, but maybe anyone else is interested) You have studied and you are teaching about Beethoven. You haven't come across a single instance of a theme like that? That's correct. In the classical approach to theme writing, the function of each musical unit as a beginning or ending is generally made exceedingly clear. For example, the repetition of an opening idea will usually signal that the beginning is ongoing. Then the theme will move on to a cadential progression or some kind of acceleration, both of which signal an upcoming ending. If an idea were to be repeated to the theme's end, this would confuse matters as the beginning seems to also be the end. So in classical music, a normal sentence would go (by the way, for those who aren't familiar with the term, a "sentence" is a musical theme type that with a model 8-bar form that has the following structure): Opening Idea (2 bars) - Opening Idea (2 bars) - Acceleration (1 + 1 bar) - Cadence (2 bars) But in The Book Thief theme, we have: Opening Idea (2 bars) - Varied Opening Idea (2 bars) - Varied Opening Idea (2 bars) - Varied Opening Idea (2 bars) (Acceleration - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -) So there's still a sentence structure underneath, but it's united with four statements of the same idea, and since that's so atypical of the way we generally analyze 8-bar themes, I would say it's an important feature that deserves to be described in the name of the theme type. But again, since this four-idea theme does not occur in classical music (not that I know of, anyway), it hasn't been given a name.

Below is a link to my brief analysis of thematic transformation in Rozsa's monumental score for Ben-Hur. There's just so much to talk about in this score, I could have been here writing this post all year. Instead, I focused on three of the main leitmotifs in the score: Esther, Friendship, and Hatred. Enjoy! http://www.filmmusicnotes.com/thematic-transformation-in-rozsas-score-for-ben-hur/

Ah yes, thank you. One does have to piece the theme together from different clips as they are. And yes, it is basically a sentence, though what I've called a developing sentence to be more specific since the second two bars are a varied (and not direct) repetition of the first two bars. Though there still is something strange about the second half of the sentence (not shown in your sketch above) - as so often in Williams, we have essentially four statements of the same idea. There's no fragmentation as is typical of sentences, but there is harmonic acceleration, as is most evident by the change of bass off the pedal of the first four bars. All this is to say that I think there's an intersection between a sentence and another type of theme with four similar ideas in a row (which as yet has no name, nor has it even been recognized) since sentences never have this kind of fourfold statement of an idea. (In other words, it would be a sentence/new theme type). This is different from, say, the Imperial March, which is much more sentence-like due to its fragmentation in the second half.

Which clip is the top line from exactly?

Nice work. There ought to be more music like this being written today.

LOL - "obstinato". That's a more appropriate name than the proper "ostinato".

There's that, but I also think there's trumpets and horns around middle C playing triads. I can definitely hear fifths there. They're pretty buried if that's the case. Perhaps we can say that the F# sonority in this one lies somewhere between a contrapuntal construction and a true chord or polychord, with neither one taking precedence over the other. I think that might better explain the "fuzziness" of the passage through its highly dissonant texture. Great job, though I hear the third chord (bar 6) as Gm/Bb rather than Bb. There is an F in there, but I suppose you mean you hear it as Gm7/Bb. Hard to know in this case which interpretation works better.

Yes, Neapolitan it is. Only John Williams knows what John Williams thinks when he's composing. In this theme, there is a strong sense of flow even as the foregrounded tonal centre shifts around. That probably has to do with using a pivot chord as the new tonality emerges rather than suddenly shifting as, say, Korngold often does.

Not in the HULK example. I can actually hear triads there - EM - F#M - G#m etc. Point taken on MOS, though. The bass is doubled in 3rds by the high violins, well above the ostinato, to give the sound (perhaps "illusion") of a triad. It depends on what we hear as consonant. I hear the ostinato as the governing harmonic notes when the F# is in the bass, so still hear it as a passing figure, though doubled in 3rds octaves higher. I think if the ostinato wasn't there, I would agree that there is a VI-VII-I progression, but I find it difficult with the static quality of the harmony through the ostinato. Interesting. I think part of the reason why this passage works well is that the notes of the ostinato can be interpreted differently in terms of consonance and dissonance with each new chord underneath. Clearly at the start, the A is a dissonance resolving up to Bb. But in your bar 3, it becomes a consonance. The reverse happens with the Bb. It also helps that the G in the ostinato blends well with all of the chords in the passage you show. It may not have been this "carefully" worked out, but I think it's pretty clear just using one's ears and finding what brings the most pleasure as you remind us that Debussy once said.