Hellgi
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Posts posted by Hellgi
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Titanic works very well in the film . . . I think no one can dispute that. In the end, that's all that matters.
I don't agree. These stupid synth orchestrations and choir completely throw me out of the movie everytime. I mean, come on, when you see the Titanic for the first time, the music is well written but so badly orchestrated, it makes the (amazing) full shot completely flat to me. It just kills it. Happens a lot in the movie.
Maybe that was due to the fact that he was asked to score Titanic himself but declined, possibly due to schedule conflictsHmm, didn't know about that... any source?
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I agree the source music is a big part of the atmosphere in the movie. However, Goldsmith's score is the other half.
The main theme in my mind perfectly embodies what the film is about. That blend of classy sensuality and sadness combined with that "film noir" touch really makes it timeless for me.
I also love the dark and powerful cues for the percussion section, it freaks me out every time I hear them.
I really think the movie could have failed with a score by a composer not as clever and knowledgeable as Goldsmith. Even though there's not a lot of music, I consider L.A. Confidential to be one of Goldsmith's finest. I just think it works perfectly with the movie; it's neither too much nor too little. Really well crafted.
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Catch Me If You Can, War of the Worlds, Saving Private Ryan, Empire of th Sun, E.T. and Jaws are not better than Amistad.
Other films in that list are on a par however.
Wow... man... Amistad better than E.T. and Jaws??? That's pretty far-fetched.
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IMHO Titanic is a very badly crafted score, although I can admit that dramatically the music is well thought out. It's just completely wrong in terms of orchestration and arrangements. Plus, it's so freaking close to Horner's past works both in terms of melodies, instrumentation and harmonic structure.
I wouldn't even think of comparing to the perfectness of JW's Amistad.
I forgot LA Confidential was nominated that year... The score works extremely well in the picture AND is very well crafted. Completely deserved the oscar too in my opinion. Maybe even more than Amistad. BTW, saying the score is not nearly as critical to the film as Horner's is for Titanic is simply ludicrous. Watch the film again!
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I completely love "Dry Your Tears, Afrika", and I like listening to the whole score from time to time... But the movie tanked; maybe that didn't help the score?
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Most of film music is crap, but it still hasn't had 200 or 300 years of "natural selection". When it's brilliant, it really is brilliant. It's not the fact that it is film music that makes it inferior in any way. It's just a label or category.
I agree... when you think about the classical period, there are perhaps 4 or 5 composers that *really* stand out. Then you have I'd say about 10 "good" composers, and the rest has been forgot in history (except by connoisseurs, of course).
That's most certainly what will happen to film music.
To me, film music is closer to ballet than Opera. As in ballet, some film music is purely functional and doesn't work as a stand-alone piece. But, as in ballet, most of a good film score should be able to stand on its own.
We also have to remember the fact that the current Hollywood industry forces most composers to make compromises; "art" is not something valued a lot these days. Moreover, the kind of relationship that Diaghilev and Stravinsky enjoyed during the flourishing years of the Russian ballets is extremely rare in Hollywood because the people who decide (ie. studio executives) usually don't care about "art". It just needs to be effective and entertaining.
As a result, while most composer sincerely try to do their best, they also have to take into account plenty of other considerations that ultimately have an impact on the quality of their music.
Williams is one of the only lucky SoB who is pretty much free to do whatever he wants; but as we can see with Ep. II and III, that still doesn't give him the final say as to what ultimately makes it in the movie.
It seems that we might be a little too Hollywood-centered, and that looking at other markets might open up the discussion a little bit. I know for example that the artsy (ie. non "commercial") market in France has some very interesting composers/director collaborations (not necessarily to say that I like it).
H.
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JW is who he is because he freaking controls everything that has to do with his scores; everything comes from him and even the people who work for him basically do what they're told. It's easy to see JW has "the nice guy", but truth is he's not a funny guy at all when it comes to his work. He *knows* what he wants, he's *very* detailed and he doesn't leave anything to chance. In the JW world, there's no such thing as a drum part that would say "play cool action drum pattern here".
