ocelot
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Posts posted by ocelot
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LOL, I wrote "TO ME" that's the same thing as IMO.... Lord, you people need a smack on the head and a joint
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1 minute ago, gkgyver said:
TLJ outshines The Post in the number of notes, certainly not in impact.
Subjective though, right? Music hits us all in different ways. That's why I said "To me".
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To me the score to The Last Jedi far outshines The Post, so I'm happy he was nominated for that one.
Someone above said they gave up on JW winning another Oscar after he did not win for POA. I agree, that AND Memoirs of a Geisha which I believe was two years after....
11 hours ago, crumbs said:Congratulations Maestro! Surprised it wasn't The Post, but IMO The Last Jedi is the greater technical achievement.
The Post is a fantastic and restrained score but Williams can write scores like that in his sleep; the complexity of writing in TLJ (and the clever integration of older themes and musical easter eggs) is simply unsurpassed by his contempories; only Williams can write at such a high technical level with music for orchestra.
I think it's also the music branch recognizing that an 85 year old writing music like this (and with such volume at 180+ minutes) is almost incomprehensible, and rewarding him for his continued dedication to the saga. Once all is said and done, every film in this new trilogy should have a score nomination and it'll hopefully be capped off with a book-ending win.
Exactly! Thank you! His orchestral writing is second to none right now. His orchestrations and and sheer magnitude of some of the writing is mind boggling. I love how he makes the orchestra work, and you can hear how much they love playing it too. A different sound comes out of the orchestra when they are relishing the music in front of them. BTW that is why samples will never truly capture the orchestra. It's the people playing the instruments that give it life! And you can hear it here and in all his Star Wars scores. One of my best friends, Roberto Sorentino, sits 4th chair cello in the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. we were talking about the same thing. It's a different energy when they are doing film scores and they get to someone like Korngold, Waxman, or Williams. The writing is on another level and it's doesn't bore them to sleep to play it. Although it reminds me of two years ago when they were on tour in China and he was so jet lagged he fell asleep in the middle of the concert, hahaha. OMG I would have been mortified, lol, but I'm sure it happens to the best of them on tour all the time
- James, idril, Jurassic Shark and 4 others
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True that. No worries, I'll step it and do it. Well, maybe a scene? No? O.o
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2 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:
I'm so excited for Episode IX!
Me too, especially after the controversy over this last one, lol.... Can't wait for the Solo theme too
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22 hours ago, Marcus said:
Certainly!
There's quite a bit available on Spotify etc.
You can also check out my website, www.marcuspaus.com
Here's some stuff off YouTube:
Love it. Thank you for sharing! That timpani concerto is fucking HOT!!!! Excuse my language
22 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:Pencil and paper is underrated.
I've only used Sibelius - is there any difference between the two?
I've never used Sibelius but my friend Lior Rosner does and he hates Finale, lol. I think it's whatever you are used to. I think we are all derailing the topic at hand here. Maybe we should move all our own stuff into another thread/forum? And it's great to hear other people's work and support each other on here. It's a much more beautiful thing than arguing
- Luka and Jurassic Shark
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2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:
I've now listened to your compositions on Youtube and your album on Spotify. Your music is very evocative and reminiscent of film music, but I found it better than much of today's film music. I could sense an influence from JW and Ravel, among others, but it mostly felt like your own compositions. Keep up the good work!
Are you a full-time composer?
Thanks, yeah I am, its my full time job. And thank you x I keep trying to get work in the film/tv industry and I do here and there but nowadays they want "new" composers to do low budget movies with samples and I only know how to write pencil to paper at a piano and then I orchestrate into finale. Which means I need an orchestra to record it, and most of the time they won't chance a big budget on someone not tried out fully. I just did the main title last year to an upcoming TV show called Medinah, and wrote themes and motives for characters and situations. Recorded the main title with a 94 piece orchestra for them too. But I think we are getting off topic here!
1 hour ago, Quintus said:I wonder if he's the best composer on JWFan.
OMG I highly doubt that LOL
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7 hours ago, Quintus said:
Not at all mate. I like how you're suddenly quite humble about it though, it shows good nature
OMG, I still have so much to learn as a composer, trust me!!! But I love learning and growing, so little by little! And I can't remember whom, but someone put one of my pieces on here to mock it last year, so not everyone is going to like what I do. It's all good though.
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3 minutes ago, Quintus said:
No, I saw the videos last year and I listened. I was impressed, I said so at the time 👍
Thank you
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6 minutes ago, Quintus said:
Have you heard Ocelot's? It's fabulous!
