HunterTech

I was gonna also post about that, because it seems this has gone for the FYC versions of tracks, as the OST contains portions in various cues that don't show up in film. Moreso than the first score would you need both albums to have the most comprehensive set possible for the score.
 
 
That's the one that pops out when comparing the tracklists. I remember being told that there were various bits that aren't on the FYC, but it seems likely that they're either minor inserts or stuff that got tracked from various cues.

I imagine the surprise digital release of the first DE threw away whatever sales potential it had (especially if (allegedly) there were some bitter buyers of the CD disliking the YT streaming copy of the album). With this, I guess VS and BL decided to be more strategic about it in advertising ahead of time so that people are to be better informed about what they can buy (as well as figuring where the real market is).
 
We did get a proper lossless rip of the FYC eventually, but it is also missing 2m12 in addition to the Where No One Goes tracks, so even further reason for the official release to entice fans.

I had originally meant to write this fairly long tirade in The Book of Boba Fett thread, but it also applies here, I think.
 
Stories and universes like Lord of the Rings and Dune, beyond their bare plot mechanics, take indeed their power and appeal from the details. The world building and its inner coherence are more important than the plot itself, and serve to inform and sustain the story in such an integral way, that the whole construct would collapse without that conceptual backbone. In many ways, the world-building IS the story, so there are no extraneous details that exist solely to fatten the universe without any real purpose beyond giving a simulacrum of complexity.
 
Now, I don't see Star Wars in the same light as those two universes. Star Wars was never about world-building. It was never about a fully fleshed out universe, coherent in its rules and concepts, without which the whole illusion would collapse. No, I've always seen Star Wars as a much more impressionistic creation. The background details don't really matter on their own. They only matter when matched with the main story to form a unified and inseparable illusion. A mythical, archetypical story, yes,  told many times before, but blended in with such a wide array of aesthetical influences to create a considerably original whole. 
 
Star Wars is much more about what is implied, but never stated, about the surrounding universe, than about outright explaining it and filling every possible narrative gap. The universe around Star Wars is the background for the main story, it gives it color and identity, but it never was the main story itself, it never was the crucial backbone for the narrative. That's one the reasons why JW's musical approach worked so well for those movies, it blended the story and the background, but never in a literal way, never in a constricting way, it never locked our imagination into a single option. By not being descriptive, by not being literal, the music made all those narrative gaps feel alive and fertile ground for our own imagination to do the bulk of the filling of the background details.
 
I don't want to see the interior of a Sarlaac. I don't want to know the inner workings of Tusken culture. I don't want to know how Stormtroopers train. I didn't even want to know how the Clone Wars actually happened. Those sort of lore-filling details are fine on the back of the packaging of an action figure, or in a trading card or even in a Video Game. Once you make them happen in live-action, it's like suddenly they actually become real and much harder to ignore. And they subsequently change the way one is able to experience those original films. It taints them. It constricts the imagination.
 
I equate Star Wars almost to a Bizantine or Roman mosaic. When seen as a whole, it looks marvelous:
 

 
But if I isolate and zoom in on some of its tiles, the effect is totally lost
 

 
Like I said, Star Wars always felt much more impressionist to me. The details don't matter. The overall effect is paramount. Focusing on the details is actually detrimental to the whole experience and effect.
 
These TV shows are giving us tiles, not mosaics
 

Given the book is releasing this Friday, someone I know suggested that the DE would also release alongside it based on this post. But does it explicitly state that is going to be the case? Because all the talk on JP's social feed has been about the book and not the album, so I'm not sure if he's maybe waiting until tomorrow to fully confirm it.

Edit: I see @Smaug The Iron beat me to the punch on the other thread lol

Given the book is releasing this Friday, someone I know suggested that the DE would also release alongside it based on this post. But does it explicitly state that is going to be the case? Because all the talk on JP's social feed has been about the book and not the album, so I'm not sure if he's maybe waiting until tomorrow to fully confirm it.

