Ludwig
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Posts posted by Ludwig
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well, when i say a phrygian II, i mean a chord that occurs naturally in that mode. Yes, borrowed from that mode.
So, if you see a fa-lab-do in C major, you will say that it's just a chromatic IV, and not a IV borrowed from the minor mode?
By the way, i just read this in a hamrony book that Ludwig had suggested to me:
-bII (Phrygian II) in minor is a major triad built on lowered 2ˆ.
-bI(6) sometimes occurs in major, though it is less frequent than in minor and more difficult to use convincingly. It is most easily
approached through bVI and through I6. For convenience in reading, bII is sometimes notated enharmonically, especially in keys
with four or more flats.
I would be interested to hear others' opinion on this too.
If we encounter such a chord in major, we can't say that it's a phrygian II, or II borrowed from phrygian?
You will see it called Phrygian II, bII, or the Neapolitan (though usually only when in first inversion as "Neapolitan 6th"). Any of these mean the same thing.
Probably the reason why this chord sounds so natural in the Raiders march is that we hear a form of the regular ii chord in bar 2 (the root D is heard in the pickup to the bar and still contributes to the harmony there; and the G there can be heard as either a pedal point or as part of a Dsus chord - this is confirmed with later statements of the theme, where we actually get the sixth degree of the scale to flesh out that ii chord as re-fa-la). When he begins to repeat the first four bars in bar 5, it starts off the same but then diverges into the bII chord as a chromatic variant of what we heard before.
This kind of preparation prevents the chord from sounding jarring, insincere, or worse, even tacky. It's probably the most natural use of bII I've ever heard in a major key.
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But were it harmonized with a III the progression would sound very Williamseque imo....
The reason I came up with it was that V7/V-I isnt very logical, is it?
Indeed it's not very logical, and I think that's part of the point of using the progression - as I mention in my blog analysis, that it shifts the progression into the realm of the strange and ethereal. In terms of function, V/V is a form of subdominant. And tonic-subdominant-tonic progressions are common enough. This one just gives us a tinge of the strange to suggest something magical.
Besides, it's not a totally incoherent progression. After all, V7/V can proceed to the cadential 6/4, which has the same notes as the tonic chord. So one could say that it's an unusual, even illogical, progression, but one that still results in smooth and understandable voice leading.
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I dont know, regarding the Indy sample I think the G in the bass mainly stresses the dominant function. The Supeman example is actually more like I-V progression (half cadence). Except for the F it's actually just a C maj chord; there's no A in the chord, it just doesnt sound like a IV to me.
Fair enough. But I wondered why I hear such a strong subdominant sound to the Superman chord (bar 4, beat 1), and I thought I was losing my mind until I realized that the Signature Edition has been deceiving me. The trombones sound an F as the lowest note of the chord (besides the pedal of course), which then rises up a step to G. The Signature Edition only shows G in the trombones all the way through the bar. The original sketch has F. That gives it such a strong IV-V-like sound that the first chord still carries something of a subdominant feel to me, even though I think it is dominant in function. In other words, had the chord been an upbeat to the bar, I would probably call it Fmaj7sus2 rather than G13sus4, which oddly enough has the same notes.
And all performances of this march where Williams conducts, we hear this low F in the trombone.
Like here:
Here:
And even here:
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In those passages I hear it as an appogiatura chord of the dominant. (i hope I used the right term, since English is not my native language, there's always a mix-up with the terminology)
In the wider region of the theme, yes, i would say this can be part of the dominant function.
I would agree. It's funny how rhythmic placement can mean so much to harmonic function. What I mean is, if the same chord had been an upbeat to the bar instead of a downbeat, I think it may well be heard as subdominant in function rather than dominant.
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I would say it's mainly G7sus4 (add13) (functioning as the dominant resolving to C).
I guess that's really my question is whether it's a dominant or a predominant (subdominant) in function. I rather hear it as a dominant, but Karelm, does calling it some kind of F chord mean you hear it as basically predominant? I'm just curious.
Just so everyone's clear what we're talking about, here's a comparison of the two passages.
Superman - 1st chord of bar 4:
Indy - 1st chord of bar 7 (and on strong beats thereafter):
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Great tunes. One thing is that interesting chord, D flat major/G flat clashes quite a bit and he repeats it several times before resolving to C major and the big repeat of the theme making it feel like such a release of tension by repeating that G flat against D flat maj. The D flat maj wants to resolve by step to C major but JW resists by holding off for a few bars so when it does go to C maj sounds like a major achievement. I realize the same technique at the end of India Jones theme before the repeat. 1:34 of this video:
No one does this thing as well as JW.
Another great chord, Karelm! The one you point out at 1:34 in the video above occurs in the opening phrase of the Superman March. It's in exactly the same chord in the same key and scored in very much the same way. To me it sounds like an alternative to the old "cadential 6/4" chord, which in C major (the key of both Indy and Superman) would go G-C-E to G-B-D. Williams instead adds an F to the chord, but resolves the chord slightly differently in each case. In Indy, it goes to a Gsus4 chord, whereas in Superman it goes to the pure G chord (over a tonic pedal of course).
