HunterTech

I don't think this is remotely the main reason why they've been successful. While, I do agree that Marvel has overstepped the line when it comes to squashing voices, I do think that to make a cinematic universe work you need a set of people keeping things consistent for the most part and to make it all feel like it comes from the same Universe. The "committee" that you mention. We've seen what happens when even just a trilogy of films doesn't have the story maintained and planned out: the Star Wars Sequels. You can't have a coherent and consistent Universe if Director's decide they want to ignore what happened in a previous film. Not to say the MCU is perfect in that respect either, but they've attempted something never really done before and now everyone wants to do it. Which brings me to...
 
I think the main reason that the DCU has gone wrong (at least for me) is disregarding the huge amount of character build-up that the MCU did when they started.
Before we ever got to The Avengers in 2012 we had Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, and Captain America: The First Avenger. We had two movies with Iron Man, and one each with Thor, Captain America, and...kind of Hulk, but it doesn't really count at this point. That's a solid amount of time to get to know these characters and what they're all about before we got to the big team up film. Then we got another 4 films before the next team up film, and I think you get the idea at this point.
 
The problem is that DC was essentially playing catchup with Marvel first and building their world and characters second or even third priority. For me at least, the style and tone was not necessarily what I have an issue with when it comes to the DC films. The primary issue is the writing and lack of development for the characters. They somehow have pride for these being new interpretations of the characters and to quote an actual review at the time "not your grandfather’s Superman", but also bank on you connecting to their poorly fleshed out characters on pure recognition. You should be sad that Superman is dead because it's Superman. Lois and Clark have to be together because it's Lois and Clark. Etc. You can't boast this being uncharted territory and "not your grandfather’s Superman" while also relying on those past incarnations for the emotional connection.
 
I can go into it deeper if you want, but I figured this was long enough as it is. DC's films have had flat out silly writing at times (which clashes with the pretentious, dark, and real tone they have), convoluted plots, devoid of real character arcs or development, and trying too hard to bank on competing with the relevant Marvel film that year, especially in the case of BvS and Civil War. Hell, Batman V Superman feels like they had scripts for a Batman movie, Man of Steel 2, and a Justice League movie and the writers all smacked into each other in the hallway with the resulting pile of pages becoming the final film. BvS is also the only film that I think strays into the "too dark and depressing" territory, but that's still not really the main issue with it. It's an absolute low for the series for sure regardless.
 
Wonder Woman and Shazam were vast improvements, not because of the tone shift, but because they told simpler stories and created more in-depth characters, spending time on their stories and who they were first. I feel like I understand both of them more than I do Superman or Batman. Suicide Squad is a whole other mess, but with similar issues as the other Snyder films.
 
We've all been over Justice League in this thread. Snyder's Cut to me shows that his style was never my issue. He can make a film with a simpler story, character arcs, and also a bit of hope and victory amongst the darkness.
 
Idk that's my rambling two cents.

This (though it'd have been 5 films prior to theatrical JL). As much as I do love those Superman scores, there's a great amount of potential within the material from MoS, as much as I don't love that score. It's also why I didn't mind Elfman's Bat theme being present comparatively, given I wasn't 100% sold on the BvS material, so doing a bit more with that old soundscape was fine by me (though Holkenborg's eventual JL work was the better way of going about the character).
 
 
This is actually a case where I prefer the complete presentation (preferably cleaned up a bit, wink wink ;)). It solved a lot of the issues I had with the OST, and even provided a better sense of what Zimmer was going for with the whole score. I still have issues with some of it (most of the love stuff continues to leave me cold, and the temp tracking (as refreshingly honest as it is) will forever bug me (besides the Pompeii incorporation)), but I like it now to where I actually feel it's his best superhero effort (probably still prefer Dark Phoenix and TASM2 personally). The Sketches album was a bit underwhelming, but that might help in swaying you with its fun atmosphere. So yeah, WW84 remains the best DCEU score currently.
 

You've described (more kindly) why a lot of modern scores tend to do nothing for me. There's plenty of good ideas I find in various RCP/other composer's projects, but the whole piece ends up feeling disjointed and a bit dull. Often as a result of them prioritizing hitting every individual on screen beat instead of letting things breathe and build (some complete scores, for instance, being made of a bunch of short cues instead of mostly fully fledged pieces). Most of the Transformers scores are prime examples for me, as I love a lot of themes and action beats in those, but the actual meat of it is incredibly nothing. I actually prefer it if the score is more about mood and general feel instead of pretending to be thematic, as it at least builds towards making that work for the listener. It's likely why I actually clicked with ZSJL on the first listen, because it feeling so earnestly "trashy" made it easy to embrace the noisy chaos that even some Snyder fans are finding hard to swallow. It's odd how that works. I blame my EDM background :P.

