HunterTech

Let's not forget about the ever-developing sound systems and the density of sound mix. More intricate music tends to clash with that kind of aesthetic. 
 
Karol

What happened is that the sensibility of current directors and producers changed a lot. They don't want long-lined melodies, they don't want counterpoint, virtuosic writing or a sophisticated approach. They prefer something much simpler and devoided of any musical complexity. Why? Because the music should never get in the way of their vision, nor the composer is someone allowed to impose his or her own vision to the film. Music is just one color of the filmmaker's palette and he or she wants to have total control over it. Now, of course you can be both simple and musically creative while serving the picture, but the issue is that, more often than not, this approach doesn't produce something interesting enough as music. I don't judge Giacchino here (I listened to this new piece only once without my full attention, so I'll avoid any quick judgement), but I fear that even big name composers like him today are somewhat cornered by producers and directors to write pieces along these lines, i.e. all atmosphere without a defined melodic or thematic personality. The music does create a halo around the images, but it never takes full control (despite being often mixed at impossibly loud volume). I read somwehere that Giacchino wrote this piece before filming began so I guess that he sketched some basic ideas to get the ball rolling, then the filmmakers fell in love with the demo and decided it had to be the theme and that's what he had to work with (that's my assumption, of course). I mean, these processes are always hard to fathom from the outside. I know of top composers submitting demos to producers and then being asked to strip down the composition to the point that sometimes what remains at the end is just the bass line. The review process can be really frustrating for the composer.
 
Also, the majority of the audience of today is not at all welcoming a film score with a clear musical voice (in the sense of the traditional orchestral vernacular) because a lot of people feels like it's dated and taking too much attention to itself, as a sophisticated harmonic language for example is now seen as something really from the past. You have to read the comments on YouTube under music videos or tracks to truly realize how today's audience thinks and feels about music that is just a notch more sophisticated than the average pop piece (a guy on YT labeled one of Adele's songs from the latest album as "something out of an old Disney movie" just because the piece uses jazzy chords and a more spiced-up harmonic vocabulary). That's the world we live in today.
 
Sorry for the long post.

These complaints about Gia's themes for Bats and Spidey not being particularly character descriptive are interesting to me, because well..... would you say Elfman's Spider-Man theme really embodies the character that well? Completely isolated from the rest of the themes and the general feel (hell, just consider only the main melody), is there really anything about it that feels particularly insect like, jovial, or down to earth? That's probably just my knowledge of the character really coloring it, but I don't think it's quite as specific as Williams Superman or even his own Batman. It's almost a riff on the latter in a way.
 
In comparison, Gia's Spidey wonderfully captures the "friendly neighborhood" vibe the character is supposed to stand for initially. I guess the issue is that after Homecoming, that aspect essentially feels abandoned, given they're much more concerned with the regular theatrics that a superhero score has, since FFH and NWH are much bigger in scale. As such, it ends up making less of an impact because in effect it has turned into a standard superhero fanfare with what the subsequent scores ask of it.
 
I singled out Danny's Spider-Man in particular because I think it only ends up embodying the character once you factor in everything else from the score, since it's ultimately the whole package that informs whether it really suits the material or is used meaningfully. It's effectively a long winded way of saying "hey maybe we should properly judge once we get the whole picture."

I mean, I'll step in to disagree about Elfman's Spidey theme not being perfect because that Main Title had everything we needed: a sense of mystery, wonder, creeping, rising, skittering strings, web-slinging, responsibility, solemnity. Mostly Spider-man with a touch of Peter Parker (being born out of the responsibility theme rather than birthing the responsibility theme itself, as it does more regularly in the score proper).
 
There's a wealth of thematic material being demonstrated in 3:30 minutes. That one cue is almost a micro-score within itself. If that were the only musical depiction of Spider-man we had, those 3:30, we'd have quite a lot to pick apart and I think that says a lot about what Elfman does.
 
 
I simply can't avoid an opportunity to lift up the Elfman Spider-man theme which doesn't get enough love imo.
 
 

Once again, I more blame the studio in this instance, given how WB seems to have a tighter grip on their big, big tentpole releases. Odd how a lot of the other recent DC movies are able to experiment with the sound palette just a bit more, yet this and Matrix 4 are stuck having to adhere to the modern Hollywood score format with some past references sprinkled in.
 
That being said: it is interesting how Gia and even Holkenborg have paid lip service to Elfman in their work for the character. I guess post the JL debacle, DC likely wanted to merge the sounds more than outright go for a very specific take. For me, the Batman material for ZSJL ended up being a surprising highlight from that score, so I have a hard time knowing what to anticipate with the new film.
 