I'm curious if anyone knows any common label for this chord, F-G-C-E resolving to a G of some kind. It's easy enough to give it some name like G13sus4, but it seems a bit cumbersome. Any other ideas?
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This may have less to do with the actual makeup of the chord and more to do with the context and instrumentation, but I love the chord at 3:20, it really hits the listeners like a jolt through the heart.
I'd love to see exactly what that chord is. Very effective - dissonant as hell!
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JW's oeuvre is full of moments like that. I was listening to A.I. a few days ago and once again I got misty-eyed during the moment in "The Search for the Blue Fairy", specifically the B-section of the theme. The way it kicks in (at 3:42) and goes upward (at 3:57), how it modulates again (at 4:01) and finally how it melts into pure sublimation (at 4:10) and then releases the tension (at 4:29), going back to the A-section.
This moment is one of the highest peak in Williams career imho. You can almost see a divine inspiration guiding his brain.
Wow, that really is gorgeous, Maurizio, for just the reasons you said. It makes me wonder what other wonderful things Williams would do with the voice if he used it more regularly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he express some trepidation in working with the voice, or some such thing?
Datameister - those weird jazzy chords are exactly what I'm talking about. Could you please give us one or two specific examples, even if they're familiar (or not!). I'm curious to know what sorts of things others hear in Williams.
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This is not necessarily a music theory thread, I just want to know what chords or chord progressions are some of your favorites in JW's scores. They can be completely normal chords but maybe used in a powerful or emotive way. Or they can be unusual chords that through their strangeness give the music its power.
I'll start things off. The chord in the Superman March at 2:51 below has always blown me away, especially when it resolves to the more normal chord at 2:56 and of course then onto the cadence at 3:00 for a really satisfying resolution. The initial chord is just so "supernaturally" grandiose, as is so appropriate for the film and character:
What is among your favorites?
- karelm, Sergeant and The Five Tones
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Yes! That's up there for me too. "A moose once bit by sister"... "no really!"
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Believe it or not but I've never seen these Eastwood spaggheti westerns with Morricone music.
This genre is not really my thing, and the same with the music..
maybe I should give it a try sometime..
Start with the very best - The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
<-- Trust me, you'll be like this when you see it! It's a movie that everyone can like. Eli Wallach as Tuco is priceless. You'll love it! -
This is it for me - it's just so incredibly engrossing. Nothing matches it, IMO:
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I was searching around the web for other analyses of Hedwig's Theme and came across a thread in a music theory forum. Someone was asking about the penultimate chord of the A theme (the F#7), saying that was the only one that didn't fit a traditional analysis. It got a response from the moderator there which seemed apropos here. I'm not absolutely certain, but if my hunch is right, this respondent is one of the big names in the pedagogy of music theory today. Anyway, the comment is worth reproducing here. In this light, should we talk about chords in the traditional way in this piece? My own analysis implies that we can but that there are several distortions of traditional progressions. Have your say...
This is not a Common Practice piece, so analyzing it with Common Practice concepts and terminology might not be all that illuminating.
There are two far crazier chords here - the Gm and Fm (in 2nd inversion no less) what did you call them?
The goal of analysis is to look at music and determine if there are similarities and differences. The reason we use roman numerals is so we can take pieces in various keys, and "genericize" them so we can see any patterns.
This is very useful when music follows a very typical (and predictable) set of characteristics. Common Practice Music does just this - that's one of the reasons it's so studied.
But when music doesn't follow these conventions, the analysis needs to be adapted - so analyzing them like a CPP piece is in some cases, useless.
One of the biggest problems now is that so much music does share characteristics with CPP music, but the same piece can contain completely foreign elements. Sometimes it's useful to analyze the CPP-like aspects in CPP terms, and simply note the "exceptions". But, in cases like this, the surface similarities seem pretty obvious, but actually, a CPP-based analysis of this piece doesn't really tell us much. There is a "center" of Em. There are "identifiable chords". The notion of a "traditional" key is gone so it seems chords are being chosen for some other reason - any informative analysis would tell us where these chords are coming from (can we ask John?). -
Good work, Maurizio! A fascinating read.
I had no idea a job like that could be so frustrating. Kudos to him for doing it for 15 years.
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Thanks, Dylan. I could understand about not having 8 horn players or more than 4 winds, etc. But it still seems weird to me to omit the synth for the same reason. I once saw Mozart's Magic Flute produced by a company with plenty of cash, and for Papageno's magic bells, which are usually played by a celeste, they used a synth instead because they didn't have a celeste! Maybe that was a special case, but it seems that synths would be easier and cheaper than a real celeste. You're probably right, though, that the idea is that the real celeste is more standardized.
