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DominicCobb

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  1. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Bofur01 in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Decent theory but I don't know if I buy it. On paper using Yoda for Lando makes sense (ESB connection and Yoda's theme was used in Cloud City), but the way it plays during Reunion wouldn't really fit the scene with Lando. No I think Williams was kinda just doing a greatest hits roundup and wanted to throw in two of his favorites (Yoda and Luke and Leia). 
     
    Watching how the scene plays out you can sort of imagine the reasoning behind them too. Yoda's theme starts up when we see Klaud (the big alien creature) and then plays through the scene of Chewie getting his medal from Maz - so maybe the connection is "puppet creatures." And then Lando and Jannah were originally implied to be related so I think the Luke and Leia theme usage is supposed to work with that familial connection.
  2. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Falstaft in "Falcon Flight" from Ep. 9 Appreciation   
    A great cue (so good they used it throughout the movie), but I can't help imagine how it could have been even better if the sequence had more time to breathe.
  3. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Fabulin in "Falcon Flight" from Ep. 9 Appreciation   
    A great cue (so good they used it throughout the movie), but I can't help imagine how it could have been even better if the sequence had more time to breathe.
  4. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to Falstaft in "Falcon Flight" from Ep. 9 Appreciation   
    Hi everyone. In the same spirit as the "A New Home" from TROS appreciation thread, I thought I'd kick off discussion of another stand-out cue from The Rise of Skywalker.
     
    I'm tempted to call "Falcon Flight" the best action cue from Episode 9, though far too many of its attractions are obscured in the film mix to notice. It seems to me to be as good a synthesis as we could ask for of the thematic richness of the OT action-style with the PT and ST's emphasis on quick changing gestures and repetitive ostinati. 
     
    Over its brief duration, we get series-standout renditions of:
    0:12 - Emperor's Theme. I simply love this arrangement, especially the atypical tritonal bass motion for the F#m - Am/C progression.
    0:30, 0:45, 1:30 - March of the Resistance, really being used in an exciting and integral way
    0:57, 2:05 - Rebel Fanfare, giving more proof that JW now treats it as much as an all-purpose hero theme (or Millennium Falcon theme) than something specifically for the Rebellion.
    1:14 - New Heroics Motif, which seems to sprout from Poe's Theme and the Main Theme so seamlessly. And what trumpet writing!
     
    It's not just themes: I think channeling of the OT's harmonic language is nowhere more exact, down to the pitch-perfect Db(#4)/G => C cadence at the end, bringing us right back the ANH's sound-world (and, by extension, Holst's Mars). 
     
    The new "one-cue-wonder" material is great too. I love how each of the three lightspeed jump destinations garners its own distinct musical material.
     
    And underneath much of it, a vigorous string ostinato that nods back, intentionally or not (I think intentionally -- it's too on-point!) to Hyperspace from ESB. And note how the string figure, while consistent as a texture, is actually never repeated for more than a measure or two without some substantial musical alteration. (cf. "The Master Switch" from Rogue One to see the difference between a master and an imitator..)
     
    What do you all think?
     
     
     
  5. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to mrbellamy in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Yeah I mean, it’s really more a fault (or merely a fact) of the films that there’s not as much of a conversation happening with the prequels. And even then Williams reached back in some surprising ways, not just melodically but stylistically the sequel scores often have a lot in common with the prequels, since there’s obviously a direct line in his development as a composer from Sith to Awakens.
     
    I won’t watch the video. The Star Wars scores are not infallible. There are plenty of things to criticize compositionally beyond whatever was out of JW’s hands. What’s nice about coming here instead for those conversations is I can always expect that we’re all coming from an awareness of what John Williams was and wasn’t responsible for, and basic respect for what he’s done and tried to accomplish through nine ambitious scores for movies that gave him the grand canvas but — to be nice about it — weren’t always the best conditions possible for masterpieces. Either on a score-by-score basis or within the larger framework.
  6. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    What point was he trying to make about Duel of the Fates? He started off by saying it was "the most upsetting thing" about the score, seemingly referring to its absence. He then cites a trailer remix of DOTF, as if it were Williams music that got dropped from the film (with no supporting evidence).
     