I quite like the general feel of the released track, yet it still is too darn reliant on that "build up that probably will be the actual theme" for me to really judge. It has made me more curious though.
 
(Still don't get the Imperial March comparisons)

Or maybe that person has to put other priorities first like  bills and putting food on the table for his kids  etc.  And now is more established and doesn’t have to spend as much on his kids etc . Yea some people don’t have money to burn! 

People here might be surprised how many really passionate film score enthusiasts have no idea the specialty labels exist.  These labels spend almost nothing on marketing, which is fine, I know this isn't a cash-cow business and their budgets are better spent on the products, but it does mean that it's very hard to reach people that don't already know of their existence.  I listened to and knew of only John Williams' major label releases for years and years before very randomly discovering the existence of JWFan and only then did I learn about these limited physical only special editions that actually have all the music.
 
So what I'm saying is, not only are people newly becoming fans of scores every day, but even long-time fans are newly discovering releases like these all the time.

Yeah, a long time when it was out of stock. Or they might have learned about it later.

Definitely Christopher Young's score for Spider-Man 3. It is by far the most dynamic score of the Spidey flicks with pieces of all sorts. Some are epic, others romantic, jazzy, heartbreaking, menacing, inspirational, and redemptive. Not only that but I feel that he took Danny Elfman's score for the first two Spidey flicks and elevated it while simultaneously adding his own unique themes including the Black Suit Suite (arguably just as iconic as Spidey's main themes), Venom's theme, Sandman's theme, and of course New Goblin's theme. One of the worst parts of Spider-Man 3 is how they rejected Young's majestic theme for Peter and MJ and instead recycled Elfman's theme for the two from the previous two films despite it not fitting the tone of the third film in the slightest. 
 
https://youtu.be/iBA6kt3ooUU?t=65
 
Overall:
1. Spider-Man 3 - Young
2. Spider-Man 2 - Elfman/Young
3. TASM - Horner
4. Spider-Man - Elfman
5. Far From Home - Giacchino
6. Homecoming - Giacchino
7. TASM 2- Zimmer (Usually a big fan of Zimmer's work, but his score for TASM2 was just such an earsore. Apart from Electro's theme, this score just gave me a headache)
 
Too early for NWH, but its somewhere in the top 4

Wow, that's almost my own list, though I haven't given Paesano a proper listen, and would probably bump up TASM1 to second place.
 
Spider-Man 3 remains my personal favorite score period, so it's an easy pick for me.
 
The more interesting question is which of the two Elfman's I like more, since they have their different strengths. SM1 has the stronger identity and standout cues, but SM2 really hits it with the emotional core. They represent what makes Elfman a generally appealing composer to me.
 
The rest remain positive, if a bit more mixed. Horner I love, but don't listen to often unfortunately. Giacchino I really want to like more, but ultimately ends up being relatively decent for me. Zimmer is a wonderful guilty pleasure, but I find myself incapable of putting him particularly high. Pemberton I'd need to hear again, but I honestly wasn't too impressed with his entry.

I'm not that familiar with much of the Bond sound, so these might more be vague resemblances. But I always thought these two a-ha tracks could've suited the franchise very well. Hell, given the former was made around the time of The Living Daylights, it's possible it was either submitted or inspired by their time doing the film's main song.
 
 
 

It's everything. The themes are fantastic and incredibly well utilized. The action material is top notch, having the fluidity and propulsion that more recent scores wish they had. It's emotional in a way that is just right and not overwrought. It's so incredibly well paced and with little filler that it's partially ruined the medium for me. All in all: just the perfect score for my tastes.

You could maybe blame this on nostalgia a bit, but given how other scores from the period don't hold up as much for me (plus the fact I'd only be familiar with much of it fairly recently), I feel it's just that good. A great shame there is no official release and the bootleg situation is so messy (though not if you know where to look ;)), since there is a lot one can appreciate better on its own terms.
 
Just for funsies (mostly because @Stark asked), I did a large thematic breakdown for just this specific score:
 
 

Remember in some cases the labels must reissue that original program as part of the deal, if I'm not mistaken.
 
Regardless, you don't have to be a fanatical collector of cues to appreciate the different variations - for some of us a slight alternate may be our favorite version of a cue, for some of us we might appreciate the the peek into the creative process.  I'm sorry this release isn't for you, but many of us will enjoy what they are presenting here.

I'm getting the impression they would have to go through another batch before they can properly switch out the booklets, since I was able to get it by requesting it for my next order (The River).
 
