Barnald

To be fair, it's kind of mesmeric in gif form

Yeah I very much hope the film version of the AUJ credits song is released some day, complete with the lovely lead-in bit (I reckon I'm probably the only one who wants another version of Song of the Lonely Mountain).

Well, if you think about it the LOTR book could already be revised now, to reflect the fact that some one-time passages became "themes" in The Hobbit scores....
 
Maybe we could get something like this:
 
2016 Q4: AUJ CR
2017 Q2: DOS CR
2017 Q4: TBOTFA CR + The Music of TH book w/ Rarities Archive
2018 Q1: FOTR CR version 2
2018 Q2: TTT CR version 2
2018 Q3: ROTK CR version 2
2018 Q4: The Music Of The LOTR book version 2 (no more Rarities Archive because each CR 2.0 has their own disc of extra material)

My love for and enjoyment of FotR (both as the book, the film and the score!) has been unconditional from the beginning. And while I am aware, but not Jim Ware, of some of the behind-the-scenes decisions that likely have taken place during various times during FotR's production (both in the writing, recording and CR assembly stages), I, like Georg, feel ever so slightly unhappy with the small imperfect puzzle pieces of the CR, be it the edits that were - apparently - not touched up, or the missing alternates. As has been pointed out in the past both by others and myself, neither T2T nor RotK feature these "imperfections" the way they affect FotR.
 
My reaction to the new findings about the alternate 'Breaking' is pretty much the same as Georg's. (I swear, should he and I ever manage to meet up [I've been trying for a decade!], this could be the event of the century. Imagine all the German anger and discontent shared between two LotR nuts!). I wrote some time ago that the 1% of the FotR CR that is less-than-perfect will not ever overshadow the 99% of it that is perfect. And I stand by that assessment. But I too question, or better am bemused, by some of the decisions that were made regarding the FotR CR, decisions that apparently were re-considered in time for T2T (which then continued for RotK, since 'Bilbo's Song' was included on the RotK CR, but perhaps its case is different as it was expressly written for inclusion in the EE fan credits, whereas 'Breaking' wasn't). Why those decisions were taken, or what they were based on, I of course do not know. Doug might know, but perhaps cannot comment on them. Jim Ware seems to know a thing or two as well, but doesn't seem to be able to go beyond "informative teasing", either!  I can, however, understand that 'Breaking' might hot have pinged anybody's radar as edited or incomplete 10 or 11 years ago. Or perhaps it did, but nobody considered it a big deal. Other than some of us do, today.
 
And regarding the non-inclusion of 'Breaking' on the RA and the argument of 8.5 minutes of a partially-heard alternate composition vs. 8.5 of all-new music... Before getting to Georg's comment on this, I too was thinking "Well, what about the four minutes of 'The End of All Things/Mount Doom+The Eagles/Sammath Naur' that is the same between all three representations?!" To this day, I have to consciously pay attention to 'The Eaves of Fangorn' to notice the differences to the CR version of it. So yeah, an argument can really be made about whether some piece was "alternate enough" to warrant inclusion over another one that wasn't deemed as such by the producers of the RA (but is by us).
 
Indeed, as Jason said, had the original idea (back in 2008/09) of presenting the RA on a DVD (with the actually filmed conversation between Doug and Howard Shore) been kept, we would probably have gotten more "alternate enough" pieces along the lines of 'Breaking'. (Note I said "probably"; I have not and never had any inside knowledge about any of this). Actually, about the interview: this would've been great to watch in full. Those nine minutes on the RA are for me just a teaser. I'd be incredibly curious about more discussions about Shore's approach, his intuition (which he actually briefly mentions), why have X instruments representing X culture, were therre inspirations from other sources (Boito's Mefistofele comes to mind), how he arrived at the themes etc. Because other than those nine minutes, all we have of that interview is the picture of Doug and Howard in the book and the "bloopers" that Doug shared a while ago. And don't get me started on the concert DVD than accompanied the RotK-DVD set in 2004. Shore's reading off stuff from a teleprompter is awfully boring.
 
What Jason wrote about the imaginary 4-CD set of FotR comes pretty damn close to what this MOTHER OF ALL FILM SCORES should ideally be represented like. But even when considering that the CR came out over 10 years ago, I highly doubt these scores will ever be re-visited to make them even more complete (and to our specifications, of course). And to be honest, what we do have between the OSTs, the CRs, the RA and Faleel's reconstructions is about 99.9% perfect. That is pretty darn good, if you ask me (but since nobody is ever asking me, it doesn't matter...).
 
That remaining 0.1% is, however, by now directly tied to those 8.5 minutes of the alternate 'Breaking of the Fellowship' and all of you can bet your asses that I am incredibly and infinitely vexed by this. Indeed, VEXED.
 
A good weekend to all!  

The best solution is to re-release FOTR as a 4 disc set, where discs 1-3 are the same format as before only with all the tracking and editing undone, with the original intended mixes instead of final film mixes with lower choir (basically: Rebuild the complete score from scratch from start to finish from pristine studio elements, don't take anything from the film's music stem), and have disc 4 be a collection of alternate versions.  Start right with the alternate prologue and go chronologically through the film until you end with the NZSO finale cue (unless there is some alt end credits stuff worth including too).  
 
