HunterTech

@Manakin Skywalker That's a generally good summation, but there's a few details I'd like to correct. Namely, Elfman would've already called it quits by the time Young and John Debney came onboard to do the rescores for SM2. Raimi had been specifically pressuring Danny to ape the temp track, which he absolutely refused to do. Additionally, there's also a chance that he simply refused to budge on how a few scenes were approached, as no other temp tracks besides the Hellraiser cues for the lab sequence has been recognized for the remaining additional tracks. Elfman did fully finish his initial work, so all this would've happened once he decided to walk out.

As for SM3, as far as the compositions go, he absolutely didn't write a single unique note for it. Everything that is referenced from the previous two films are either full on re-recordings that were adjusted to the picture (ala Superman II) or so different in arrangement that it stylistically doesn't sound like him. The former is especially taken to the next level with Deborah Lurie's contributions to the theatrical cut, as just about most of her work is based on tracks that appear in the official score releases for 1 and 2. And if that wasn't enough: a good amount of scenes that originally had Young underscore got replaced with music that is tracked from the first two flicks. This is mostly better detailed in the official music section from the end credits.

That being said: there is nothing to actually indicate that Elfman barred any release of the music. Namely because just about any copyright information you can find on random SM3 cues from YT points to it all being owned by a company associated with Sony. Heck, there is actually an interview with Young stating that Sony would only release the music if there was enough demand for it, implying that it more had to do with them not trusting Young to sell units like Elfman does. Also, there is the possibility of film scores sales being at a low at the time as a reason for Sony deciding not to go with it (which might be backed up by the fact Spidey 2 is strangely difficult to find on CD these days for such a high profile release).
 
And to end off on a confusing note: one of the many promos you can find for SM3 (mainly based on Lurie's work) has a cue variant that is literally titled "7M67 DE Happy Ending (Danny Elfman)." I legitimately have no idea what to make of it, besides my theory that it was an idea that was considered for the ending sequence in SM2 (another theory being that this was something Young had considered at one point during a time when the film had a final swing scene like the previous entries). But we have no way of verifying that without the full sheets, as well as really knowing just why it's specifically labeled as that. It isn't what the movie uses though, so even if it actually was composed by the man, it didn't make it to the screen.
 

Funny you say all that: I believe Deborah Lurie has been an assistant to both Young and Elfman at different points. Which in turn makes it an easy link between the two composers, as she might've possibly been a consultant initially before being hired to do the rescores.

I've never heard any of the particular rumors mentioned here, but the tidbit about the responsibility theme fascinates me, given I always felt it was chosen to play in very specific moments in the film.

All that being said: in an FSM interview, Young only mentioned having Raimi as his guide for which Elfman themes to use and when. I doubt it's an NDA thing, as he was candid about Sony being responsible for bringing Lurie and Debney onboard and why they did so, as well as the general timeframe for when they would've all been working separately. So either it didn't happen, or it was so brief and early on that Chris himself didn't think it made much of an impact at the end of the day.

So a lot of people's problem seems to be that some of these new approaches do not fit their pre-made up strict idea of what they should be like, and when they don't fit that, it blocks them from being able to appreciate the scores for what they are, even quickly dismissing them for crap when they're really not in the case of Solo, Mando, a lot of Fett and I admit even much of RO. Or in worse cases just writing them off for crap out of the gate for using some instruments they don't like or what they think are instruments or approaches they don't like. Solo was a different mood and adventure, it completely allowed for a differentish Powelly adventure approach (even if it then buried it). Mando especially is different and deserves a different smaller rogueish approach! I wonder how these people dealt with JW's own sound having changed and evolved over the decades, TPM being a very different kind of big brassy score than the OT, RotS already being a very different sound at the end of that particular golden era of JW's, and the ST again being a different sound of his in his late late late period.

Nor can 90% of Morricone's music, or most of Goldsmith's, Herrmann's, North's, Barry's, Mancini's...

Powell has a much greater grasp of orchestrations, harmony and counterpoint.

You're all entitled to your opinion and you don't have to like JP, but this claim is such nonsense. Regardless of the electronics he's using, he's written so much orchestral music of high quality for Solo and other movies. 

Just because he didn't use electronics doesn't make his work closer to the idiom of Star Wars. His Rogue One score to my ears is badly written and orchestrated, it just sounds like a poor man's Williams through and through.
 
I'll rather have Powell being mostly himself and not trying to mimic JW.

Psh, I wish Zimmer could sound like this!

The lack of subtitles is such a non-controversy in the movie...every Spanish scene has them speaking some Spanish and English and all the important lines are in English. It's only "woke" because of people who think they see "woke" in everything. 

Well here it is if anyone wants to take a gander on where it might've came from. Would a DVD/BD menu be a likely possibility?
 