Hellgi
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My two cents...
While I mostly agree with Miguel's post, I disagree with its tone. Can't we have a discussion without bashing at each other?
His post wasn't against *you* yet you replied like if it was. Seems to me you took it a little too personal maybe?
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I don't think anyone on this forum or even Giacchino himself would align himself presently at the skill level of Williams. That's just not the case. Both Erik and I do believe that someday in the future Giacchino will be at a comparable level of compositional skill.
I don't know... I believe that you of course get better and improve your skills with time, but if you look at John Williams's old sketches from 30 years ago, they look exactly like the one he does today...
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Probably written in his contract that he receive that credit even though he didn't have any interest.
That's what I think too.
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I do think JAWS was a pivotal career move for Williams and it demonstrated how powerful a film composer's influence could be on the narrative.
Jaws was also a pivotal moment for film scores. Even though the symphonic style would only clearly come back after Star Wars, Jaws was the precursor, the movie in which symphonic music could again be used to entertain people!
H.
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TOD has the most emotional ending, its quite touching for the children to be returned to their homes and it has the best end credits too
I love the ending in Last Crusade, with Indy, Henry and Salah (sp?) on their horses chatting and then riding into the sunset. What a cool ending for the trilogy.
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Yeah, I tried playing it at the piano, it sounds horrible!!!
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Hmm... I did a search and couldn't find any post on that subject, even though it seems strange that is has never been discusses here before... but I'll try anyway.
I'm looking for the exact chord progression of the first 12 bars of the Imperial March (over the melody of course). Does something like that make any sense?
|| Gm / / E♭ | Gm E♭ Gm / | / / / Cm | F#⁰ E♭ Gm / |
Gm / / / | Cm / / B⁰ | A⁰ / / E♭|Gm / Dm / |
Gm / / / | Cm / / B⁰ | A⁰ / / E♭| Gm E♭Gm / ||
Thanks,
Hellgi
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Well we still got the complete SW OTs, Superman, and several others despite this so on balance it really doesn't change anything IMO. Like Hellgi said there are probably other issues holding those up: cost to produce and market, reuse fees, etc.
Yes, anyone can produce a soundtrack, the problem is securing the right to do so from the publisher (usually the studio owns the publishing rights). If you want to re-issue a soundtrack for Raiders, for example, you need to get Paramount (or their publisher)'s permission.
Turns out that for most recent scores, they don't allow it because they want to make sure they have the possibility to do it at a more "convenient" time if needed (ie. cross-marketing crap). Reuse, producing and marketing fees are a "financial" issue which prevents small labels from doing it themselves. But that doesn't prevent another, bigger, label from doing it.
One very annoying trend (which is actually not as bad as it used to be in the 90's) are the "song" soundtracks, where the score only shows up in one or two tracks. Disney for example owns the publishing rights for many of William Ross' scores and he can't release a score-only CD for those scores until Disney agrees to it (even if Bill or someone else took charge of producing and marketing the CD).
So accoridng to Hellgi, John doesn't care what we think....so were incidental, how rude.
(in my best Anthony Daniels)
I think he cares, but not that much. There are more important things in his life.
Plus, John Williams is who he is... if he thinks "complete score CDs" are useless, nobody will be able to change his mind about it. Or at least will it be *pretty* hard.
But you gotta love that in John, because if for all the things he does right, I have to accept the fact that he himself will never produce complete scores CDs, well... I think it's a pretty good deal.
Hellgi
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I completely, 100% think so. Although there are also rights issue in the balance.
I also completely, 100% think that he's out of touch with his fans because he doesn't really care that much. He's just too busy on other, much more important things. I mean, I would love him to take a month off to oversee a complete release of Indiana Jones, but I'd rather have him write or take some time off in Hawaii.