Now THAT would be a killer 4CD set (and the gem of my film score collection).

No - I'm sure that the session elements are fine.  With the sheer quantity of material to be reviewed when curating the rarities archive it was probably just overlooked.
 

It's difficult to comment on specific examples but in all likelihood it was just too short, as were a number of other things.  Since it's technically dialled out in the film it could theoretically be included in the main programme of a reworked FOTR CR.

This will all make sense in time.
 
 
Only two or three.  It's not that heavily used.

Damn. I was hoping Shore would fire a volley into the crowd for the grand finale.

Damn. I was hoping Shore would fire a volley into the crowd for the grand finale.

I'm going to take that as confirmation of the CR's until my delusion is otherwise shattered.
 
So Ironfoot, Beyond the Forest, something Smaug-y, and something else?

Description for the Music as promised [In reply to] Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply To This Post Ok, here are story points for the Four pieces, it may make the listening a more interesting experience. 

Crickhollow: 

0:00-0:20 The hobbits arrive hastily at Crickhollow After being chased by the wraith, their doom still lingers in the music  
0:20-1:10 Frodo explains Gandalf set him on a mission. Ring and Gollum theme sound in the oboe as subtext, though laced with major chords, the peril is not yet clear to all of them 
1:10-2:00 Frodo speaks of the riders, where they may come from 
2:00-2:25 they argue about the dangerous journey, and that Frodo doesn't want his friends there 
2:25-3:00 they speak about having to pass through the old forest. The Withywindle and Old Forest theme sounds for the first time, but in major. Merry and Pippin want to come 
3:00-3:35 Frodo is Glad, and they convince him 
3:37-4:03 Frodo can't sleep, hears noises, afraid of the rider  
4:03-end Frodo dreams of a high tower and the sea. Journey Back sounds in fragments.

The Withywindle: 

0:00-0:12 They approach the hedge, Shire theme in low registers, this is a treacherous part of the Shire. 
0:12-0:22 they pass through the hedge  
0:22-0:54 they gaze at the forest with awe, slowly begin to press forward 
0:54-1:47 the journey begins, changing between being afraid, and jovial chatting 
1:48-1:55 they come to the Open area in the forest, it spooks them. 
1:55-2:37 journey Takes a darker turn 
2:37-3:08 they arrive at the shores of the Withywindle. It's a gorgeous view at first  
3:10-3:50 they smell something in the air, the Feet and eyes become tired  
3:50-3:59 the old willow comes into play  
3:59-4:27 the Willow's lullaby based on its theme introduced before on trombone. Frodo faints. 
4:28-5:00 Frodo and Sam in panic try to free Merry and Pippin from the willow 
5:01-5:13 they hear singing in the distance  
5:13-5:21 Bombadil arrives  
5:21-end Bombadil commands the willow. Intentional nod to the same moment with Treebeard in Two Towers
 
 
The House Of Bombadil:
 
0:00-0:20 Bombadil leads them to his House, Bombadil's song 
0:21-0:31 Bombadil's house reveal. Inversion of nature theme in major 
0:31-0:59 The hobbits carefully enter the house, enter the main room 
1:00-1:21 Goldberry reveal, the melody is part of her song ("Let the song begin, let us sing together, of sun, stars, moon, and Mist, rain, and cloudy weather ")
1:22-1:37 Bombadil shows them around
1:40-2:12 Bombadil speaks of himself
2:13-3:12 Bombadil first speaks of Goldberry, River daughter, then of the Barrow-downs, and finally, hints at the Ring. Frodo hands it to him
3:13-3:24 Bombadil fondles the ring, there is tension
3:25-3:37 he slowly slides it on his finger 
3:38-3:59 Tom does not disappear, the seduction theme cries shortly in the violins, then calms down. Goldberry's theme sounds tellingly in the harp as she smiles.
3:59-4:26 the Ring theme interacts with Bombadil's song in the violins. Tom calms the hobbits down
4:27-5:25  Tom tells stories about ancient times in this land, and how evil will always at some point replaced by good
5:26-5:44 Frodo lies in bed, looks out the window, sees the dark forest, a choral rendition of the willow theme sounds 
5:45-6:04 the feeling of comfort takes over, Frodo dreams 
6:04-end they spend a day or two in the house, collage of moments. The first pitches of Ring and Mordor theme sound, in combination with the Forest and finally Mordor's theme, it overtakes Frodo's mind again.
 

Newcastle United fan, so not unhappy with recent form, but still very tense...

I'll change it to the scene itself (the one with Finn, not the mind trick one) was jarring (at least to me) if that helps my case.
 
I'm determined to salvage a shred of integrity here. Clearly I've already embarrassed myself beyond all measure. To be honest, I've no idea why I wandered into this thread in the first place.
 
And Snoke is clearly Daniel Craig.