Not to throw a third video in a row on the page, but the best action theme (to me) is probably At the Speed of Force. Though I generally do like the music used for Barry's scenes. Honestly Aquaman got off the worst, since I dont recognize any unique sound for him at all.

IMO, WW84 is much better score than JL (both versions). Much better melodies and themes. It has the perfect combo of orchestral and synth music, action and romance, and was able to coherently link those elements together.
 
With that said, Junkie's Justice League is much better than Batman v Superman. The main theme alone is much better than that score. Also, JL has some genuine character scoring. The Cyborg theme is beautifully representation of a tortured, shadowed man. The Darkseid theme is melodramatically epic and even though I am don't like the Batman theme much, it propulsive and energetic. The only thing good about BvS is the introduction of the WW theme and "A Beautiful Lie," a single glimmer of beauty. I am disappointed that he didn't use RGW's Aquaman theme though. 
 
As for Man of Steel...I think Junkie's Justice League is probably better too. But I still like "Flight" and "What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World" better than anything in JL.
 
Lastly, compared to Elfman's work, it is exactly what I predicted. Elfman's JL is everything right and wrong with Marvel scores. They are very technically proficient scores, with some complex orchestration, even quality scoring throughout. But they lack any sort of memorability. I can listen to Elfman's JL twice and not remember anything about it. Junkie's JL is everything right and wrong with DC scores. Extreme highs and lows. The highlights are epic, dramatic, and worthy of attention. DC scores have some of the best, memorable cues/themes in the genre. However, outside of those highlights, the scores lack the finesse of Marvel scores, mostly deconstructed to simiple electronics or sound design. Overall, Elfman's work has better composition and Junkie's work is more memorable.  

THIEF, BUTTERFLY, MONSIGNOR, METROPOLIS (Moroder version), THIEF OF HEARTRS (which is Faltermeyer, not Moroder as the list suggests), ROCKY IV, REVOLUTION, KING SOLOMON'S MINES -- great scores, all of them. Some even bonafide classics. Silly 80s people not recognizing greatness when it stared them in the face!

Same here. I enjoy listening to both extremes of this - from the lushest orchestral approach, to the stuff you hear in trailers.
 
It's just like in a non-soundtrack sense, I might one evening be listening to some nice gentle Lana Del Rey, and the next some properly upbeat Imagine Dragons, and some medieval/shakespearean 'mood' music the next.
 
I suspect that the backlash against scores like this is that those who wish all scores would be orchestral feel cheated out of a four-hour John Williams opus, when Holkenborg comes up with this.
 
The one thing that does aggravate though, is when scores of this style are usually the ones that receive expanded/complete releases right off the bat - it would be nice if a wider range and style of score were available in complete form.

This is exactly how I feel. Bit of both worlds. I do love the old big orchestral scores and the newer ones from composers like Giacchino.
But I also love some of the newer 'less' orchestral score from Zimmer, Jackman & Holkenborg.
 
But my preference will always go to the more orchestral theme based scores. And I think Holkenborg did a good job on this score. Every hero has their own theme, as well as the team and the villains.
Sure there are parts I don't like and I don't think it's his best, and it's not the heighest form of film music but I think it's enjoyable for what it is

Absolutely this.
 
I'm a weird middle ground because I like bits about both worlds. I like scores like National Treasure or some of the "epic" trailer music for the 2000s for one reason, but also like many of the more commonly celebrated scores around here for other reasons. I don't really have a solid preference. It depends on the film. It probably is more classic orchestral as that tends to be what speaks to me and interests me most, but I'm not going to lie and say that there aren't tracks or even full scores I like that are not that.
 
There are things here in Junkie's Justice League score I like. I'm still working on my list with links to share and all that, so I'll try to have that later on. However, there are also things I don't like. 
 
While I do somewhat see the point gkgyver was making where it feels like we shouldn't lower our standards or stuff like this will take over, but I think that's almost an inevitability. Music goes through phases of change and resurgence. I also think it's silly to have to either love or hate it entirely. I like parts of it, I don't like other parts. Granted if you don't like a single bit of it, then sure, feel free to hate it.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hate most of the Man of Steel score...but I get why people might like it. I don't understand it and I think there's more to like in this score, but I do get that some people like it. 
 