I didn't fully remember the post, because I was pretty surprised by how different the main font ended up being. Certainly matches the previous releases better, which makes it all the more unfortunate there isn't a clean digital copy.
 

 

 
Here are the scans I made, which I'm sure someone here can do something with:

 

 

yeah? Point me to ONE website where I can LEGALLY buy every single movie and CD ever released. There.

Piracy is bad, but I have no sympathy for the ridiculously large companies complaining about their losses due to piracy. Disney, Microsoft, and the East India Trading Company can all afford to eat a little of their own shit from time to time. 

When we see idols we rever being harshly criticized, it's kind of natural for some to step up as defense lawyers. I have yet to see WSS, but I guess call it "a gigantic waste of time and effort" is way beyond the point of a normal like/dislike debate. I firmly believe Cinema is one of the great human achievements of the 20th century (I know it was technically invented in the 19th, but the artform essentially was born in the 20th), but if we extremize this line of thought about 'usefulness' or 'meaningfulness' I can definitely say that any movie in the world can be see as a gigantic and ultimately useless venture, because no movie is necessary for anything essential in our lives. We get attached to them of course and they can reach even level of art, but that's rarer than most people truly convince themselves of. For the most part, movies exist just to entertain people and give them something to spend time with. That's it. Yes, there are much more detrimental hobbies and activities that are much more useless than watching movies of course. The only thing we should regret about a movie we didn't like is that we'll never get back that time we spent watching it instead of doing something else.
 
As Hitchcock said to Truffaut, "People think that movies are 'tranches de vie' (i.e. pieces of life), but I prefer to call my own 'tranches de gateau' (i.e. pieces of cake). Let's enjoy our cakes.

As with Zimmer: if it all sounds like a fully unified vision, then is there really any point in figuring out who did what precisely? Especially in this particular instance, when Sener didn't actually work on the previous Ice Age movies! If anything, you could almost view this as a William Ross/Alexander Courage type of situation, where they mainly concerned themselves with adapting the material for the next film in the franchise.
 
I'm just happy we're returning to the well of 2-4 with this new film, since as much as I respect Debney for trying to bridge the gap between Newman and Powell in 5, the results were just too dull unfortunately.
 
 
You can rest easy, because those are all solo Powell! A lot of his bigger set piece cues tend to be, curiously enough.

I don't quite understand what the issue is here -
 
As TheUlyssesian said this was a vanity project for Spielberg.  Something he did for himself.  If that's the case what's the problem?  Everyone is getting paid, it's not going to kill Disney's bottom line, and maybe they'll get a few awards out of it.  What's the problem if Spielberg wanted to make it simply because he wanted to make it?  Do we forget that musicals have revivals all the time on Broadway and elsewhere?  Would you have the same criticism for the umpteenth revival of WSS or Les Misersables on Broadway?  Who asked for a new revival of The Music Man to be staged with stunt casting in place like Hugh Jackman (who is probably doing a great job).  
 
There's no reason to complain about these things, they exist and people will find something to enjoy about them.  Sometimes you'll get lucky and find a large audience, sometimes it'll be a small one.  I can tell you as a music teacher I LOVED this interpretation of West Side Story and it has received near universal praise and good word of mouth within our music education communities.  Even if it was ONLY us that derived pleasure from this film I would say it was worth it.

I'm conflicted about it because my thread-starting post was literally
 
 
And yet the film itself won me over, it's a strong effort so I'm sad to see it go down like this. But he'll be fine. It'd probably take a string of West Side Storys for the rest of his life to undo his track record. 
 
I'm more sad for the young cast who deserved a hit movie. It'd be nice to see DeBose, Faist, and Alvarez still get some opportunities off this. I guess DeBose could still end up with this year's Oscar. And even though I don't care about Disney remakes, I hope Snow White is a hit for Zegler's sake. Two high-profile, big-budget Disney flops wouldn't be a great look for her. 

I'm getting the impression they would have to go through another batch before they can properly switch out the booklets, since I was able to get it by requesting it for my next order (The River).
 
I didn't fully remember the post, because I was pretty surprised by how different the main font ended up being. Certainly matches the previous releases better, which makes it all the more unfortunate there isn't a clean digital copy.
 

 

 
Here are the scans I made, which I'm sure someone here can do something with:

 

 

So it turns out there's about 104 minutes of music in the final cut (not counting the Dr Strange teaser)
about 8 minutes of source music about 64 minutes of cues that are on the OST about 32 minutes of unreleased cues  
This means while watching the film, a whole third of the score you'll hear, is unreleased!
 