Edit: I see @Smaug The Iron beat me to the punch on the other thread lol

Given the book is releasing this Friday, someone I know suggested that the DE would also release alongside it based on this post. But does it explicitly state that is going to be the case? Because all the talk on JP's social feed has been about the book and not the album, so I'm not sure if he's maybe waiting until tomorrow to fully confirm it.

Edit: I see @Smaug The Iron beat me to the punch on the other thread lol

It was before the Internet, it's impossible to know who much talking was going on about the score.
 
But that score is so iconic, the theme became the de facto Batman theme, to the point it was used in The Animated Series and trailers for Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.
 
Plus, it was introduced in the movie in an awesome Main Title sequence (remember those), where it had all the spotlight and opportunity to shine, not to mention that it is a far, far, far superior piece of music to the Giacchino themes.
 
It was nominated for a Grammy, the score was one AFI's list of 250 greatest film scores. In fact, Elfman become so popular after that he is able, on his own, to sell out the Royal Albert Hall. No way Giacchino is in his league in terms of popularity or legacy.
 
In fact, I would say Elfman's Batman score is as beloved and acclaimed as movie scores get.
 
And it's not even my favorite Batman score

I kind of thought that was the point once I saw the film, especially given it appeared in some of the trailers (plus it fits the more "emo" Bruce Wayne we get in-film). Hell, combine it with Ave Maria being tweaked for The Riddler, and a lot about the score suddenly makes more sense. It does make me wonder if Catwoman had a similar song to inspire her theme.

Everyone keeps listing the Elfman theme, yet when I listen to this particular portion of this track (which is also in the theme suite):
 
The place my brain decides to go to is:
 
Obviously, the 89 theme is more iconic, and yet I'm finding myself feeling like Walker's is perfect for the character. Granted, I think the former has been tainted by the whole JL debacle, and yet I don't know if there'd be much complaints if the B:TAS theme got some use down the road.
 
Having listened to the album days ago, I had very little of the complaints a lot have had, but I do think Gia scores generally aren't the best of listens on their own. The only one I can do that easily with is Ghost Protocol, and that's a deliberately lightweight effort that didn't require too much to be a fun romp (also, the history of M:I film scores was already a bit spotty, so less people would've judged it anyway). Really, with the little I've heard, he's often more enjoyable when he's simply making joy rides than anything that has more substance to it.
 
I normally agree with the argument regarding "it fits the film" being a terrible excuse for more middling scores (I hate the more emotional parts of Fury Road for this reason, and agree with the one user on BR2049), but at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite: I do not have that at all with Gia's Batman. It did more to add to the film than detract, and quite a few of the choices definitely were more logical with the picture in mind. I still wouldn't say it's particularly great, but it certainly is strong enough to be right at home with the other music portrayals. At least it wasn't BvS (despite having a better surrounding support for its banal Bat theme).
 
(Also, the album doesn't have the main on ends, so that sucks)

Everyone keeps listing the Elfman theme, yet when I listen to this particular portion of this track (which is also in the theme suite):
 
The place my brain decides to go to is:
 
Obviously, the 89 theme is more iconic, and yet I'm finding myself feeling like Walker's is perfect for the character. Granted, I think the former has been tainted by the whole JL debacle, and yet I don't know if there'd be much complaints if the B:TAS theme got some use down the road.
 
Having listened to the album days ago, I had very little of the complaints a lot have had, but I do think Gia scores generally aren't the best of listens on their own. The only one I can do that easily with is Ghost Protocol, and that's a deliberately lightweight effort that didn't require too much to be a fun romp (also, the history of M:I film scores was already a bit spotty, so less people would've judged it anyway). Really, with the little I've heard, he's often more enjoyable when he's simply making joy rides than anything that has more substance to it.
 
