DarthDementous

I always find the discussion about how recognizable by the larger public a theme is totally irrelevant to its quality. 

That's fascinating to me that one of my favorite parts of the theme is its biggest sticking point for other listeners. "One man's trash" indeed!

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
 
Disney doesn't decide who scores the Marvel films, Marvel does.
 
And Kathleen Kennedy will decide who scores Star Wars.

There is no Doctor Who prom this year, no.  The BBC does like to fashion at least one (but preferably three or four) of the Proms concerts around its popular TV franchises, however tenuous the musical link; this year for example there will be a prom concert based on Strictly Come Dancing.
 
There is a seemingly bottomless well for these tie-ins.  Personally I am really looking forward to next season's Don't Get Done, Get Prom in which presenter Dominic Littlewood dispenses consumer rights advice to a packed Royal Albert Hall while the BBC Concert Orchestra saws its way through the light classical repertoire behind him.
 
Book your tickets now!  You are number 47,319 in the queue!

Better to casually discuss another great composer than have certain folks spouting quasi-intellectual vitriol about Williams.  

Because this thread has served its purpose long ago, might as well convert it into a HZ Church thread.

Only the very finest scores have that sort musical narrative. 

I feel PoA would be more cohesive if we had the complete score to listen to. The same revelations occurred for me with the CS for KotCS which would introduce motifs that the OST wouldn't have.
 
 

You're talking about this theme I believe
 
 
If I'm not mistaken it's a Badelt theme (and curiously enough one of the Conrad Pope orchestrated cues).

I believe in the OST it's simply two recorders (soprano?), but on the YT video with JW playing it with the Boston Pops it appears to be a couple of flutes and a couple of recorders. Not completely sure to be honest!

Some of the best music composed for film or TV today!

I have listened to the complete recording sessions and you realize that the soundtrack album is not even remotely representative of the score.
 
Like one of the highlights for me is when the kids enter the Great Hall for the first time. Williams introduces a great new theme for that which is absent on the OST.

That's exactly what a Spambot would say!  (That or something about making $10,000 from its couch.)

Bloodbait dissapears and at the same time Cantus Venti emerges....
 
Hmmmmmm....

There were like 5 or 6 movies that came out total in 1977. Maybe one or two channels on TV. And porn was difficult to get. Of course it was an instant classic. 

It is a quote from the little known show Seinfeld.  As to why, just my way of treating the conversation with the degree of seriousness it deserves.  People criticism Rey's theme because it will not be remembered 20 years from now?  Come on, that is only evidence 20 years from now.  We cannot use our speculations about the future as real evidence of anything in the present. 
 
Maybe it will be remembered, maybe not, we just have to wait.  I doubt the Force theme was an instant classic in 77 (though Luke's theme was), but it has endured. 

I actually don't think it's possible to compose a theme, especially for the movies, with the intent of it becoming famous. It either happens or it doesn't.
 
No one figured the Pirates Of The Caribbean theme would become huge, yet it did.
 
The assertion that Rey's theme has failed because it won't be known to the masses 20 years from now is ridiculous. (There are many great Star Wars themes that aren't known to the general public)

I agree it's a little too much "death star" by now, but the potential for endless storylines is there (just look at all the books and stuff). In any case, I just think the universe is so engrossing, I want to be envelopped by it time and again, even if the storyline is similar.

Williams has been with the franchise from day one. He has established the sound of the franchise, hence he knows best how to replicate that sound. As somebody else on this board once said, maybe some other composer somewhere is capable of writing music which sounds like Williams' "Star Wars", but nobody can think like Williams. So, for the sake of retaining the same musical style, Williams is unequivocally the best choice.
 
As for the bolded statement, you have nothing to back it up.
 
 
Where have you seen people do that? Sure, some people on this board have brought up their favourite "short musical moments", but it doesn't mean that they like that track, or the whole soundtrack, only because of those short musical moments. For example, the TFA end credits are my favourite end credits out of all the SW movies, but not because I like some small parts of it. It has a very strong structure, and the logic and fluidity with which JW manages to exhibit all the major TFA themes is virtuosic. I do have a favourite part (when Rey's Theme and the Force theme play together), but it is merely a favourite part in a beautifully sculpted and structured piece of music (IMO).
 