It goes like this:
Intro To Fake News (1:07) World's Worst Friendly Neighbor (0:36) I Zimbra (Talking Heads) (1:27) Native New Yorker (Odyssey) (0:09) Damage Control (0:53) UNRELEASED CUE #1 (0:43) UNRELEASED CUE #2 (0:33) Being A Spider Bites (0:46) Scraper (Liquid Liquid) (1:18) UNRELEASED CUE #3 (0:19) UNRELEASED CUE #4 (0:52) Gone In A Flash (1:46) UNRELEASED CUE #5 (0:19) All Spell Breaks Loose (3:27) UNRELEASED CUE #6 (0:34) Concerto for 2 Violins in G major, RV 516 (Vivaldi) (0:23) UNRELEASED CUE #7 (1:11) Otto Trouble (3:43) UNRELEASED CUE #8 (1:02) UNRELEASED CUE #9 (0:26) The Undercroft (0:28) Ghost Fighter In The Sky (0:53) UNRELEASED CUE #10 (1:04) Beach Blanket Bro Down (1:18) Strange Bedfellows (1:26) UNRELEASED CUE #11 (0:39) UNRELEASED CUE #12 (0:19) UNRELEASED CUE #13 (1:25) Unidentified Daily Bugle source (could be Giacchino) (0:13) UNRELEASED CUE #14 (3:17) Sling vs Bling & Deck The Halls (4:17) UNRELEASED CUE #15 (1:28) UNRELEASED CUE #16 (0:44) Octo Gone (3:19) UNRELEASED CUE #17 (0:29) UNRELEASED CUE #18 (2:27) No Good Deed (4:34) Exit Through The Lobby (4:08) UNRELEASED CUE #19 (0:39) UNRELEASED CUE #20 (0:38) UNRELEASED CUE #21 (0:59) Doom With A View (2:00) UNRELEASED CUE #22 (2:57) UNRELEASED CUE #23 (1:24) Spider Baiting (1:26) UNRELEASED CUE #24 (2:46) Liberty Parlance (1:25) Monster Smash (1:13) UNRELEASED CUE #25 (0:18) Arc Reactor (2:40) Shield of Pain (4:25) Goblin His Inner Demons (3:28) Forget Me Knots (6:45) UNRELEASED CUE #26 (0:44) UNRELEASED CUE #27 (2:04) UNRELEASED CUE #28 (1:35) Peter Parker Picked A Perilously Precarious Profession (1:29) The Magic Number (De La Soul) (2:33) Bailando Cumbia by Danny Osuna (1:39) Arachnoverture (7:03)  
There really is a lot of really good stuff in those 32 unreleased minutes!
 
 
The interesting part is that a lot of the music on the OST is edited down for the final cut, like the film continued to be tightened and shortened after the score was recorded.  Here's a list of the 25 cues on the OST with the film length listed after their OST length
 
01 Intro to Fake News (1:11) -> 1:07 02 World's Worst Friendly Neighbor (0:51) -> 0:36 03 Damage Control (2:17) -> 0:53 04 Being A Spider Bites (1:05) -> 0:46 05 Gone In A Flash (1:52) -> 1:46 06 All Spell Breaks Loose (3:25) -> 3:27 07 Otto Trouble (4:19) -> 3:43 23B  "The Undercroft" (0:35) -> 0:28 08A Ghost Fighter In The Sky (1:11) -> 0:53 08B Beach Blanket Bro Down (1:36) -> 1:18 09 Strange Bedfellows (1:45) -> 1:26 10 Sling vs Bling (5:00) -> 4:47 11 Octo Gone (3:34) -> 3:19 12 No Good Deed (5:00) -> 4:34 13 Exit Through The Lobby (4:15) -> 4:08 14 A Doom With A View (2:00) -> 2:00 15 Spider Baiting (1:35) -> 1:26 16 Liberty Parlance (1:28) -> 1:25 17 Monster Smash (1:21) -> 1:13 18 Arc Reactor (2:57) -> 2:40 19 Shield of Pain (4:51) -> 4:25 20 Goblin His Inner Demons (3:54) -> 3:28 21 Forget Me Knots (6:49) -> 6:45 22 Peter Parker Picked A Perilously Precarious Profession (1:31) -> 1:29 23A Arachnoverture (9:31) -> 7:03  
The drastic difference in Damage Control tells me he severely cut down the 1st act again.  And every action scene until the finale ones got shortened after scoring.
 
