Mephariel

The re-uptake of this thread has been a very interesting and thought-provoking read. (I also admire how civil we’ve all been so far in disputing positions!)
 
A few years ago, my take would have been more conservative/conventional, namely that JW is representative of the skill set that a “proper” professional film composer should have and that composers with less formal musical backgrounds are slowly dragging down the quality of film scoring as an art. (Danny Elfman being a very important exception.) But I’ve become more sanguine about the whole thing lately. Not because I’ve begun to enjoy or appreciate the music of the likes of Zimmer or Balfe (I haven’t and never will), but because I realize composers such as them are, if nothing else, good at the very narrow thing they do and that there’s room in the movie business for their specialization. Zimmer’s music for Dune, for example, would be a godawful sonic experience for most people on its own, but as part of the movie, it definitely succeeds at evoking an otherworldly environment. 
 
As for the actual musical talent—piano performance, reading or writing music by hand, improvisation, etc— of the likes of Zimmer & co., it actually shouldn’t matter, in principle, whether a person can do these things if he can give the buyer what he wants. If producers want the Zimmer sound and a composer can give it to them without the benefit of a conservatory education or sight reading skill, well, why not? We shouldn’t want credentials (or the philosophy behind credentialism) to stand in the way of people finding their way to success. That kind of gatekeeping is classist and elitist and I’d love to think society has had its fill of such things finally.

For me, The Day After Tomorrow is probably his second best film after Independence Day. Everything else is crap. I still can't believe 10,000 B.C. made it into the theaters.

They are great piano pieces for film. The reason "Light of the Seven" is so popular because it encapsulated the emptions of the storytelling perfectly. The build-up to a grand tragedy. Interstellar is extremely popular because the piano themes captures the mysteries of space, and discovery of science so well. I would argue that the simplicity of those pieces are what makes them powerful. Another example is Giacchino's "Exodus Wounds" in War for the Planet of the Apes. The piano writing is stupidly simple, but it cuts deep.
 
To me, those pieces work just as well as other complex pieces in other movies. It is all about the story. This is film scoring, not concert writing. 

They are great piano pieces for film. The reason "Light of the Seven" is so popular because it encapsulated the emptions of the storytelling perfectly. The build-up to a grand tragedy. Interstellar is extremely popular because the piano themes captures the mysteries of space, and discovery of science so well. I would argue that the simplicity of those pieces are what makes them powerful. Another example is Giacchino's "Exodus Wounds" in War for the Planet of the Apes. The piano writing is stupidly simple, but it cuts deep.
 
To me, those pieces work just as well as other complex pieces in other movies. It is all about the story. This is film scoring, not concert writing. 

Not only that, I love the composition of Westworld's theme and I think that is just as emotional as the theme in Forest Grump. Maybe technically not as complex, but it didn't need to be. Djawadi also wrote "Light of the Seven," which is one of the most popular piano pieces in recent times. I also love Tennessee as well, and is one of my favorites from Zimmer. As is the theme from Interstellar, including the piano frenzy at the end of "Coward."
 
So I am not sure what is the relevancy of comparing their writing to Forrest Grump. Silvestri did a great job with that theme, but I think Djawadi and Zimmer's piano themes are beautiful as well. 

To me, this bring up Badzeee's point doesn't it? Brian Tyler is a classical trained composer, and yet he hasn't wrote anything as memorable as Djawadi's GOT theme or ZImmer's Pirate theme. Film composing is mostly about storytelling with music. Tyler has pretty good music knowledge, but as a storyteller, he is average-to-good at best. Personally, I found his music to be cold and calculating, missing a lot of the warmth from top level composers. If you watch him doing a conducting session from "Crazy Rich Asians," it is like he is doing it with his professor watching his every move. 