 
I don't get what you mean by this. Speaking for myself, I have a clear favourite Williams score, and I have pretty specific reasons as to why that is. 
 
 
Not true. Some things get better the more you listen to them, some things stay the same, and some things get worse. Where did you get this idea from?
 
 
I listen to the soundtrack because I like it. It is one of the more "operatic" film scores written in recent times, and I think there are many moments in there which are particularly ingenious. There's no need for a person like you to come on here and try to convince us that the music is forgettable and won't be remembered in 10 years time, or that the "majority" thinks that it doesn't have "as much vision and talent" as his previous scores. As if I give a crap. I think it's great and I will certainly remember it!  
 
 

 

@Cantus Venti did you just agree with @artguy360's sarcasm? hoo boy. 
 
could you please stop with this insulting notion that the only reason I give praise to TFA's score is because its 'Star Wars' or its 'John Williams' or I'm 'caught up in the hype' like I'm some blind fan-boy? I adore the score because I think its masterfully constructed, perfectly compliments the movies' emotional beats and delivers on the quota of memorable themes and moments of music. there's only about 2 or 3 tracks that I don't enjoy listening to, I can just shut my eyes for the rest and have a complete understanding of what's going on in the movie without needing to see it, like the Original Trilogy scores.
 
we get it, you don't think its up to scratch for John Williams, but just leave it at that than trying to convince all us 'sheeple' that we're misguided and should heed the statistics, ironically what you were trying to disprove was important about TFA on account of its critical and fan praise.
 
and before you edit your post or try and claim that you're not doing this, let me directly quote from your post:
 
clearly its not fine if you can't see this score as legitimately being liked (standing the test of time) because its all about the hype, something which you hilariously think pointing out makes you intelligent.
 
 
why do we care about the majority's opinion anyway? I thought it was quite known that something doesn't have to be popular to be good, especially something even more subjective than film-making: music.
 
 

Basically any time he uses a third relation... (For the theory nerds out here)
 
But for more specifics, I love any of the transitions for the seasons (the tree moments from fall to winter, winter to spring, etc.) in The Prisoner of Azkaban. They are virtuosic for the solo instruments and just gorgeous.
 
Aunt Marge's Waltz oboe solo is just dripping with sass as well. Matches the scene perfect.
 
The Terminal piano and bass duet at the beginning of Jazz Autographs is just contrapuntal perfection, particularly from a rhythmic standpoint. especially the duple and triple play.
 
E.T. and Close Encounters have far too many moments to even mention. The opening's in particular I think convey such a great amount of fear and uncertainty while exploring so many post-tonal colors. 
 
Jurassic Park "Journey to the Island" after the fanfare from 7:30-8:00 and 8:30 to the end is a perfect setting for the entire film.
 
I'm most impressed with Williams when he finds a new color I haven't heard before, a line/countermelody that is genius or a rhythm that incorporates syncopated jazz in a way not normally done in orchestras.
 
Just a list of some more of my favorites from a more technical perspective:
The flute/trumpet octave mix and the clarinet/bassoon quartet from Hymn to the Fallen
The Bass Clarinet substitute for bass in The Knight Bus
The simple rhythmic layering across registers for Buckbeak's Flight (especially when the bass drops out)
The horn layering of "Lando's Palace,"
The Fugue in Jaws
The Ives style writing dueling melodies in Jaws
The contrasting rhythmic layers he uses for "The Asteroid Field,"
The slow accellerando he uses for the Battle of Hoth AND the Battle of Endor,
The viola ostinatos that tie together the entire Star Wars Prequels (DOTF, and the beginning of RotS etc.),
A Dream Discarded (which has as much to do with composition as Yo-yo Ma's impeccable ability to choke the tone of his Cello to tear every bit of your soul to shreds), 
The descant the violins have in "Flight to Neverland" over the woodwinds around 2:08, 
Chords for "The Immolation Scene" (They are some of the most devastating written for strings, second only to Barber of course),
and probably my favorite is a combination between him and the cellists/alto's in Close Encounters that blend so well at times you can't tell them apart. 