I normally agree with the argument regarding "it fits the film" being a terrible excuse for more middling scores (I hate the more emotional parts of Fury Road for this reason, and agree with the one user on BR2049), but at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite: I do not have that at all with Gia's Batman. It did more to add to the film than detract, and quite a few of the choices definitely were more logical with the picture in mind. I still wouldn't say it's particularly great, but it certainly is strong enough to be right at home with the other music portrayals. At least it wasn't BvS (despite having a better surrounding support for its banal Bat theme).
 
(Also, the album doesn't have the main on ends, so that sucks)

See, I think it does have character in the context of the film. Outside of the film, there's definitely an issue of relatability.

I saw the film last night - pretty good, nothing really to write home about. I really liked Pattinson's Batman, probably moreso than Bale's.
 
For the most part the music sounded mostly like Gia's usual emotional/dissonant strings. I can't remember the Penguin's theme at all, and Catwoman's material didn't stay with me, although it worked fine in the film. The Riddler's theme stands out a bit more and does it job as a 'puzzle'-driven theme, and the suite on album is nice, but I can't say it really did that much for me in the film.
 
Really only a few sequences musically stuck out to me and gave me a mental note to check out on album - the highway chase, which is to some extent a kind of percussion-driven take on the Batman theme, but helps propel an incredibly chaotic scene, and the opening montage (not Ave Maria - the bit after). Sadly, the final sequences in the stadium with the flood were just Gia back to his Lost roots, which never really did much for me. I also noticed the brass-driven section wherre he dives off the building in Escaped Crusader.
 
I'm going to compare this score thematically with Marianelli's score to Everest, in that both seem on album to be strange creative choices in terms of themes. You'd think that a disaster drama focused on Everest would have a big theme for the mountain (like pretty much every other one does), and it doesn't.
 
Hence, you'd think that a superhero movie would have a big, long-lined theme for the hero, and again, it doesn't.
 
However, watching Everest made it clear in my mind that their focus was 100% on the danger and emotional impact of the mountain - the main theme is subtle and mournful.
 
The resemblance to the Imperial March is absolutely there and I totally get that some JW fans may be unhappy that Gia has ripped off JW's creation. I had the same 'what the hell is this?' reaction when I heard the suite on YouTube. However, by the end of the opening montage I realised why his theme is what it is - the narrator talks about the Bat Signal being not so much a heroic call, as a warning to antagonists to be afraid. As has already been pointed out, the film is very much a detective-driven take on the character - Batman/Wayne is almost like Sherlock in some scenes - and hence this minimalist theme sounds oddly inappropriate on album, but I think it works great once you get the approach the film has taken.
 
I should point out that someone I was with who is generally a Star Wars fan, didn't notice the similarity until I pointed it out. I heavily suspect that this is a musical similarity that only those of us highly versed in scores will notice.

Funny how much of a boring, pointless, overlong, and unnecessary waste of time this discussion about West Side Story supposedly being a boring, pointless, overlong, and unnecessary waste of time is. And now we're a full page into Film 101 with Professor Ulyssesian and the Tenet guy for some reason???
 
We're all very tired and I think you should give it a rest.

Another display of human error on my end, as that post would've been before I had any interest in the film from positive word of mouth.
 
I wasn't trying to imply that you needed to have a special burden on you, and I'll admit that I think having lengthy discussions with others about the film has clouded my judgement for how to approach the movie. With how much praise has gone into how much effort is placed into every single aspect, I guess I get a bit befuddled when someone from the other side comes in guns a blazing without much variance in their words.
 
I think a thing that most likely separates us in our opinions on the film is just what we think of the original movie adaptation. While I liked it fine enough when I watched it for theater class, I wouldn't say it was a great piece of cinema. It purely appealed to me because of the period it was made in, rather than because I thought it was particularly effective in its presentation of the story.
 
With the new version, I felt it hit a lot more on what actually makes the racial divide between groups what it is. I just don't see what's so "regressive" and "dated" about changing a character who was effectively nothing in the original (Chino) into someone who I partially saw myself in, as well as other people. Plus, I certainly agree with what others have said about it actually having some weight behind its story and character beats, while the previous version effectively felt like this sanitized film length dance number. I'm sure some of this comes from the fact I likely don't have the great familiarity with the story like many others do, but based on my own experiences and what those I know have gone through, this rings much truer to the conflicts that we still face many decades later.
 