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Probably because in live concert settings, a real celeste is used.
Oh, no doubt. I'm just wondering why a synthesizer wouldn't be used in concert. Maybe it's that there seems to be something kind of taboo about having synthesizers mix with acoustic instruments in symphony orchestra concerts.
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Great analaysis, although the instrument here is a synth celeste - played by Randy Kerber - not a real one.
How “Randy’s Celeste” came into being: “I was asked to create a sound that would capture the magical personality of Hedwig, the Owl in Harry Potter. First, I called up an initialized voice patch on the DX-7 synthesizer to embody the soft character of the celeste. Next, I combined a sample of an actual celeste. After some manipulation of these two instruments, I was able to arrive at the unique sound you hear today.”
It's been updated. Thanks, Prometheus. I was looking at the Signature Series edition, where he simply calls for celeste. But the Prologue cue calls for synth celeste. Interesting that the two differ.
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What gives Hedwig's Theme the sound of magic and mystery? I offer my analysis in the last of 6 posts (for now!) on John Williams themes:As always, your thoughts are welcome. (And I'm all ears for any suggestions for future posts too.)
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I guess Lehman didn't see the C#. Since the chord is a dominant seventh (well, ninth with the G), it's hard for me not to hear it as V4/3 of V. Lydian II with 7th would technically be the same thing, but I would point to the context - the passage is essentially in E minor and calling something a Lydian II chord is to me more convincing in major-mode contexts, where we can hear the complete mode expressed by the surrounding chords rather than through just one chord.
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The fact that he's also a tremendously good jazz pianist (he was the best in Hollywood when he first came on the scene in the '50s) helps a whole lot. So his skills are surely a combination of an exceptional compositional mind and the kind of quick-witted improvisation a jazz pianist is expected to do. In the British interview for Empire Strikes Back, you can hear him playing away on the piano, trying out this and that. I imagine that his fingers can come up with ideas just as fast as his mind alone can.
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I recently watched Midnight Cowboy and read Ebert's review of it, which he updated since its release in the '70s. The points he made were keen, succinct, and firmly supported, and gave me an appreciation of why, like him, I felt the film was good but not great.
It's always sad to see the passing of such iconic figures who gave so much to so many for such a long time. He will be sorely missed.
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Another theme that i was thinking about how to call, is the theme that opens the end Credits.
The "over the moon" theme.
Well, it doesn't have anything to do with the over the moon scene, so i searched for alternatives.
its appearances:
-when Elliot is in the forest with his bicycle and searches for E.T., and then when he leaves with his bicycle.
-on Michael's search with his bicycle for E.T.
-here and there in the final bicycle chase
-and of course in the End Credits
So, maybe we can call this the "bicycle theme"?
I would say so. As you point out, it's always associated with bicycle riding. But there's another bicycle theme - the one with the repeated staccato notes in triplet rhythm before jumping up a fifth (usually on trumpet). So it would probably be good to differentiate them in their names.
yes, that one is associated more with the "bad" guys following the one in the bicycle (be it Michael or Elliot, or the kids)..
Exactly.
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Another theme that i was thinking about how to call, is the theme that opens the end Credits.
The "over the moon" theme.
Well, it doesn't have anything to do with the over the moon scene, so i searched for alternatives.
its appearances:
-when Elliot is in the forest with his bicycle and searches for E.T., and then when he leaves with his bicycle.
-on Michael's search with his bicycle for E.T.
-here and there in the final bicycle chase
-and of course in the End Credits
So, maybe we can call this the "bicycle theme"?
I would say so. As you point out, it's always associated with bicycle riding. But there's another bicycle theme - the one with the repeated staccato notes in triplet rhythm before jumping up a fifth (usually on trumpet). So it would probably be good to differentiate them in their names.
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When I taught E.T. in a course on film music, I referred to this theme as the "E.T. family" theme, because it always seems to relate E.T. to his own people (with the sense of loneliness and longing that Maurizio and Thor mention) rather than to Elliott. We hear it overt the opening shot of the starry sky, for example, because that is where E.T. and his people come from. When Elliott is luring E.T. into his house with Reese's Pieces, we hear it again probably because E.T. is still unsure of Elliott and more allied with his own people at this point. And of course during the closing shots, we hear it once more because E.T. is clearly reunited with his people - or family - once more.
Favorite John Williams Chord or Chord Progression
in JOHN WILLIAMS
Posted
In either mode, Phrygian II is fine. But like Prometheus, I prefer Neapolitan as well - it's certainly the most common name both in literature and in the way musicians discuss it orally.
If you're thinking of why I'm so flexible with this, whereas with Lydian II I'm not, it's because a II# chord can sound like V/V, so needs to resolve to tonic to sound like a borrowed Lydian chord. If the seventh is added, the sense of a dominant seventh is so strong, it's hard to call it Lydian rather than V7/V.