 

Well here it is if anyone wants to take a gander on where it might've came from. Would a DVD/BD menu be a likely possibility?
 
 

If it is, that just means I love it even more.

Throwing opinions about how much this film or that project are beyond or worth of his time and talent is a useless exercise. At this point in his life, the man is doing whatever he wants and likes to do. He lived a greatly privileged life, working with incredible people and on projects that will last beyond all of our lifetimes. He sounds also very serene about approaching the end of his journey on Earth, so he values time greatly and, as he says, six months now is an extremely long period for him. He knows better than any other how to manage time as it's part of his DNA as a composer. We as fans might approve or not if he's using this time for doing another franchise score or a personal concert piece, but it's not our call. Let's just be grateful he's spending his last years among us writing new music and doing concerts all around the world.

A lot of people don't feel that way.  *shrug*

Trailers are meant to represent films, but most of the time they don't - scenes and shots that were cut - editing to change the narrative and tone etc.
 
The theme tracks aren't really that extensive though. I remember when Ode to Harrison was released ahead of Star Trek Into Darkness as a teaser and it wasn't really representative of the score as a whole, in fact, there are variations of that theme I enjoy more than the suite!

Godzilla vs. Kong. Not an objectively good movie by any means, but I loved it on entertainment value (even if I hated a lot of the subplots), and the score is one of the most boring monster movie scores I've ever had the displeasure of hearing in-film. So many great themes over the years for Godzilla and Kong, and the score does nothing to explore them in a satisfying way. 
 
Also honorable mention for Spider-Man 2 in-film. Danny Elfman's wonderful new score was hacked to pieces for lazy, uninspired, nonsensical temp tracks of the first film. Christopher Young and Debney's material was good, but I still cannot watch that film without an edit that replaces the temp tracks with the original music to this day. 

Directors and producers nowadays don't ask for complex music. Take my word for it!

The two Batman scores Goldenthal wrote are, IMHO, the best super hero music ever written. I would buy this in a heartbeat

There certainly is a lot of music for Batman & Robin, I think there’s about 1h 55m of music in the film, which is just over 2 hours long - so it’s almost wall-to-wall music.
 
Goldenthal’s Batman scores are my personal favourite of all the Batman films. They were so much more intelligent than the films they accompanied. Goldenthal’s score really elevated the films for me, and I can actually find a lot of enjoyment in BF and B&R, just because of how much I love the music.
Goldenthal’s writing for both films is brilliant. His style and compositional approach are truly unique and instantly recognisable, while still fitting the tone of the films perfectly. It’s a shame studios don’t have the courage to hire him to take on a contemporary superhero film. From listening to interviews, it sounds like he enjoyed the experience of scoring both films.

Here’s a simplified version of the Cue List. When I have the time, I’ll post a more detailed version, which has all of the inserts, revisions, alternates, etc. It’ll take a bit more time to sort it all out. I’ll also try to finish up my personal Google Sheet (comparing the various sources: the sheets, GEMA cues, session leak, cancelled album and isolated score bootleg). If anyone wants to use it for the ‘Non-Williams’ info thread, that’s fine with me!
 
For now, here’s a short version of the cue list. All of the cue titles are official.
 
