jamesluckard

Wow, 20 years later (hard to believe) and I just saw Jay's breakdown of the album from Nov 2022, after the cue sheets leaked. I'm shocked by how far off I was on some things, partly because I never imagined the actual film cues would be sliced and diced this much on the album, and partly because I had seen John Williams speak, only months earlier, at a concert, about re-recording portions of his scores for his albums, so I assumed that's what this album was. At least I got a few things right. I'm quoting Jay's album breakdown here, so it's in a convenient place to clarify all the mistakes I made in 2004. Hopefully someone can edit the page on the main website with my now-wildly-outdated 2004 info: https://jwfan.com/?p=3567 Catch Me If You Can 01 Catch Me If You Can Closing In w/ Insert and New Ending 02 The Float 0:00-0:45 = 7M4 Front Extension 0:45-3:43 = 7M4 Frank and Carl [bars 11-28,41-169] 3:43-4:23 = 7M4 End Extension [bars 1-34] 4:34-end = 7M4 Frank and Carl [bars 191-192,195-end] 04 Recollections Reflections 05 The Airport Scene 0:00-0:41 = 4M5 F.B.I. Net 0:41-end = 5M9 The Airport Scene [bars 8-end] 07 Learning The Ropes 0:00-2:24 = 2M4 Learning the Ropes [bars 1-52, 55-72, 75-90] 2:24–2:42 = 2M4 Stewardess Insert 2:42–6:03 = 2M4 Learning the Ropes [bars 104-176, 179-254] 6:03–end = 2M4A Learning the Ropes Part II 08 Father And Son 0:00–2:03 = 1M3 Father and Son [bars 1-21,24-35] 2:03–end = 5M5 Let’s Call a Truce 10 The Flash Comics Clue 0:00–0:47 = 4M1alt. Flash Comics 0:47–1:32 = 6M9 Catch Me [bars 26-49,57-64] 1:32–end = Closing In [bars 65-72] 11 Deadheading 0:00–1:01 = 2M5 Deadhead 1:01-end = 5M8 Up the Staircase 13 A Broken Home 0:00–1:51 = 7M1 First Day at Work [bars 1-30] 1:51–2:06 = 6M5 Consulting the Penner Bros. [bars 19-23] 2:06-end = 2M3 The Divorce Scene 14 Doctor, Lawyer, Lutheran 0:00–1:02 = 5M1 Self-Made Lawyer [bars 1-34, 43-53] 1:02–end = 4M4 I’m a Doctor Track 16 Catch Me If You Can (Reprise and End Credits) 0:00–2:31 = 7M4 Frank and Carl [1-83, 165-192, 195-end] 2:31–end = Closing In w/ Insert and New Ending And here's the cue sheet I found online, to match up with the tracks in Jay's breakdown above: Catch Me If You Can (2002) - John Williams Closing In Closing In Insert 1m3 Father and Son 2m3 The Divorce Scene 2m4 Learning the Ropes 2m4Insert #2 2m4Insert Stewardness Insert 2m4A Learning the Ropes Part II 2m5 Dead Head 2m6 Picking a Bank Teller 2m7 The Float 3m5Alt Hanratty Closes In 3m6 Hanratty Tricked 4m1Alt Flash Comics 4m2Alt Yearbook 4m2 School Yearbook 4m4 I'm a Doctor 4m5Alt Protective Father 4m5 F.B.I. Net 4m6 Permission to Marry 4m7Alt F.B.I. Guns, Insert 4m7 F.B.I. Guns 5m1 Self Made Lawyer 5m5 Let's Call a Truce 5m8 The Staircase 5m9 The Airport Scene 5m9Insert Brenda Insert 6m1 Hanratty At Work 6m1Alt Covering the Airport 6m5 Consulting the Penner Bros 6m9 Catch Me 7m1 First Day At Work 7m2 The Lure of the Past 7m3 Frank Comes Back! 7m4 Frank and Carl

After all this drama, looks like Disney is releasing a 5-disc boxset in March 2024 containing all the Indy soundtrack albums, including Dial of Destiny. Yes, it's $150, but that's still less than the DoD CD alone is going for right now: https://www.disneymusicemporium.com/product/XVCD64/indiana-jones-the-complete-cd-collection?cp=null All credit to jamoase at the FSM board for posting this news. You can see the tracklistings on the image if you zoom. The CDs for the first three films are the 2008 Concord expansions The CD for the fourth film is the normal 2008 album. They're dropping the fifth disc from the Concord set, with the additional cues. The fifth disc in this set will be the regular Dial of Destiny album, identical to the OOP standalone album.

Not churlish at all. The LP hasn't sold well, it's still in stock. They can easily replace it for you, and for such a premium-priced collector's item, they definitely should.