So yeah, it goes without saying that our differing backgrounds likely inform why we stand worlds apart on this particular flick. I just wanted to hear what someone from the other end had to say about it. As for me: I ain't a musical guy, but I think it did something right if it made more of an impression than freaking Spider-Man did when I saw that hours later that day.

The 3 Star Wars sequels are probably the most expensive film scores ever recorded in LA, and Disney had no issues forking out the cash for those. They've also brought him back for Solo, Kenobi and Indiana Jones 5. He's basically a "blank cheque" hire, and there's few in the industry with that amount of clout.
 
Remains to be seen whether they'll fork out the exorbitant AFM fees to release expanded soundtracks for the Star Wars sequels, but if Rogue One is any indication it's just a matter of time.
 
I'd guess any reluctance to reuse his recordings or themes is more a reflection of legal/licensing headaches. It's probably just a lot easier for approvals if you use generic library music (or original score from another composer) than to licence Williams' material, either the actual recordings or themes.
 
As for the Disney+ shows, it was probably a deliberate creative decision to forge their own musical path instead of falling back on Williams all the time. As those shows matured, they became more comfortable integrating his themes anyway.

You're so weird

@Manakin Skywalker That's a generally good summation, but there's a few details I'd like to correct. Namely, Elfman would've already called it quits by the time Young and John Debney came onboard to do the rescores for SM2. Raimi had been specifically pressuring Danny to ape the temp track, which he absolutely refused to do. Additionally, there's also a chance that he simply refused to budge on how a few scenes were approached, as no other temp tracks besides the Hellraiser cues for the lab sequence has been recognized for the remaining additional tracks. Elfman did fully finish his initial work, so all this would've happened once he decided to walk out.

As for SM3, as far as the compositions go, he absolutely didn't write a single unique note for it. Everything that is referenced from the previous two films are either full on re-recordings that were adjusted to the picture (ala Superman II) or so different in arrangement that it stylistically doesn't sound like him. The former is especially taken to the next level with Deborah Lurie's contributions to the theatrical cut, as just about most of her work is based on tracks that appear in the official score releases for 1 and 2. And if that wasn't enough: a good amount of scenes that originally had Young underscore got replaced with music that is tracked from the first two flicks. This is mostly better detailed in the official music section from the end credits.

That being said: there is nothing to actually indicate that Elfman barred any release of the music. Namely because just about any copyright information you can find on random SM3 cues from YT points to it all being owned by a company associated with Sony. Heck, there is actually an interview with Young stating that Sony would only release the music if there was enough demand for it, implying that it more had to do with them not trusting Young to sell units like Elfman does. Also, there is the possibility of film scores sales being at a low at the time as a reason for Sony deciding not to go with it (which might be backed up by the fact Spidey 2 is strangely difficult to find on CD these days for such a high profile release).
 
And to end off on a confusing note: one of the many promos you can find for SM3 (mainly based on Lurie's work) has a cue variant that is literally titled "7M67 DE Happy Ending (Danny Elfman)." I legitimately have no idea what to make of it, besides my theory that it was an idea that was considered for the ending sequence in SM2 (another theory being that this was something Young had considered at one point during a time when the film had a final swing scene like the previous entries). But we have no way of verifying that without the full sheets, as well as really knowing just why it's specifically labeled as that. It isn't what the movie uses though, so even if it actually was composed by the man, it didn't make it to the screen.
 

Funny you say all that: I believe Deborah Lurie has been an assistant to both Young and Elfman at different points. Which in turn makes it an easy link between the two composers, as she might've possibly been a consultant initially before being hired to do the rescores.

I've never heard any of the particular rumors mentioned here, but the tidbit about the responsibility theme fascinates me, given I always felt it was chosen to play in very specific moments in the film.