 
Well, it's tough to say. I imagine so, but also Song to the Siren, which opens up the Album, I know for sure appears much later in the film. The score could be I suppose since it's sandwiched between the songs, but the track titles aren't clear. Plus there's also still potential that cues from MoS or BvS were indeed tracked in.
 
I also don't think most here care enough to come up with the chronological list. I might, but it certainly won't anytime soon.

Nah, it is all opinions.  Plenty of people like this scoring style very much.
 
The majority of people here prefer classic orchestral scores, of course, but we're a minority.  The majority of people on planet earth prefer this stuff these days
 
It is what it is

I will also concede that the start takes a bit to get going. It wasn't until a couple of tracks in that I felt it got a good groove going.
 
Given my background in EDM type music prior to listening to scores, the loudness of the tracks aren't really a problem (though in this case, I was at the park for the first couple of cues, and had ReplayGain enabled the whole listen, so perhaps that softened it considerably). I just care if it actually manages to be tuneful, to which I got from at least 20 or so tracks. A heck of a lot more than I'd have expected, so for that I'm grateful.

As I said elsewhere, the start is rough.
But it got enjoyable for me halfway in, (and I am pretty sure I am not insane)
The fact that I have to add 'halfway' though I understand is a problem with the OST presentation.

Which one?

Tom wrote a good chunk of the Zod/Kryptonian and action material for MoS, so I'm not surprised that he got solo credit on that particular track.

As for the rest of the score, I'm actually surprised by how generally decent I found much of it to be. There were very little points where I felt it dragged, and there were a good amount of tracks that I can say I legitimately enjoyed. It's absolutely junk food music, which is only compounded by the amount of rock and electronic elements. But it not being so dreary and monotonous generally made it so that it was actually fun to listen to, compared to MoS and BvS.

It's definitely got its issues though. For as much as I wasn't bored with it, there's probably a good chunk you could remove from it without missing anything substantial. Also, thematically, while you could see this as being better than Elfman's effort on that front from a superficial sense, this has a similar issue of not being particularly great in always distinguishing the individual motifs. Particularly with the villains, which might as well be nonexistent from the initial listen. Can't say I picked up anything on the Aquaman front as well, but that could change when I view the film. And while I do feel this is a more approachable score than MoS/BvS, I do think those had the better ideas. Not to say the ZSJL ones are bad, but they definitely pale motif wise, and find myself wondering if the Snyderverse is ever gonna get a score that meld both compelling ideas and solid execution.

As for if it's better than Elfman's JL: I think they're ultimately incomparable. They both aim for very different things, and I'd say that each succeeded at them. I will say that there is no track on ZSJL that quite hits me on an emotional level like "Home" does from the theatrical cut, but that's likely because it's exactly the kind of intimate DE cue I'd enjoy from other works of his. I know Holkenborg less than I do Danny, but the one conclusion I can make here is that this is definitely my favorite JXL thing currently, which I feel says a lot.

So yeah, it's pretty alright. Am a bit surprised by how mixed the reception has been in even RCP dominated circles. I figured with what I mentioned that it'd make for a good crowd pleaser, but with the behemoth that is this whole project, I suppose some aspects were bound to underwhelm. Which is a shame, as I find it more entertaining than its predecessors (though I certainly like WW84 the most out of the DCEU lot that I heard).

I finnaly get through the whole Holkenborg JL... It's quite nice nothing fancy but some good Holkenborg's stuffs. It reminds me a lot of Alita specially on what appears to be the main theme.
About the all Everest thing, I'll pass unless if he meant a model in an exposition
Anyway it worth at least one listening

I mean, this version finally being released and getting relatively solid feedback feels plenty enough like WB basically admitting they were wrong

That's the thing that I always found interesting about the DCEU Bats material. In how much they feel very inspired by previous incarnations. I keep hearing tidbits of Goldenthal in both the BvS and ZSJL themes. Probably is the better way of honoring prior history while also doing your own thing.

Having listened to the last set of tracks (since I assume they're theme suites), I am a bit surprised by how much I liked them. Particularly with the Batman tracks, given the amount of fun energy and bits of interesting sound design that they have. It manages to tickle my electronic bone just enough. The WW rendition is fairly solid too, and the Flash piece seems like a good summation of the score.

That being said, with this being 3+ hours of overall material, I'm not going to be surprised if I view this exactly the same way that I do MoS/BvS. Where I like the general ideas, but the whole piece ends up feeling tired and lacking much dimension. It's frustrating how much I can hear good scores coming from these motifs, yet they get paired with largely uninspired affair. At the very least, it'll probably be good exercise and wake up music.

Now that the score is actually out, I combed through the Spotify credits, and can confirm that indeed these are all legit reprises of MoS/BvS material.
 