@Cantus Venti did you just agree with @artguy360's sarcasm? hoo boy. 
 
could you please stop with this insulting notion that the only reason I give praise to TFA's score is because its 'Star Wars' or its 'John Williams' or I'm 'caught up in the hype' like I'm some blind fan-boy? I adore the score because I think its masterfully constructed, perfectly compliments the movies' emotional beats and delivers on the quota of memorable themes and moments of music. there's only about 2 or 3 tracks that I don't enjoy listening to, I can just shut my eyes for the rest and have a complete understanding of what's going on in the movie without needing to see it, like the Original Trilogy scores.
 
we get it, you don't think its up to scratch for John Williams, but just leave it at that than trying to convince all us 'sheeple' that we're misguided and should heed the statistics, ironically what you were trying to disprove was important about TFA on account of its critical and fan praise.
 
and before you edit your post or try and claim that you're not doing this, let me directly quote from your post:
 
clearly its not fine if you can't see this score as legitimately being liked (standing the test of time) because its all about the hype, something which you hilariously think pointing out makes you intelligent.
 
 
why do we care about the majority's opinion anyway? I thought it was quite known that something doesn't have to be popular to be good, especially something even more subjective than film-making: music.
 
 

I think this is likely and makes me wish we had Williams doing it even more. 

Maybe Desplat heard that I thought his music was boring, so he graciously stepped aside.

I think these reactions depend on expectations and indeed perceptions of Kylo Ren as a character.
 
To my mind Ben (or Ren) shows the impetuous immaturity of youth very clearly in the film. He has been raised to a position of power by Snoke, which he thinks he deserves through his skills and lineage but is constantly hounded by insecurity and immaturity. He lacks focus and concentration, self control, that would allow him to rule his passions and rage, from which he seems to think he can draw a lot of his power but which is mostly shown as a weakness not a resource. There is arrogance and pride in him and wounding of his pride and ego when his own actions and rash choices cause failure lead to uncontrolled rage. He has a legacy to live up to and he obviously fears that he can't.
 
He is the Darth Vader wannabe but actually still far from attaining such status or power. He throws his authority around with mandate from Snoke without actually having quite yet earned it, at least during the events we see in the film. And just like Darth Vader in the first SW film Kylo Ren is still an errand boy of a more powerful manipulative being, Snoke, not the head honcho even though he wields a lot of influence over the First Order.
 
Musically Kylo Ren's themes, the fanfare and the constantly descending fateful line to my mind capture this essence of the character quite succintly (be they worn dramatic musical devices or not). That exclamatory fanfare connects with the Imperial tradition (note the fanfarish flourishes surrounding the theme on Jakku, which seem to be derived from the final section of the Imperial March concert suite) and is a classic "bad guy is here" calling card which really shows the egomaniacal bluster of Kylo in his Knight of Ren persona. It exhibits his impetuous nature with short angry musical burst, an exclamation, which flares up suddenly, just like his anger and violent behaviour. He wants to be Darth Vader but can't quite summon up similar persona no matter how he postures around in a helmet and black clothes. Hence the theme doesn't go much beyond the initial 5-note motif.
 
The second theme for Kylo, the descending line is simple, almost obsessive, strangely mournful and threatening at the same time in how it constantly repeats (sometimes over churning low strings), depicting his inner conflict and self doubt, which manifests especially in his encounters with Rey who tests his power with the Force but Williams alludes to his susceptibility to the dark side with it when he injects it under the dialogue of Han and Leia as they discuss how Snoke manipulated their son to join him. There is a pull between the light and dark in him. Williams also uses the motif freely as secondary material for Kylo Ren for the sake of aural variety and alternates the two motifs e.g. in The Ways of the Force although it could be said that each motif underscores specific dramatic beats in the duel as well.
 
So I personally feel these two compact ideas to be pretty accurate musico-dramatic equivalents of two different sides of Kylo Ren's persona. He in a sense has not earned a full fledged villain theme yet although his motifs are the main villanous material of the score. It is no Imperial March but to my mind it didn't need to be. Let's see if Wililams might actually get to expand upon these musical ideas in the sequels in a way that feels natural progression and possibly create a lengthier thematic representation for the character.
 
P.S. Keep up the good work with the composing.