All that being said: in an FSM interview, Young only mentioned having Raimi as his guide for which Elfman themes to use and when. I doubt it's an NDA thing, as he was candid about Sony being responsible for bringing Lurie and Debney onboard and why they did so, as well as the general timeframe for when they would've all been working separately. So either it didn't happen, or it was so brief and early on that Chris himself didn't think it made much of an impact at the end of the day.

I wouldn't quite say wall to wall. More like I'm assuming Gia did the usual thing with his albums where he pretty much left out quite a bit of the connective tissue.
 
I got back from the movie hours ago (I liked it a lot btw), and I honestly didn't have much issues with the score. Despite how stagnant all the themes were, they were used well enough with barely the amount of variance to prevent it from feeling truly repetitive. Of course, it might be a different story on the OST, given the amount of complaints regarding just how unengaging much of it is. I usually don't retain the music after a first watch, but it made enough of impression that I'd be curious to listen to it on its own still.
 
Regarding the infamous 4 note theme, my issues about it feeling purely like a build up remains. A good usage doesn't stop me from thinking it needed a good counterpoint. My mind keeps going for Williams Dracula for whatever reason (it's a bat thing I guess), but something like what used to be a Batman theme in BvS (that ended up turning into part of the WW theme) would've complimented it very nicely.
 
Also, a bit of an odd deep cut, but the hopeful theme sure reminded me of this piece:
 
 
I'm sure a certain Candian YouTuber will scream in agony if he ever watches the movie.
 
Anyway, the real important takeaway is that Giacchino managed to throw a Goldenthal wail in there, so I'm awarding it high marks based on that alone!

Trigger warning!
 

The movie he fully admitted he hadn't watched?
 
If it didn't occur to him to think that the people being so impressed by that WSS oner would also be so used to the oversaturated blockbuster market of today, then I think it's fairly likely the bias is still clouding his judgement.
 
I'm sure he's gonna have to bite the bullet eventually if he wants to stay combative with more people having legitimate feedback over the film as a result of the digital release. There's only so much you can use the "I just think it's pointless" card for before you run out of things to say.

Saw the film last night and it’s a definite lock for my favourite of the year.
 
It's strange to think that but a few months ago I could not have been less pressed over the arrival of this adaptation, and was largely skeptical about Spielberg's decision to "waste his time" on it from the start. Sure, the original is almost certainly in my holy trinity of movie musicals, but recognizing that any comparisons would be null was actually the easiest part of the whole ordeal. I don’t consider that film to be untouchable, because what does that even mean and why does it matter? Besides, there have been hundreds of performances of West Side Story, and if Steven Spielberg wants to make a grand foray into the musical genre by leaning on a surefire pick like this, his adaptation is more than welcome and certainly deserves to be realized. I didn’t expect, however, that the now 75-year-old director would end up outdoing himself in every possible way. Then again, I guess I should have known I would end up eating my own words.
 
This is unequivocally a Steven Spielberg production of West Side Story, and while the story and score are always going to be tremendously powerful and resonant, it is nothing short of enlivening and refreshing to see one of the greatest directors of all time take the opportunity to swing for the fences like this, breathing a surge of electric energy and seemingly boundless creativity into a tragic romance I thought I was already more than familiar with.
 
Every review I've read in advance of seeing the film has made it abundantly clear just how much Spielberg wanted to direct this, but my goodness that passion really is just dripping right off the screen. It's not even fair how good everyone is here. Kushner is doing summersaults with the material, and Dudamel's hitting dinger after dinger with the orchestra. The performances squeeze everything out of Newman's adapted score, and the recording is fittingly stunning.
 