So if the fact that the 74 minute's worth of cues that made the OST got edited down to 64 minutes in the final cut, the 32 minutes of unreleased cues in the final cut could be edited down from maybe 37 minutes worth or more, plus who knows how much completely unused cues there are, and/or alternates that were recorded

It's everything. The themes are fantastic and incredibly well utilized. The action material is top notch, having the fluidity and propulsion that more recent scores wish they had. It's emotional in a way that is just right and not overwrought. It's so incredibly well paced and with little filler that it's partially ruined the medium for me. All in all: just the perfect score for my tastes.

You could maybe blame this on nostalgia a bit, but given how other scores from the period don't hold up as much for me (plus the fact I'd only be familiar with much of it fairly recently), I feel it's just that good. A great shame there is no official release and the bootleg situation is so messy (though not if you know where to look ;)), since there is a lot one can appreciate better on its own terms.
 
Just for funsies (mostly because @Stark asked), I did a large thematic breakdown for just this specific score:
 
 

It's everything. The themes are fantastic and incredibly well utilized. The action material is top notch, having the fluidity and propulsion that more recent scores wish they had. It's emotional in a way that is just right and not overwrought. It's so incredibly well paced and with little filler that it's partially ruined the medium for me. All in all: just the perfect score for my tastes.

You could maybe blame this on nostalgia a bit, but given how other scores from the period don't hold up as much for me (plus the fact I'd only be familiar with much of it fairly recently), I feel it's just that good. A great shame there is no official release and the bootleg situation is so messy (though not if you know where to look ;)), since there is a lot one can appreciate better on its own terms.
 
Just for funsies (mostly because @Stark asked), I did a large thematic breakdown for just this specific score:
 
 

I've seen a lot of people wishing that the old themes had been used more and then others saying that they were used quite frequently because the themes appeared in multiple moments, are present in cues X,Y,Z etc. I think what most people who wished for more usage of the old themes are saying is that they wish the themes had been more present and more involved in the musical fabric of the film. People of course may have different interpretations of how that is achieved.
 
For me at least, that means that, for one, themes aren't just reprised briefly and verbatim and then discarded with for the rest of the cue. Yes, it's nice that Horner's theme is in there. It's neat that Elfman's Spidey and Responsibility themes are used. But if you quote them more or less directly in these very isolated ways, there's not much impact to really be had from them. Doc Ock's theme is in there, Goblin's theme is in there, but usually in these very brief statements that never fully state the theme and that never really feel like their power is fully-harnessed (the bridge fight with Ock being a bit of an exception IMO). It feels very surface-level. They're in there, they exist within the music of the film, but they don't really feel like they're woven into the score. And if you're gonna go to the trouble of having them back, why use them hardly at all?
 
That's not to say there aren't cool variations of old themes, sure. But, I think something that goes a long ways is to have those themes actually interact with one another, not just exist in these standalone snippets. Young did this superbly in the climactic end fight of Spider-Man 3, even despite quite a few in-film edits that hack at the score. You have Sandman's theme building and then falling to make way for Spidey's theme before being interrupted by Venom's theme which transitions back to Sandman's theme into New Goblin's theme, etc. Themes play individually, sometimes together, but always in powerful and memorable ways that ebb and flow with a musical momentum that is mirrored on-screen, in addition to appearing based on who currently has the upper hand. The musical themes are an active part of the film and are working supplemental to the visuals to heighten the emotional response. They do not just appear briefly for a few seconds for mostly inconsequential impact. Some have argued that the final fight in NWH is edited in such a way that to do something similar musically for the climax would have been very messy, and I really don't think that's the case. The film if anything presents itself in a way to make such an approach easier, with villains kinda awkwardly being introduced one-by-one and never once being featured all at together. And, honestly, how great would it have been to have had all 3 Spidey themes weaving (webbing?) in and out of one another during the final fight? It's not impossible, it just takes effort and is admittedly harder. It's made all the more upsetting when Giacchino actually does this really well earlier in the film during the Strange/Spidey altercation. 
 
None of this is meant to come across as entitlement. It's Giacchino's score, he can do what he wants. He doesn't owe us anything. I think his heart was ultimately in the right place. He didn't have to bring back any of these themes, but it was cool he did and I'm happy for it. I'm more just trying to explain I think why people are disappointed with the usage of older themes from my own perspective.
 
 
 
I also agree with the idea that, as this is Holland's film, his theme should, whether you like it or not, be front and center. But when you choose to beat us over the head with it in almost every major moment of potentially emotional consequence in the final act...
...It starts to lose its effectiveness. It becomes a Force theme/Last Jedi situation. You hear it so much that it doesn't really mean anything. And ideally a good theme allows you to forge this emotional connection to what it is the theme is representing, a connection that becomes undermined when it starts to be used for things the theme isn't meant to really represent on-screen.