Here are the publishing credits from the liner notes: Williams has sole credit on The Adventures of Han and the brief 0:30 cue "Gonna Be a Pilot" Williams has composing credit and Powell has arranging credit on "Empire Recruitment" Powell has sole credit on 8 cues They're jointly credited on the rest, but those cues are broken into three entirely separate blocks, based on publishing rights, as seen above.

Yep, they're credited in the liner notes, as is Paul Mounsey.

So are those the cues that people here believe Williams helped Powell write new material for? Because they share credit on many more cues. Are the other cues with shared credit just those that reuse old Williams compositions? I get that this may have been discussed a while back, but looking over some old pages here, I don't see any posts (though I may have missed them in the 92 pages of this thread) that clearly answer the questions I raised in my post above. It seems natural, with a new official CD release of the score, and a super, super detailed interview with Powell included with it, to talk about this again. I apologize for being out of the loop on things that may have been discussed over the last year or two. I'm an infrequent visitor here. That said, I'm politely asking for some help in understanding the level of Powell and Williams's collaboration, because the liner notes to the CD raise as many questions as they answer. At other forums, where I'm a more regular presence, I always try to help summarize past discussions for any newcomers who ask politely. I'd be enormously grateful if someone could do that for me here. I'm especially curious about all the entities listed with publishing rights, wondering if anyone has broken down which ones might reflect who wrote what. Thanks!!

Maybe I'm late to the game in learning this, but from reading the liner notes, it sounds like John Williams was a LOT more involved in this than just writing a single main theme and stepping away. Powell says Williams spotted the film, says Williams actually wrote two entirely distinct Han themes, and it even sounds, if I'm reading correctly, like Williams might have written other new material in the score, in addition to all the Williams compositions from the original films that get melded into the score. The Composer credits at the end of the booklet are super confusing. - There are three distinct batches of credits for tracks "Composed by John Powell and John Williams." They make up the bulk of the score. They're divided based on publishing rights held by various mixes of different entities - Wampa Tauntaun Music, Utapau Music, Bantha Music, and Warner-Tamerlane Music. I'm not sure which of those entities control various existing compositions from the old films, and which would cover new compositions. The co-composed tracks number 25. - Williams has sole credit on two tracks - "The Adventures of Han" concert cue and one cue in the film. - Williams also has sole composing credit on the "Empire Recruitment" TV commercial cue, with Powell getting arranging credit. - Powell has sole composing credit on 8 tracks. I love Powell's music, I have all his CDs, so I'm not trying to take anything away from his huge accomplishment with this amazing score. I'm just curious about how involved Williams was. Does anyone know any more about the extent of Williams's involvement? Or are these liner notes all that's been said publicly so far?

I don't have Twitter (or whatever they're calling it this week), but I asked two friends who do to tweet to Mr. Mangold. They haven't mentioned any replies form him yet, sadly. I'm also trying a couple of other methods.

UPS Mail Innovations is a brilliantly designed system, I've had things go through it before. When packages vanish (as happened to me), UPS can now blame USPS, and USPS can now blame UPS, it's highly innovative.

True, but it wasn't an unreasonable assumption, since they never stated it was a retailer exclusive.

I don't think 99.9% of film score fans listen to music through streaming though. This isn't the latest pop album. Most film scores still get CDs, even new releases. I'd be curious to know what the breakdown is in our community of CD vs digital purchase vs streaming (for albums where the final two options are available). Also, Indy 5 is similar to John Carter and Tomorrowland in another way - they all lost Disney over $100 million. Indy 5 may lose over $200 million. John Carter came close. I wonder if that played into the CDs not getting wider releases. Highly likely, unfortunately. I wouldn't be shocked if they write off the whole Indiana Jones franchise after this financial catastrophe. Still, pressing more CDs from a master that already exists, and was recently in use, is not that difficult. I still maintain that a request from James Mangold or Frank Marshall (or John Williams himself, if that's possible by some miracle) is our last hope for the few hundred more CDs we need to satisfy the rest of our community.

Highly unlikely. Any suddenly appearing legal issue with the album itself that would have prevented them from releasing the CD more widely would also have prevented them from fulfilling preorders.

Because that's unrealistic and asking for too much, and risks dooming the whole thing. Disney has a master for the CD ready and available. It would be extremely simple to press more right now. Us convincing Mr. Mangold or Mr. Marshall to request more CDs be pressed is completely realistic. There are no masters for an expanded release. They would need to pay people to do that, and it would take months, if not years to get all that ready and approved. There will be no appetite at Disney to do that after the movie flopped financially. Asking for the moon would ensure we get nothing. We should be asking Mr. Mangold and Mr. Marshall only for more of the current album CDs to be pressed.

Yep, as Jurassic Shark said, JW probably has it in his contract that he gets to produce the album and select the cues presented and the way they're presented. Thanks! Sorry, I'm trying to keep simultaneous convos about this here, at forum.Blu-Ray.com and at FSM straight in my mind, haha. No slight meant.