To be honest, I really wonder how something like TPM:UE ever came out. I mean, it wasn't like the Special Edition for the original trilogy, where there was a specific reason to do so. Plus I don't think Sony made a lot of money on that release. Or maybe they think they would. I can totally see someone from Sony going to John Williams and arguing about how great it would be to have an expanded release, especially considering how little amount of work it would require (imagine, you can just get the stereo tracks straight from the Avid! No editing required!). I would imagine they insisted so much that JW thought, heck, why not, if that's what they want, do it. And then it was done so cheaply that he was "annoyed" and they never did it again (and probably never will!).
Hellgi
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Now that's interesting, I was always of the opinion that Williams had very little to do with the actual CD releases, that he delegated that to someone else. Does this mean, for instance (and I'm opening a can of worms big enough to catch every fish in Lake Michigan here) he gave a final green light on the Phantom Menace "Ultimate Edition" knowing what the final product would be like?That's actually an intriguing point, especially given that I once speculated that Williams bore only ultimate and therefore peripheral responsibility for the contents of the "Ultimate Edition" release. If Williams is as much of a control freak as Hellgi describes, then one wonders how deeply Williams was involved with the release and why he would want his work so shabbily represented.
I thought this had been cleared up by now?
Williams didn't care at all for the Ultimate Edition release. Sony released it under fans' pressure. Of course they asked Williams about it but he thought that the original CD was enough and that releasing the rest didn't make any sense.
As you may have noted, Williams's soundtracks do not usually have a lot of tracks, and those tracks are on average rather "longish", in the 1'30" or longer. Compare it for example to Tom Newman's soundtracks, with their 25+, 50- second tracks (I'm generalizing to give an idea).
TPM:UE is an UFO in Williams' discography. Think about it: the packaging is very different; the CD's tracks are chronological order (very rare for williams); it contains music cut specifically for the picture (included the musically-horrendous rendition of Duel of the Fates at the end), and many very, very short cues (14" seconds for the shortest?).
This release was utterly non-Williams. He didn't care for it and - as far as I know - basically gave Sony the greenlight on anything they would want to do. He's just not a fan of complete scores on CD.
Hellgi
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The nazi theme in LC actually rather well sums up the problems with the film. It's overly cartoony.
Ahhh, come on... it's fun!!! It doesn't take itself too seriously. I love it.
There are moments of such sweeping mystical effect in Raiders, such as the scene with the old man, the map, the uncovering of the ark. In LC, that element is totally non-existentI really don't agree. Most of the scenes where Sean Connery talks about the grail are mystical.
And in the first part of the movie. when Indy asks, "Do you believe in it Marcus? Do you believe that the grail exists?", man, that's one my favorite scenes of *ALL TIME*, seriously, just writing it down gives me spine chills. The music and screenplay in that scene is so incredibly great. It makes me believe in it even though I'm not a religious person. There are so many moments in the movie with mystical aspects.
There's also - I think - some seriousness in the movie. Like when Sean Connery slaps Indy. The dialog and acting is just perfect...
HENRY- That's for blasphemy. The quest for the Grail is not archaeology. It's a race against evil. If it is captured by the Nazis, the armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth. Do you understand?INDY- This is an obsession Dad. I never understood it. Never. Neither did Mom.
HENRY- Oh yes, she did. Only too well. Unfortunately she kept her illness from me until all I could do was mourn her.
... or when Indy's looking at the tablet (at Donnovans')... or when they realize in the zeppelin that they're going back to Germany:
INDY: "They're turning around. They're taking us back to Germany."MAN, I love that scene too. There are some many moments of a great combination of directing, acting and music.
I really loved that movie... there- I said it!
Hellgi
Should Amistad have won the Oscar instead of Titanic?
in General Discussion
Posted
Because its sounds crappy and completely fake!
And since the movie is supposed to make me believe that they recreated the freakin' Titanic, I believe a real-life score for orchestra + choir would have done a much better job to support the visuals.
I don't want to compare it necessarily with a JW-type score (even though that movie definitely called for something like that in my mind); it's just that even Horner had better orchestrated scores in the past, so I just don't agree with the artistic direction he took for the score.
On another note, I heard that Horner only had, like, two or three weeks to write the score. Anybody heard that too? It could explain why he went that direction.
Hellgi