Sources: Handwritten Score Sheets, GEMA, Recording Session Leak
 
1M1-2 Front Titles / Dressing 1M3 Pt. 1 The Batcave Part 1 1M3 Pt. 2 The Batcave Part 2 1M3 Pt. 3 The Batcave Part 3 1M4 Scene Of The Crime 1M5 The Diamond 1M6 Batman Thwarts Freeze 1M7 Pt. 1 Hockey Hell Part 1 1M7 Pt. 2 Hockey Hell Part 1 1M8 Frozen Brontosaurus 1M9 Hockey Hell Part 2 2M10-11 Freeze's Getaway 2M12 Freeze Evacuates Capsule 2M13-14 Aerial Chase / Chase In Freeze's Lair 2M15 Batman Thaws Robin 3M16-17-18 Jungle Lab / Bane's Birth / Bane's Activation / Woodrue Kills Ivy 3M21 Alfred In Pain 4M23 Pt. 1 Botticelli Ivy 4M23 Pt. 2 Botticelli Ivy 4M25-26 Frosty And Snow Bunny / One More Giant Diamond 4M27 Nora In Vitro 4M28 Reunion 4M29 Motorbikephilia Part 1 4M30 A Fireside Chat 4M31 Motorbikephilia Part 2 5M32 Ivy Arrives In Town 5M33-34R Observatory Press 5M34 Ivy At Press Conference 5M35-36 Ivy States Her Case 5M37 Bruce Invites Ivy 5M38 Freeze In Love 5M39 Freeze Takes The Bait 6M41 Gotham Ball 6M42 Poison Ivy 6M43 Pheremone Dust 1 6M44 The Auction 6M45 The Uninvited Guest 6M46 Freeze Meets Ivy 6M47 Freeze Takes Necklace 6M48 [No Title] 6M49 Chase Around Colossus 7M50-51 Mystery Of Fate 7M52 Arkham Asylum 7M53 Freeze Incarcerated 7M54 Ivy House Hunting 7M56 Bane Throws Tenants Out 7M57-58 Let's Redecorate 8M59 Besotted With Ivy 8M60 Dick Follows Barbara 8M63 The Precipice 8M64 Barb Reveals Her Past 8M65 Barb Explains Al's Sickness 9M66 The Figurine 9M67-68 Freeze Receives Visitor 9M69 Pt. 1 [No Title] 9M69 Pt. 2 [No Title] 9M70 Unmasked Heroes 9M71 Snowycones Factory 9M72-75 Freeze Turns On Air Cond. / Freeze Makes His Getaway 9M76 Ivy Fails To Ensnare Robin 10M77 Ivy Switches Off Nora 10M78 Freeze Swears Revenge 10M79 Alfred In Sickbed 10M80 Robin Is Jealous 10M82 Sacred Trust 10M83 The Grand Unveiling 10M83S Unveiling Jazz 10M84 Ivy Ensnares Commissioner G. 10M85 Freeze Starts Campaign 10M86 Bane Steals The Signal 10M87 Barb Searches Password 11M88-89 Fillial Love 11M90 Freeze Arrives At Observatory Part 1 11M91 Freeze Arrives At Observatory Part 2 11M92 Freeze Activates Scopes 11M93 Pt. 1 Barb Becomes Batgirl 11M93 Pt. 2 Barbara Dresses 13M94 Robin In Ivy's Lair 13M95 Ivy Foiled 13M96-97 Batgirl Introduces Herself 13M98 Freeze Gloats 13M99 Batmobile Strike Force 13M100 Bring Me The Bat 14M101 Bat Trio Enter Observatory 14M102 The Final Stand Part 1 14M103 The Final Stand Part 2 14M105 Warming Up Freeze 14M106 Nemesis 14M107 Batrobatics 14M108 Realigning Satellites 14M109 The Great Thaw Part 1 15M109 The Great Thaw Part 2 15M109A The Great Thaw Part 3 15M110 Batman Appeals To Freeze 15M111 The Medicine 15M112 Defrostation Of Ivy 15M113 Resurrection Of The Family 15M114 Bat Triumvirate

Or if you use a software played to play your music and don't mind if it doesn't do exact 1:1 passthrough of the original audio data (I do, because otherwise playback of compressed surround files doesn't work, and I haven't figured out if I can configure that selectively), you can simply rely on ReplayGain to do that for you. It calculates normalisation factors for all your tracks and allows you to play back each track or album (!) at maximum volume without clipping. The album setting means that all tracks from the same album are played at the correct relative volume, but amplified so that the loudest moment of the album uses the full bit range without clipping. The per-track option is useful for mixed playlists (e.g. for parties). A good ripping software will allow you to automatically calculate the ReplayGain tags during ripping, but you can also calculate them for a set of existing files. And you can toggle between no gain/per-track/per-album in your player software, so the original audio data is unchanged (and is still played that way if you disable gain on playback).

Music editing isn’t just actual cutting the best takes for the final mix. The music editor - at least in the traditional sense - is the composer’s right-hand person from the get-go, sitting down with composer and director/producer during the spotting session, taking notes of the director’s requests, temp track suggestions and anything that might have an impact on the actual composing; then he takes all the precise timings for how and when music starts and ends, making sure that the music will match the editing; he is the liaison between the music team and the editorial team, as he has constant communication with the film’s editors, keeping the composer updated with all the editorial changes that the film might have during the composing phase (that is what is a nightmare in these days, as movies keep changing until the last minute) and get down the locked cut to the composer; then he oversees and prepares the sync track (streamers & punches and click track) for the score’s recording, making sure the sync is always correct. And he sits down in the booth, checking everything is going smoothly, so he has to know how to read music and speak in musical terms. After the recording is in the can, he sits down with the composer selecting the best takes and assemble the final version to be ready for the mix, where he is usually the composer’s spokesperson. He also has to conform the music edits to any changes the cut might have after the recording.
 
Back in the day, it was really a job involving a lot of tech work being done on analog machines like moviolas and the likes, preparing everything for the recording really manually. Today everything is digital and lots of preparation work is done on music softwares precisely built for this purpose.
 
It’s an absolutely crucial role in the overall process and it’s usually down to a very personal relationship with the composer, as Wannberg had with JW.