To me, this bring up Badzeee's point doesn't it? Brian Tyler is a classical trained composer, and yet he hasn't wrote anything as memorable as Djawadi's GOT theme or ZImmer's Pirate theme. Film composing is mostly about storytelling with music. Tyler has pretty good music knowledge, but as a storyteller, he is average-to-good at best. Personally, I found his music to be cold and calculating, missing a lot of the warmth from top level composers. If you watch him doing a conducting session from "Crazy Rich Asians," it is like he is doing it with his professor watching his every move. 

I know this is an old post but I think it needs to be brought up how composing works.

Most composers make a mockup which is essentially the full music created in the computer using a DAW and various plugins to recreate whatever sounds are necessary. These mockups will vary in quality as these sample libraries often have "full strings" patches which represent the full string section, or they also have patches for the individual string sections and you can program first violins, 2nd violins, etc. to get a more realistic sound. If you use full strings, as you play chords the number of string players tends to vary which is why to our brains it does not sound realistic. If you keep the same voicing then sometimes it sounds alright at best.

Technically in that sense, if a composer makes a realistic mockup with a patch for every string instrument, woodwind, brass, etc. they are doing more orchestration and writing a more complete score than john williams is, even if they are not notating anything. 

This is also likely why woodwinds are not prominent in modern film music. It's just easier to do strings and brass. Because we have "full strings" and "full brass" patches, but often not "full woodwinds." And modern composers don't know how to orchestrate woodwinds, so what they do if they use woodwindws at all is mostly for solo lines, rather than any ensemble uses.
 
Composers are effectively music producers and are varying levels of tech savvy. Big composers have assistants which help with tasks too. They also have an orchestrator which translates it to be recorded.

TV and video game composers who never record live music effectively never use sheet music at all.

This has been done since the 90s and john williams is one of the few composers doing it the "wrong" way as no one can hear his music until it is recorded.

Because of this I would not be surprised if plenty of famous composers are quite bad at reading music because they haven't done it for 30 years. Elton John, for example is a classically trained pianist but he said he is bad at reading music because it's been too long since he's done it.

In the same vain, danny elfman likely cannot read or write music more than simply having an understanding of how to read music, but no technical practice to do it at a decent speed to be useful. In the same way my dad is a non-musician but knows how to read music only because he learned what the notes on the page are, what the rhythms represent, etc.

Back in the old days, you would use multiple computers with each computer running one instrument since PC hardware was much slower. You can do multi-computer setups in a lot of Audio software, but these days computers are so fast that you can now load projects with all the instruments on one computer.

As far as modern composers, I would not be surprised if many of them are not particularly good musicians and therefore do not read or write music very well, even if they have the knowledge. Hans zimmer as a pianist would not even be able to play that "Thinking out Loud" ed sheeran piece as it is beyond his playing abilities. If you look at some videos of Ramin Djawadi playing the westworld theme, he honestly wasn't very good.

I would not be surprised if the multi-oscar winning Ludwig Goransson does not really read or write music at a high level despite having studied music and majoring in composing.

just look at how many modern composers no longer conduct their music. 
 

But at the end of the day, none of this has any bearing on whether someone can write good film music or not. Danny elfman is gifted in his own way and writes music in his own style.

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline

I thought the Doctor Strange choice was more odd. If Jackie Chan could play a stereotypical kung fu master in The Karate Kid, I am sure they could have casted a Asian to be a mystical leader. I mean, they did it anyway with Wong and Mordo (stereotypical black mystic). 
 
Regarding Dune, I think since the story took place on another planet, Villeneuve got it right for having a mixture of ethnicities. With that said, I do get the point about casting more MENA actors. Yes, if they did that, there will still be criticism, but that is not really the point. The point is, at least MENA actors would have an opportunity to be in a world-class Hollywood film. 

I thought the Doctor Strange choice was more odd. If Jackie Chan could play a stereotypical kung fu master in The Karate Kid, I am sure they could have casted a Asian to be a mystical leader. I mean, they did it anyway with Wong and Mordo (stereotypical black mystic). 
 