    He then laments that no prequel music was reused in the sequel trilogy (not strictly accurate, but I digress). Why would prequel themes reappear in a trilogy set ~60 years later, when those characters are long dead? Doesn't that directly contradict his earlier argument about re-contextualising older themes where they don't belong, just because they sound cool?
     
    That was the moment I realised this video was like a YouTube comments section come to life. You know, those same people who complain that the trailer music sounded cooler than the actual scores, that the sequel trilogy had no memorable themes, etc.
  7. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Started off like an intelligently presented discussion about why the film doesn't work, finishes like a raving man-child, indistinguishable from thousands of other clickbait videos on these movies.
     
    A shame because there's some interesting points but it goes off the rails and devolves into childish nonsense, also not particularly well researched. At least half a dozen examples were instances of tracked music (the Vader references, Force theme for Lando, Han & Leia for Leia's sacrifice, etc). He even mentions the leaked spreadsheet, which specifies these tracked cues.
     
    It got tedious when he started ranting about (arguably) the film's strongest musical moment, the Rey/Force themes at the end. Why is Rey's Theme a bad choice when she's calling out to the Jedi, but the Force Theme is also a bad choice when she harnesses the Force and destroys Palpatine? The two moments are thematically interchangeable -- you could make the argument for either theme at either moment (personally I thought this was a missed opportunity for Williams to reprise the Rey/Force theme in counterpoint, like in TFA's credits).
     
    And even though it's tracked, Han & Leia's theme for Leia's decision to contact Ben makes sense. He's the product of their relationship and Han died trying to save him. Leia's decision is the culmination of that relationship and her final act as Ben's mother. That said, I am curious how Williams originally scored that moment.
     
    He also didn't make it clear that many of his points were a result of bad music editing than bad scoring. He cherry-picked re-contextualized musical moments in TROS while ignoring similar instances in films past (Emperor in TLJ, Luke's Theme for a random action scene in TPM, Luke's Theme tracked into random action nonsense in AOTC, The Duel for Yoda vs Palpatine in ROTS, etc).
     
    It would be refreshing to hear a reasoned, calm discussion about the application of music in this film. If that's what you're after, this isn't the video you're looking for.
  8. Thanks
  9. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Pieter Boelen in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Absolutely right. And I think Escape is excellent, that moment and others within that sequence are such good cinema, but I know people here complain about the edits made to that cue in the film. But it's nothing like what JJ did, and the music still shines, even if things have been shuffled.
  10. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from kelliwisethebrave in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    I will say about TLJ, even if it is the least of the trilogy in terms of new themes, I’d argue in every other way it is the best score of the three. The cleaner editing certainly helps, but in general it is a more fully realized and coherent work. Nearly all the best cues from the trilogy come from that film, in my opinion, because they are ones that are so closely linked with the film’s sequences. The Supremacy, Holdo’s Resolve, The Battle of Crait, The Spark, etc. As a film score, rather than a soundtrack in isolation, it excels.
  11. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Remco in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Absolutely right. And I think Escape is excellent, that moment and others within that sequence are such good cinema, but I know people here complain about the edits made to that cue in the film. But it's nothing like what JJ did, and the music still shines, even if things have been shuffled.
  12. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Some of the best music in Star Wars has been totally athematic! What a bizarre criticism.
     
    Off the top of my head, The Immolation Scene, The Asteroid Chase, Anakin's Dark Deeds, Chase Through Coruscant, It Can't Be, The Dark Side Beckons, I could go on all day. 
     