LOL, I'm not quite sure if you are mocking me or being honest. Some people will ike it, others won't, it's all good. I do my best...
11 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:@ocelot, may I hear some of your music?
I sent you a PM with a video of the recording of one of my pieces
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Just now, idril said:
That's so messed up it's hilarious. I...what?!
Seriously, my whole family was cracking up at the idiocy of it all....
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6 hours ago, idril said:
If we couldn't teach the works of artists/composers/writers of yesteryear who held views we now recognise as problematic, we'd live in a pretty hollowed-out culture. Nothing would be permissible. Wagner's biography is very interesting but it is something to study in itself, it doesn't change his musical genius. No doubt we could dig up a thousand #metoo stories on most of the famous artistic geniuses of history! But it's not as if we're supporting them financially by appreciating their music now, or furthering their careers despite continued hatred or misdeeds. So I don't see the harm in prioritising Wagner (or anyone else's) genius over their troubling views or actions.
And it's not like many artists throughout history didn't have views and actions that we now see as not conducive to modern day living, thought or ideas. From hating other religions and races to slavery to misogyny etc etc etc... At some point we should separate the artist from the person. It's like this dumb dumb dumb thing in Saudi Arabia. Pokémon Go is banned there, actually anything Pokemon is banned because they deem it a Jewish Conspiracy... WTF, lol, I mean even a Japanese cartoon is being blamed on the Jews?
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13 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:
And as much as I like JW's music, his dense style has a major disadvantage: the number of downright bad re-recordings is simply uncountable.
Do you think that is because of his writing or some orchestras not being able to play them well? Because in concerts here in LA and in London that I have gone to, be it the LA Phil or LSO or Royal Phil, they play them beautifully. I would chalk bad recordings (and live concerts) to there being far too many mediocre to pretty bad orchestras out there not being able to handle balance and play in tune and in time.
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Yeah I'm done with dumb arguments. Like I said, enjoy what you want to enjoy, when it comes to the listening experience, it's subjective, and there is something for everyone.
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7 hours ago, Nick1066 said:
So when Shore's music is simple, it's because he "can't go there", but when Williams is simple it's because he's a genius? Williams simplicity makes him a "tunesmith" but when Shore is simple he lacks complexity, heart and substance?
Hmmmm.
Even when Williams is simple, he writes memorable themes that you remember and can hum. His themes also are not one line statements. Take any big theme he has written. Be it the Jurassic Park theme, Superman, ET, Jaws, Any Star Wars big theme, Indiana Jones, Memoirs of a Geisha, Schindler's List, etc etc etc etc, the themes aren't simple in their structure and they tell a story. There is an A section, a B section, sometimes even a C section before returning to A. There is STRUCTURE. There is reason in the writing. Apart from the song Shore wrote for the last LOTR, where is any other theme with that type of actual writing structure? He writes motifs, sure, simple one line statements like William's Kylo Ren Motif, Poe's Motif, but not actual themes. Don't turn that argument around on my head because it is so not the same, lol. Please Girl! Don't go there!
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5 minutes ago, publicist said:
True but i do not consider Williams 'complicated', either (he can be in spots, but still...).
Actually If you study many of his scores and his concert works, he can get very complicated harmonically. Have you looked at the score to 5 Sacred Trees? Even SW TPM has some really challenging harmonies and rhythms. I am not talking about his thematic material here. And I think that is his genius in keeping those very simple and very catchy. He is a tunesmith. I'm talking about the meat and potatoes of some of his scores. Again, that is not to say that anyone should like them or that there isn't other more complicated music with tons of other composers.
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23 minutes ago, TGP said:
This is where you get into trouble. You want to present a "like what you like, it's all ok!" attitude, but this reads more like "most people like unsophisticated music." And the notion that it's because he can't is just baseless, really - contrary to his own words about limiting the harmonic scope of the scores, and not held up by some of his other music which can be harmonically quite outlandish and adventurous - Spider, The Brood, Naked Lunch, Scanners...this would just be a small taster.
It is these slight hints of derision, ever so slight, that I think gets people rightfully argumentative, and it's why this subject always comes up.
14 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:I disagree with much of your post, but you lay out your argument in your first paragraph reasonably well, which I respect your doing even if again I disagree with your thesis.
But I do take issue with this, your second paragraph. What you're essentially saying is "The LOTR score is simplistic crap. That's OK, some people like simplistic crap. So hey, whatever floats your boat, you simple person who likes simplistic crap".