Regarding Dune, I think since the story took place on another planet, Villeneuve got it right for having a mixture of ethnicities. With that said, I do get the point about casting more MENA actors. Yes, if they did that, there will still be criticism, but that is not really the point. The point is, at least MENA actors would have an opportunity to be in a world-class Hollywood film. 

I thought the Doctor Strange choice was more odd. If Jackie Chan could play a stereotypical kung fu master in The Karate Kid, I am sure they could have casted a Asian to be a mystical leader. I mean, they did it anyway with Wong and Mordo (stereotypical black mystic). 
 
Regarding Dune, I think since the story took place on another planet, Villeneuve got it right for having a mixture of ethnicities. With that said, I do get the point about casting more MENA actors. Yes, if they did that, there will still be criticism, but that is not really the point. The point is, at least MENA actors would have an opportunity to be in a world-class Hollywood film. 

Honestly, if Austin Butler is British, he would be my pick. He has the looks, the charisma, and the sharp features for Bond.
 
I also found it curious that Idris Elba has always been linked to a black Bond even when Chadwick Boseman was still alive. Because Boseman would have made a terrific Bond. The magnetic tension he has with ScarJo in this scene is what Bond should have with women. But again, he isn't British. 
 
 

Honestly, if Austin Butler is British, he would be my pick. He has the looks, the charisma, and the sharp features for Bond.
 
I also found it curious that Idris Elba has always been linked to a black Bond even when Chadwick Boseman was still alive. Because Boseman would have made a terrific Bond. The magnetic tension he has with ScarJo in this scene is what Bond should have with women. But again, he isn't British. 
 
 

Honestly, if Austin Butler is British, he would be my pick. He has the looks, the charisma, and the sharp features for Bond.
 
I also found it curious that Idris Elba has always been linked to a black Bond even when Chadwick Boseman was still alive. Because Boseman would have made a terrific Bond. The magnetic tension he has with ScarJo in this scene is what Bond should have with women. But again, he isn't British. 
 
 

Indeed. It's a balance that Skyfall struck damn near perfectly IMO, a deft blend of the old (Bond makes dry quips, has casual sex, the villain has an island lair, he drives the DB5 and uses its weaponry for the first time since the Sixties) with the new (Q is now a cyber-geek type, the 'McGuffin' is a computer hard-drive, said villain is a bisexual cyber-terrorist and the DB5 (shockingly) gets blown to bits).   

I somehow doubt they would do a 40 something year old Bond. It takes them 4 years to make a film. He would be 50 in no time, and approaching 60 after 4 or 5 films. Not sure how they are going to attract a younger generation with a 50 year old Bond again. 

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline

The most striking aspect of the Dune movies to me is how tactile they are. I can feel the sand rippling on the dunes, the wind in my hair, the tremors through the ground. The sort of eyes-half-closed abstract visual of the title shots (that reappear as transition shots in Part 2) is something all of us recognize, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to visualize it. For this, I think it's very fitting with a similarly tactile score. It's not concerned with the intellect or complexity of scoring traditions, but with the visceral impact it can give. The House Atreides melody on bagpipe/electric guitar feels right, and the same theme on duduk over synth chords feels right, though it's a completely different context.

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline

Breaking just now...
 
The Supreme Court on Saturday agreed to decide whether the love theme "A Time of Quiet Between the Storms" can also act as a representation for House Atreides. In a one-page unsigned order, the justices ordered a federal appeals court to continue to keep on hold the distribution of the Dune: Part One sketchbook album in order to mitigate the possibility of evidence tempering. Composer Hans Zimmer dismissed the case, arguing that he has Oscar immunity, and cannot be persecuted for musical abstraction, a crime that carries up to 20 years in Clemmensen asylum. "I hate to call it a love theme," he added, "because it is so much more." He has yet to explain what "more" means. His assistant composer Steve Mazzaro emotionally urged the court to drop the case pleading that "Love is universal and can represent all things."
 
Source: Deadline