    Some could argue that Williams' slavish reliance on existing themes in the sequel trilogy was more of a detriment than a positive. It's nice he tried to inject some of these one-off musical ideas into the final film, shame JJ tossed them in the bin. And yet all the big musical moments not based on existing themes shine brilliantly in Last Jedi (Finn's Attempted Sacrifice, The Spark, Holdo's Resolve, We Lose Girl Ace, etc.)
  13. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to Arpy in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Yes, and when I find myself listening to TLJ, it's these short little moments that are more fascinating. 
  14. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Smaug The Iron in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Absolutely right. And I think Escape is excellent, that moment and others within that sequence are such good cinema, but I know people here complain about the edits made to that cue in the film. But it's nothing like what JJ did, and the music still shines, even if things have been shuffled.
  15. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Absolutely right. And I think Escape is excellent, that moment and others within that sequence are such good cinema, but I know people here complain about the edits made to that cue in the film. But it's nothing like what JJ did, and the music still shines, even if things have been shuffled.
  16. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    It's staggering how effective the music is for that film. Outside a few cues in the dying minutes, nothing in TROS comes close to these heights:
     
     
    I just can't relate to people who single out the TLJ score as weak or uninspired. What film were they watching? Because Rian and his sound team clearly adored the score Williams wrote and temped the film to give the music the maximum impact.
  17. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    Rian clearly understood (and respected) that the music needs to take centre stage for key dramatic sequences in Star Wars, something JJ completely disregarded outside the obligatory musical closing sequence (Jedi Steps and A New Home).
     
    The key difference is that JJ didn't construct his sequences around music; he conformed the music to his vision (with a hacksaw when necessary). That is not how Star Wars music is meant to function in these films and is a disservice to Williams' music. Contrast that to the big musical moments in TLJ where the entire sequence is crafted around the score, like all the examples you mentioned (plus Paige's death, another powerful musical moment that JJ and his sound team would have drowned in obnoxious sound effects).
     
    The music never has the chance to breathe in JJ's films, let alone take centre stage, among all the shouting and noise.
  18. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    I will say about TLJ, even if it is the least of the trilogy in terms of new themes, I’d argue in every other way it is the best score of the three. The cleaner editing certainly helps, but in general it is a more fully realized and coherent work. Nearly all the best cues from the trilogy come from that film, in my opinion, because they are ones that are so closely linked with the film’s sequences. The Supremacy, Holdo’s Resolve, The Battle of Crait, The Spark, etc. As a film score, rather than a soundtrack in isolation, it excels.
  19. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Will in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    I'd agree, but really TROS doesn't do its new themes any favors when it comes to highlighting them
  20. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to artguy360 in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    TLJ is more closely scored than TFA or TROS with stretches of original music flowing smoothly without noticeable micro-editing (although still present) and the movie itself has key moments where the score stands out and has room to breath. In general the mix is very score-friendly. However, TLJ does not feature the same wealth or highlighting of new thematic material the way TFA, and to a lesser extent, TROS do. Perhaps because of the film narrative itself, Luke's exile material received no development and in fact disappears relatively early in the film and Rose's theme is treated in fairly one note fashion. But however again, TFA and TROS are both sonically waaaay too busy and the film edit rarely allows the score to stand out and the micro-editing kills any sense of musical flow. 
  21. Like
    DominicCobb got a reaction from Mattris in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    I mean, in terms of action cues, it's very short of course but there's no moment for me in TROS that matches Holdo's Resolve. That's a cue that doesn't mickey mouse, and yet is perfectly synced to the visuals and works perfectly across 4 or 5 different intercutting locations to build one of the most fantastic and suspenseful moments in the film.
     
     
    The next cue, Chrome Dome, does have some stabbing and mickey mousing, and that's part of what makes it great for me.
     
     
    Love the cue/scene or not, there's not many moments in TROS where the music is this prominent and tied to the action.
     
    Ultimately, when I think of TLJ action cues, I always think of The Supremacy. What a great cue that perfectly weaves the thematic material with the fast paced thrills and dread of the sequence. Not much stabby or mickey-mousy about that one either. 
     
     
  22. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to Jay in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    I started going through the film and notating the starting and stopping points of every cue (or piece of tracked music) in it, for those who want to hear certain things when you get the blu ray. 
     