Thanks! I don't have a Twitter account, and I know nobody would take an account seriously that's just been set up and has no history, so I've been asking friends with older accounts to tweet Mangold and now Marshall. The key is to be cheerful and polite

Come join our noble quest to get James Mangold and/or Frank Marshall to contact Disney and ask them to press more CDs. James Mangold Twitter mang0ld Frank Marshall Twitter LeDoctor

The official comment from Disney Music Emporium is that it was a limited edition (which they did not announce at the time), it was a retailer exclusive to their website (which they did not announce at the time), and that it sold out in preorders, when the page at the website was taken down a couple of weeks ago. According to Disney, the CDs preordered there, which can't number more than a couple of hundred in my opinion, are the only ones that will be released. It's disgusting.

I don't think that's the case at all. Directors at his level aren't really penalized because a single film didn't gross what was hoped. He's one of the top directors in the industry, and has directed huge hits. Disney has an announced Star Wars film in the pipeline with him, and even if it never gets made, which is possible, they want to be in business with him. There are only a handful of directors with the skills and experience to execute a film on the scale Disney makes these days. Disney can have 100 projects in development, but finding a director is the logjam in the process, because there are so few directors capable of steering a multi-hundred-milllion-dollar ship. Regardless of the film's box office performance, all signs are that Disney was very happy with how he directed the film. He wasn't replaced, which is itself a small miracle. Look at all the other Lucasfilm projects lately. Out of about a dozen Lucasfilm movies that were announced or went into production since Disney bought it, more than half had their directors fired or replaced. He made it all the way to the end. Again, all this is to say I truly think contacting Mr. Mangold is the best course of action, and I say this with some experience. George Lucas sold Lucasfilm a number of years ago, and is focused on building his museum in LA. I don't think that would be very useful, unfortunately. I also don't think individual consumers contacting corporate entities is all that useful, based on a lot of experience trying to do that in the past. The most useful thing is winning over a champion with clout who will argue for us with the studio. I still think Mr. Mangold would be best. Mr. Williams would be ideal, but that seems unlikely. Your mention of Kennedy/Marshall makes me think, however, that tweeting to Frank Marshall wouldn't be a bad idea... Directors and producers don't get all that much fan attention, compared to actors. In my experience, directors and producers can be reachable. Frank Marshall's Twitter is: LeDoctor He tweeted a NYTimes article about Williams's score on July 8.

I agree, I suspect the only reason Williams's last few scores have had CDs is some sort of requirement in his contract when a studio hires him that a CD be released. This is just a guess, of course, does anyone know for sure?

Ah, yep, I remember you mentioning something similar, it was just my specific realization that August 9 is a Wednesday, and not a Friday, when CDs come out now, that I wanted to stress in my post there. I didn't mean to make it seem as if I was trying to pass off your observation about the CDs being ready early as my own, sorry if it read that way, I was trying to tie the realization about the date back into your earlier observation. I probably should have quoted your earlier post to make that clear.

That would be glorious news. I'd love to look like a fool in three weeks if it's true and means I could get a CD. However, another bad omen just hit me. They announced on their website that the CD would come out on August 9. August 9 is a Wednesday. CDs do not come out on Wednesdays in the US. That makes me think it was never a wide release date, just an estimate of when they'd be able to ship it, tied to the lag time in pressing the LPs. They clearly decided to just start sending out the CDs once they came in to anyone who didn't also order an LP with it.

But it was a limited edition and also a retailer exclusive, and they didn't advertise those facts... I'm not saying we have any reason to suspect it is a CD-R, just that we also have no proof yet that it isn't.

Entirely possible too. There's a video online that seems to be the only promotion Disney did, it's an Instagram influencer showing off the CD in its case. You can see the insert artwork and the front of the disc, but you can't see the back of the disc to see if it's a pressed CD. She's holding the CD and moving around the whole time, annoyingly, so you really don't get a good look at the actual product.

People were guessing in the thousands earlier, like standard limited edition score CDs. Since this sold out so quickly at one unadvertised retailer, and so few of us got them, I suspect it was way below the thousands. I'd bet money that they only pressed a few hundred at most.

I'd be truly curious how many CDs they sold during their limited run. Very few people knew about it, or took the DME listing seriously, even among the JW fan community, as we can see here. I didn't take it seriously, to my regret. Since so few of us snagged it, I'll bet not many people beyond our orbit even knew about it. I would not be shocked at all if they only sold 500 CDs, or maybe fewer. I honestly wouldn't be at all shocked if it was only 100 CDs. I still hope we can get Mr. Mangold on our side. I'll try everything I can. I don't want to let John Williams's final film score on CD before his announced retirement slip through my fingers.