Those little Pete moments are pretty much an integral part of the appeal and peculiar tone of Twin Peaks. The show would've been weaker without him. It's not so much about his importance in the grand scheme of things

Exactly. The smaller specialty labels are actually stepping UP their game these days. I'm very impressed by (Curzon) Artificial Eye's upcoming Bluray series of Tarkovsky restorations, for example:
 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_mrr_1?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A283926%2Ck%3Aandrei+tarkovsky%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A383380011&keywords=andrei+tarkovsky&ie=UTF8&qid=1462443104&rnid=383379011
 
 

Major studios maybe, but this is being offset by the sterling work offered by the likes of Criterion, Arrow, Kino, Twilight Time, Shout Factory, Eureka, BFI, Cohen Media, Grindhouse Releasing, Synapse, Blue Underground, Vinegar Syndrome, Scorpion, 88 Films, Signal One, Second Sight, Carlotta, Camera Obscura, Explosive Media, and Koch Media (I've surely left some out). Even Warner Archive are stepping up their game with some stellar editions. For me, we're in another golden age of physical film media right now. I don't know how long it will last, but I sincerely doubt we'll ever see another.
 
I won't be going 4K Blu-ray, but I have many Blu-rays (and many DVDs), and certainly won't be stopping any time soon. Fuck streaming and downloads!

The addition of Michael Cera is unfortunate, but it's offset by that of Richard Chamberlain, Tom Sizemore, Tim Roth and in particular John Savage, who I've always considered him to be a hugely underrated actor. Jim Belushi could go either way frankly.
 
For me though, the real coup is getting Everett McGill out of retirement. Terrific actor who got out of it way too early.
 
 

I reckon it was a case of PJ not wanting to go to London for a few weeks so late in the post-production stage (you look at the making-of DoS and BotFA, with them going right until the last minute, and wonder how the hell he could have done it). Wanting it all 'in-house', so to speak, he wished it to be moved to Wellington, and Shore - for various reasons (perhaps including the AUJ issues, perhaps being miffed that his traditional process was being changed, perhaps not enthused by the long flights) - didn't want to go there for that length of time. If anything, I have to think Shore is a true professional - a trooper - and can't see him throwing his toys out the pram and being the one who initiated the change. I'd say it was more likely to be a PJ directive.

But consider this: For AUJ, the soundtrack came out before (m)any had had a chance to see the film. (I waited to see the film first, and also had avoided all previous discussions.) So people hear Shore's original, magnificent music the way he had intended. Then, you go to the movie with very high expectations and very quickly (I'm assuming), you become bewildered. Your expectations aren't (A) met in many places and (B) some of the changes are so confusing, as with Nazgûl/Reclamation/Eagle Flight. You can't help but be disappointed and, perhaps, you become as consequence more reserved about parts 2 and 3.
 
(For me, the same holds true, only vice-versa.)
 
While the source material isn't anywhere near as strong as LotR (and how could it be, frankly?), I think that an artistically superb and entertaining two-parter could have resulted from it. For reasons, it hasn't, and it affected Shore's music after his first go at it with AUJ. If you watch the making-of video of the fall 2012 recording sessions, you can see his enthusiasm and vigor while conducting, presumably before the score had to re-written and re-recorded. Had it been possible for him to continue in this way for the second part of the movie, I'm pretty confidant a much stronger score, and thus perhaps more impressive and "long-lived" work, would have been the result. Mind, the music that we did get is, by and large, still better than almost anything written in 2012-14, but within the context of Shore's entire Middle-earth oeuvre, it's "only" second-tier.
 
However, I wouldn't diminish these scores' actual quality just because they didn't catch the audience's attention the way LotR did. And if I'm completely honest, I'm not sure anything really could have.
 
A good weekend to the gallery! 

Armitage is also terrific, and Ken Stott deserves a special mention. Indeed, on the whole I find it very difficult to fault the acting (Lily and Bloom being the main exceptions). I was unsure about Pace after DoS, but felt he really came into his own in BotFA.

I think, in the grand scheme of things - and until they are remade - these Hobbit films will always have a fairly strong degree of relevance based on two factors:
 
1) They're 'follow-ups/prequels' to one of the most successful and critically acclaimed film series' of recent memory, itself adapted from a famous set of books
2) They're 'adaptations' of one of the most popular and beloved books of all time
 
And I think that's enough really. Sure they will not have the same enduring quality of LOTR, but very few films do. By the same token, whatever one thinks of the Star Wars prequels, one could surely never say that they were irrelevant or obselete (to be honest, I'm one of those sick deviants who prefers ROTS to TFA).

I agree, which is why I removed that part when I agreed with the gist of Quint's post.

What makes a film score "obsolete" anyway?  That's not really a word that means anything when it comes to film scores.

You think so? I think Shore will have to say a word or two in this. I don't think he has no legal say in his own music.
 
As far as influence or landmark or anything of the kind is concerned, LotR was an amazing first date. The Hobbit is like an old love that tries too hard to impress and puts too much make-up on. You love the effort, and it's more than good enough to have a few amazing nights, but when the door closes behind you, you have to realize the first spark is gone.
It wasn't gonna hit in the same way as FotR did in any case.