Bullshit. When you do this you're not just insulting the work, your questioning why someone likes the work...and insulting them to boot. Don't do that. You're much more persuasive when you just stick to your argument without suggesting that someone who likes something you dislike has less sophisticated taste. And you especially can't get away with that when you write stuff like "it's symphonic Enya." To quote Harold Bloom, that's not even good rubbish. And it's frankly an argument I hear classic music snobs make about Williams...it's simple, it's less sophisticated, it's crowd pleasing crap. We can debate the merits of the LOTR score. But everything shuts down when you insult the taste of people who appreciate it. You're not going to convince anyone that way.
On the other hand, I whole heartedly agree with you about Wagner.
Meh, I don't think that is what I am saying. I love Britney Spears for crying out loud, lol.... That's who I work out to and other simple dance music remixes that have maybe 2 chords throughout with a beat?! And in composition post grad schools I fought against snobs and teachers who put down Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Puccini, Goldsmith and Williams as simple and meaning nothing and how it's throwaway. I'm definitely not a musical snob. So if I came off that way, it's not actually my intent. But the world is going towards a simpler taste. Most people gravitate to simple harmony and music. Anything complicated goes above most people's heads, and does not hit emotionally to them. That is my point. I might have said it in a crappy way, I'm just being honest. Even pop music has become simpler, and that is already the simplest form of music. Take The Beatles. Simple music but there is harmony and the songs tell a story. Now take Beyoncé. Some of her biggest hits are essentially one chord throughout the whole song. But they are the biggest money makers for a reason. People do not want and can not handle complicated music and harmony. BTW I think Horner's Titanic is Symphonic Enya too, and that also won best score
(I do not like it at all though)
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Let me start by saying that people can choose to prefer anything they prefer. As Maggie Smith once said in A Prime For Miss Jean Brodie "For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"....
Now to what I am going to say....
I personally can't listen to 85% of the music that Shore wrote for LOTR. I think it works fine in the movies, but as a listening experience for me, it's as bland as chalk and completely pedestrian. His music to the hobbit area is like composing 101 and his action writing is very limited. Also, he had a whole world to write for and the music sounds the same throughout. If you guys have ever heard Ravel's score to Daphnis and Chloe. The 2nd suite. The way the woodwinds bubble under the strings brings to mind hearing the animals and feeling nature all around you. That's what I wanted to hear in the Elven realms. They could hear the trees and animals and communicate with nature of sorts. But the music was the same as it was everywhere else and I was left feeling a bit let down by it. And the loud stuff was just LOUD with no form or function. Like someone said, Oh by the way, this is an Epic so he just had the whole orchestra blasting away without any break. No breathing room. No ebb and flow. The brass were just all the brass all the time. Where's the orchestration? Where's the finesse? Those are just a few of my problems.
HOWEVER, I do understand why it works for so many other people out there and that's fantastic! I understand why it hits people more emotionally than Williams's writing. The simplicity of harmony and the pop cadence to his writing is what people nowadays are used to, it's like symphonic Enya. World music that is just emotion but with no heart or substance really. He doesn't go harmonically anywhere interesting or complex because he simply cannot go there, not because he does not want to. But, I think, because of that, it grabbed most of the world and it was a complete winner, because most people love simplicity and emotion. It stole people's hearts and took them to a place they wanted to go at that time. The music was tragic through and through. Congrats to him in the end of the day and to his awards!
But please, for crying out loud, comparing either Williams or Shore to Wagner is laughable. Wagner is on a completely different level altogether, and at the time Wagner was writing his Operas, he was on his OWN level with no one to match him..... Harmonically and otherwise! He was the father of what became the late Romantic period and modern writing. His complex textures and shifting harmonies, in the 19th century were like no other. We are talking 1800s.... Remember, he was born 200 years ago. That music is so far ahead of it's time. Without him I do not believe there would be the great Richard Strauss or Gustav Mahler amongst. At least not in how they sound because of his innovation. Tristan and Isolde remains one of my favorite works and so complex. I do not think anything in LOTR even comes close to a few bars of that Opera. Williams on the other hand actually does sound as complex, harmonically and otherwise, HOWEVER, when Wagner did it, it was new, never done before, not so with either of these film music giants! That is the huge difference! Wagner was a leader, not a follower. Remember that!