Having given the score two listens now, this is likely one of the hardest for me to properly judge currently. In contrast to the previous two entries, I think the first half or so is pretty strong, with some of the most musically interesting bits that Gia has done for the trilogy. Especially fond of the No Good Deed track, with its use of choir and propulsive rhythms and percussion.
 
However, after that, it basically slows to a crawl, as it gets far more focused on the emotional core of the score. And let me just say that while I probably like the new themes more than some, they just ain't used particularly great in what we have. Specifically, the new responsibility theme is a bit too overly dramatic and tragic sounding for an idea that's more supposed to be simply bittersweet. It's what Elfman managed to do so well with his responsibility theme, and even Zimmer managed to capture the sentiment decently in his No Place Like Home/You're That Spidey Guy tracks (don't know if Horner had his own outside of using the main theme for it). With everything I've heard out of Giacchino so far, the man just can't seem to do emotional moments particularly greatly.
 
The villain theme had potential, but it's only used well in the regular suite, which is a problem when Vulture and Mysterio got far more mileage outside of the suites for their films.
 
As for the callbacks, I remain mixed, as I ultimately do like that Gia chose to mainly stick to his own guns for what's supposed to primarily be his iteration of the character. As much as I would love a more full blown reference haven, I imagine it'd be incredibly difficult to balance when you're aiming for mainly original material. I guess what bothers me is that when we do get to the cue where they become very transparent with the past quotes, something about the mixing really lets down otherwise fine arrangements (don't hate the mix btw, though I certainly hate the audible compression/clipping that's more than I would've expected for a score like this). I like the way Doc Ock's theme is used otherwise, and I'm sure I'd like the remaining quotes once I see the film proper.
 
I definitely believe Jay when he says a lot of the really good bits are missing, since it just lacks much of the fun Homecoming and FFH has. I genuinely wonder if Gia got too preoccupied with his other films to really make a proper album, since it's so half-baked as is. The previous two scores certainly benefitted from having more breathing room in their full forms, so I hope to see NWH get out in bootleg form eventually.
 
I absolutely wouldn't call this my least favorite Spidey score. Compared to Spiderverse and TASM2 (which probably are more interesting admittedly), it at least hangs together fairly well. But at the same time, it really serves to remind me how middle of the road Giacchino's take ultimately is. I like the main theme a lot, which certainly still has plenty of mileage to work with, but generally it's hard for me to get worked up much about the scores in general outside of fairly decent. Even the generally well liked FFH really left me a bit cold when I recently revisited it (though that could change with the barely leaked bootleg from today). All in all, better than most give it credit for, but it's very easily overshadowed at the end of the day.

I guess I should've been more specific in my Elfman Spidey analysis, since I obviously have enough affinity for his theme if it's in my favorite score of all time.
 
I should've clarified that I meant the main four note melody that the opening titles primarily focuses on, since I sort of get the impression with the Gia critiques that we're only looking at the bare essentials of his work thus far.
 
And yet I guess that's where my attempted breakdown falls apart, because there's so much detail and glamor within Danny's work that Giacchino simply hasn't even begin to touch with his. The Raimi theme has so much variation and playfulness throughout the trilogy, yet all the MCU one can muster is effectively three moods.
 
Hell, thinking about it now: with the way each note in the theme is drawn out, you can very easily picture Spidey taking a swing for each one. That's the kind of picturesque quality that Elfman can bring to his music than even he himself has trouble replicating now.
 
I'm starting to think I should've saved myself the trouble of writing that post and said I like the simple just as much as the intricate

I think the tone of this film, and the way the character seems to be presented wouldn't really gel with any Elfmanesque fanfare-type theme, or the brooding noodling of Zimmer's take, and when I first heard this new theme Giacchino had written I thought it was almost completely different from what I was expecting, and that's great. There's a tinge of sadness? It's more introspective than overtly extroverted and it leads me to think that the first half the track is for Bruce's character, whilst the rising second half is a motif for the Batman character.
 
One track released so far, so there's not a lot to go on, but already people judging the entire score...

For my own part, I don't have a massive investment in comic book characters or the various incarnations. Having said that, I guess Walker's theme embodies the character most closely for me, mysterious, dark, but also fairly grand. Elfman's does that too but Walker's feels just a bit more thoughtful rather than action packed. But they are both great themes, as is Goldenthal's. Similarly, for me, Elfman's take on Spider-Man is perhaps the most complex, weaving (haha) various facets of the character and his alter-ego in the opening titles and then taking those ideas and using them intelligently throughout the scores. Having said that, I find Horner's the most memorable being one of those melodies that randomly pops into my head unbidden frequently yet Giacchino's theme, especially when it's not over-orchestrated and presented with a lighter touch, best characterises PP/Spider-Man as a geeky, relatively ordinary kid whose heroism is a little more grounded (metaphorically) than the grand heroics of Superman etc. I've thought about this way too much...