This is also Kaminski's best work since Munich. Nobody has a visual language like this anymore. Heck, nobody even blocks a scene or moves the camera like Spielberg does either. This is most obviously a film full of life and energy and movement, but even when the characters aren't dancing, something else is. The script, the camera, the production design- it's all there and working in perfect synthesis. That being said, the choreography itself remains amazing. Only a master could find such thrilling new ways to stage Bernstein and Sondheim’s classic numbers like this. The signature long takes and wide shots only accentuate just how well Spielberg's cinematic toolbox translates to this genre. 
 
I'll further posit that every single casting decision is on-point. I'm well aware that it's going to be a minority opinion but I think Elgort is excellent, and if you're not convinced and still think he's the latest in a long line of woeful Spielbergian miscasts (allegations aside, of course), at least throw a bone for the discovery of Rachel Zegler, who was last seen soaring past Jupiter. I mean, talk about a movie star in the making! Other major stand-outs include Mike Faist in the role of Riff and Ariana DeBose as Anita. I also liked seeing Corey Stoll and Brian D'Arcy James as Schrank and Krupke, respectively. All in all, everyone's on their A-game, whether it be in the background or foreground.
 
I'm well aware the reception of some of the vocal performances on the album was a little lukewarm, but I'll just say it helps immensely to see it all on screen. In fact, watching the film only makes the album more accessible, and I say this as someone who has practically known these songs by heart for years.
 
Anyway, I'm overjoyed and elated and absolutely spoiled to have been able to take in such rich filmmaking as this. I suppose I should probably say something about how people are really missing this in favour of catching Spider-Man 8: Kevin Feige Needs Thirty New Homes or whatever they've called their latest money printer, but what's the point? If this is the last big-budget movie musical we ever get I think I can live with that. Without a doubt, Spielberg and company have knocked it out of the stratosphere.

The movie he fully admitted he hadn't watched?
 
If it didn't occur to him to think that the people being so impressed by that WSS oner would also be so used to the oversaturated blockbuster market of today, then I think it's fairly likely the bias is still clouding his judgement.
 
I'm sure he's gonna have to bite the bullet eventually if he wants to stay combative with more people having legitimate feedback over the film as a result of the digital release. There's only so much you can use the "I just think it's pointless" card for before you run out of things to say.

More news out of Variety. Really picking up steam now!
 
(Okay okay. I'm done now)

JWFAN EXCLUSIVE. I've obtained a leaked screenshot from the upcoming trailer for one of the most anticipated new films of 2022.
 

 
 

Sorry, I was not meaning to imply that this would convince you that this one scene has "good" editing. John himself admits the scene has issues in the interview. I'd have to be an absolute loon to use this as proof the editing of that scene is "good".
 
I share that more so 1.) for additional context on what exactly happened to cause the issue and 2.) bring up how ridiculous it is that people love to use that one scene to dismiss the entire film as even a contender for best editing. John also mentions that briefly in the interview. It's like saying any film that has one rough moment of CGI should disqualify it for Best VFX (and most films nominated for Best VFX do have some rough moments in them)
 
For anyone who has not actually sat down and watched Bohemian Rhapsody, the internet would lead them to believe the entire film is edited this way. I'm so tired of seeing this one scene being shared around. Lol.
I have yet to see anyone pull up any other scenes from this film to further discount it's editing - it's always this one. I do also find it silly though to count the cuts in a particular duration as if that somehow supports that it's "bad" editing. It just all depends on the scene, it doesn't work here, but I can totally see a conversation or a meeting being edited this way to create a vibe of anxiety or tension. 
 
All that being said, the phenomenon John talks about- it feeling different in the theater- is completely true. I had absolutely no negative reaction to the editing of that scene when I first saw it in a theater and you think I would've since I do it professionally. The person I was with also did not notice anything was amiss. I was surprised to find the internet outraged the film won Best Editing simply because of this one scene. It's just not as black and white of an issue as it's made out to be.
 
To wrap up, because it's the internet and if you defend something you simply must think it's a flawless masterpiece - I also don't think Bohemian Rhapsody is a perfect film by any means. It was a very cool experience in theaters, but it does have it's issues - in hindsight, this scene is one of them.