    Here's what I have so far, from the start of the film until they arrive as Pasaana
     

    Start End Reel/Part Cue Length Tracked Tracked
    (Prior
    Films) Source
    Music FYC   OST 0:18 1:44 1M01 Main Title 1:26           01A [0-1:26] Fanfare and Prologue 1:44 1:54 TRACKED 1M1A Starry Night from Ep7     0:10         1:54 2:02 TRACKED "Journey to Exegol"   0:08     01A [0:00-0:08] Prologue 0:08 02 [0:47-0:51] Journey to Exegol 2:02 2:50 ?M? "Journey to Exegol" 0:48       01B [0:08-0:56] Prologue 0:48 02B [1:02-1:40 / 2:13-2:33] Journey to Exegol 2:50 3:22 TRACKED 6M13 Rey's Trip To P   0:32     01C [0:56-1:28] Prologue 0:32   3:22 3:32 TRACKED 1M022 The Ninth Beginning   0:10     01D [1:28-1:37] Prologue 0:09 01C [1:45-1:52] Fanfare and Prologue 3:32 3:38 TRACKED 5M06 Hard To Get Rid Of   0:06     01E [1:37-end] Prologue 0:07   4:21 4:33 ?M? "Every Voice Inside Your Head" 0:12             4:33 4:40 TRACKED 1M08 Approaching The Nursery   0:07         01E [2:52-2:58] Fanfare and Prologue 4:40 5:14 ?M? "Every Voice Inside Your Head" 0:34             5:24 5:31 ?M? "The Final Order" 0:07             5:31 5:46 TRACKED "Journey to Exegol"   0:15         02C [1:56-2:13] Journey to Exegol 5:46 6:40 ?M? "The Final Order" 0:54             7:53 10:17 1M14 Falcon Flight 2:14       02 Falcon Flight 2:22   10:17 10:28 1M24 Meditation 0:21             10:28 10:51 1M09 Rey Wakes Up 0:23             10:51 11:59 1M20 Rey Training 0:57             11:48 12:16 1M05 Rey Trains 0:28             12:52 13:43 1M13 Tell Me What They Are 0:51             15:17 17:16 2M30 Rey's Mission 1:59             17:19 19:26 2M06 The Medal 2:07       03 We Go Together 2:10 09A [0-2:33] We Go Together 19:26 20:41 2M02 Fixing The Helmet 1:15             21:14 21:16 TRACKED unknown cue at this time   0:02           21:16 21:42 2M07 Ship Trip 0:26           09B [2:33-end] We Go Together  
     
    It's bugging me I can't place what that tracked bit just before Ship Trip, it sounds familiar yet I can't place it
     
    Also, I have no idea why the cue we used to call "We Go Together" is called "The Medal", because there is no medal seen at all in that scene
  23. Like
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in The Rise of Skywalker - COMPLETE SCORE Discussion - SPOILERS ALLOWED!   
    I'm not convinced this is the case. In actual fact, my current theory is the entire Mustafar sequence was omitted from the November 11 cut!
     
    The timestamp of Vader's Castle in the final cut lines up perfectly if you go from the opening crawl to the space shot of Kylo flying towards the red storm (rather than the shot of TIEs approaching Mustafar).
     
    It's possible they decided the Mustafar sequence was completely superfluous after condensing it so heavily, but they reinstated a few fragments in the dying weeks of post?
  24. Thanks
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in JWFan EXCLUSIVE: The Rise of Skywalker Partial Cue List Revealed   
    The Emperor's dialogue was surprisingly clean, likely because they made it boomingly loud in the mix and relegated the music to surround channels. 
  25. Thanks
    DominicCobb reacted to crumbs in JWFan EXCLUSIVE: The Rise of Skywalker Partial Cue List Revealed   
    Adobe Premiere Pro for the edit, with the 5.1 audio mix removed in places and replaced with just the centre (vocal) channel from the mix (though the music track bleeds into this channel and can't be removed, it's still cleaner than leaving in the entire 5.1 mix).
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