But again, love who you love, listen to who you want to listen to, but lets be real about it, lol
- Jurassic Shark and Remco
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Let me let you in on something I know about The Last Jedi. When Rian Johnson would send Williams his music put to scenes already done and scored, Williams himself then went and said (on many areas) Let me change this. I think I can hit it better emotionally. Without Johnson asking for it and without his input. That alone is admirable. The notion that he only spent a few weeks composing is bullshit. On both the last two SW scores and on TinTin I know he spent months on them. Rey's theme was revised countless times and rewritten plenty because he didn't like it till he finally nailed it. That alone took weeks. Just honestly hush up already. Unless you are an orchestral composer, do not presume how long things do or should take. Besides, some of the best known loved and admired pieces in History have taken anywhere from 1 week to 1 year to finish. Time does not indicate how good anything is, the product does. Love it or Hate it, that's personal choice, but the guy has done something in film, never done before, you can never take that away from him!
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To me, the music in the Star Wars films outshines all those others mentioned musically. By a mile. There is no comparison. Musically....
However, people can like and prefer music without having comparisons made about harmonic language etc, because music to the listener is solely about how it hits you emotionally and cerebrally. So whatever you prefer, go for it and enjoy it. That's the beauty of any art. It's subjective, and it's great that we all have different tastes.
Having said that, and having said that I prefer Star Wars by a mile, I do think one of the greatest themes in movie history is the theme Goldsmith wrote for Star Trek: First Contact. The simplicity, and majesty of that theme hits me every time. It's very similar in tone to Jurassic Park's slow theme. Both have that masculine vs Feminine element that works beautifully in a grand theme. Meaning, as powerful as they are, they also feel nurturing, like a warm blanket.
- Jurassic Shark, Smeltington, Remco and 3 others
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Come on! Good old fashioned ribbing is fun! Let's not all get too sensitive
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9 hours ago, crumbs said:
Aren't Williams sketches filled with notes and other orchestrational instructions? Would give a clear indication on Williams' musical intentions for a score.
I've never really read them (mostly because I can't read music).
6 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:Really? I thought he wrote basic piano sketches to be orchestrated after the fact by Pope or Ross.
According to Conrad Pope, and I am being honest here. When I sat and talked to him, he said, Williams gives him full on already orchestrated sketches and he is (in his own words) a glorified copyist. According to him, no other composer he's worked with does that.
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Poe's theme is technically a motif, like Kylo's two are. When I think of Theme, I think Leia, Imperial March, Rey, etc. A theme to me has to have more than a simple statement. It's like it's own story which has a beginning, middle section and end.
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One thing I think I am hearing on this thread is the notion that John Powell's style or orchestral music is not up to snuff for the project. As far as I am concerned, John Powell is a fantastic orchestral composer. He goes more modern with other projects, but the guy can write for orchestra. Anyone who doesn't think so is off base to me. He has the chops. I really don't think this is a "oh shit, the score is not good" I think this is probably either Disney coming to Williams and saying, hey, you never wrote a theme for Han Solo, do you want to? Or Williams going, Hey, I never wrote a theme for Han Solo, do you want it? That's all. Fabulous news for us, and not a sleight on Powell. The guy is a great fully formed orchestral composer, unlike that cappuccino guy as someone called him, lol, I did think that was funny
2 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:Well Williams was never asked to write Jyn's theme even when Desplat and Gia were onboard for R1.
So there is clearly a difference here. While I love the fact that JW is writing Han's theme, there is no reason he should be writing it. This movie is a one-off and the theme wont be used in any other film.
See my above post. I believe that is because Han is an established character in the movies and Williams never wrote a theme for him. Jyn and the rest are all new characters that Williams does not have a past with. That's all I believe this is, no more. However, make no mistake. Kathleen Kennedy calls ALL the shots here. She could have asked Williams to write something for Rogue One. They just did not at the time and there was already a clusterfuck of a thing happening with the firing of Desplat and bringing in Cappuccino and his help to do the score very fast. Williams also likes to take time on his scores and themes from everything I know. He wrote so many different variations of Rey's theme and was not satisfied till the end.
5 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:Revel in ignorance.
This supposed film journalist who is also a film critic and the editor at large of an online film publication outlet thinks Han has 3 seperate "songs" to his name in V VI and VII and that Williams is writing a fourth "song" for Han for this film.
https://theplaylist.net/john-williams-solo-star-wars-story-20180102/
Exhibit A as to why the opinions on film score of these hippie new age blogger/film critics are basically BS. They are literally talking out of their ass when talking about film scores and don't know what the hell they are on about.
And this guy calls himself a film critic?! LOL..... What a Joke. I posted to his article not that it will make any difference.
- Pieter Boelen and MikeH
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John Williams nominated for 51st Oscar, for "The Last Jedi"
in JOHN WILLIAMS
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Tis the season to be legal!