In the order of how it's listed in the post above (as in it should correspond with each individual credit):
[MoS material]
The Center Will Not Hold, Twenty Centuries of Stony Sleep
A Splinter from the Thorn That Pricked You
I Teach You, the Overman
Underworld
Superman Rising, Pt. 1 / A Book of Hours
Ungrund
The House of Belonging
Earthling
Superman Rising, Pt. 2 / Immovable
 
[BvS Wishlist / The Warden]
Your Own House Turned to Ashes
 
[BvS Main Title Pt. I]
All of You Undisturbed Cities
 
[BvS The Girl]
Wonder Woman Defending / And What Rough Beast
Wonder Woman, a Call to Stand / A World Awakened

Pretty much. The rendition of The Long Goodbye in The Last Jedi is credited, so that's like the only instance of prior Williams material needing to be credited in a SW film. Though only the composers are credited, with no studio or label attached, so perhaps the rule is that any used pre-existing material that isn't from the studio and/or the composer only needs like a general composition credit (i.e. like if someone was humming the track in-film instead of a needle drop).

Even then, there's odd cases like Elfman's Batman theme getting a credit in JL in spite of his involvement with the score. So like with everything else, it's real inconsistent.
 
 
 
Tom Holkenborg worked on both MoS and BvS, so remixing stems pulled from those projects would very much be in his wheelhouse. Given how much he's talked about retaining the Superman and WW themes though, I'm fairly positive every instance of at least those tracks would be fresh. Especially if he had worked on the score back in the movie's original production, so it wouldn't surprise me if he's referred back to some of the work done there in spite of supposedly starting fresh. Plus, with how synthy stuff like GvK is sounding, I'm not sure how much live instrumentation was actually done here.

There is the fact that WW's theme is credited in exactly the same fashion in the theatrical JL, and that's a new rendition, but then the tracked MoS cue is also credited in the same manner. So at this rate, we might as well wait for the film.

Given some people were quick to jump to some of the key new sequences of the film when the mishap occurred, I'm not surprised the credits were skimmed through as well.

The lack of "Clark Kent, Reporter" (What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving The World?) is making me concerned that specific theme isn't gonna show up, unless it's such a radical reinterpretation that it doesn't sound like its MoS counterpart.

The presence of Beautiful Lie does surprise me, given they sort of made it sound like Bats was going a completely new direction sound wise. Guess MARTHA is gonna factor into this somewhere.

Do wonder what the Lex material will be used for, besides in relation to all the stuff he spouted at the end of BvS.

A rambling low noise when i first heard it, i now at least partly appreciate it as electronic concept album with some nice ideas along the way.

This score is an absolute mess production wise. While it can be easy to assume that Richter got Balfed and apply the usual spiel about that here, it's much more complicated than that.

Richter was the first hired composer, and presumably scored the original cut of the movie on his lonesome. However, once it was decided that the film needed some retooling in key areas, Balfe was brought on to do his usual thing. And yet, somewhere in the midst of that, two other composers were brought in to basically do the same job. Robert Charles Mann wrote a entire score that basically got 90% rejected, and Nils Frahm very likely composed his own tracks that got utilized in addition to Says being licensed and reworked. Not even Lorne was immune from this, as a good chunk of what he made went unused in favor of key selections of Max's initial efforts.

As such, we have a whole product that comprises the work of four different composers. Every single one having chunks of their work being heavily hacked together to form a somewhat cohesive and anonymous result for the movie. Take the official album for instance. You'll find that 40-60% of what Richter wrote went unused in favor of repeated uses of To The Stars and I Put All That Away. Balfe's section is even more infuriating, as every track is basically randomly selected and only like one or two is actually used.

Balfe's full contributions were leaked the day after the OST released, Mann had to resort to releasing his selection of tracks twice, and we don't know the full extent of what Frahm did outside of two possible cues. I can absolutely understand why the score hasn't been able to really click for some, thanks to how insanely fragmented the whole situation is. It's a further reminder of how bad the state of film scoring has become in Hollywood.

This score is an absolute mess production wise. While it can be easy to assume that Richter got Balfed and apply the usual spiel about that here, it's much more complicated than that.

Richter was the first hired composer, and presumably scored the original cut of the movie on his lonesome. However, once it was decided that the film needed some retooling in key areas, Balfe was brought on to do his usual thing. And yet, somewhere in the midst of that, two other composers were brought in to basically do the same job. Robert Charles Mann wrote a entire score that basically got 90% rejected, and Nils Frahm very likely composed his own tracks that got utilized in addition to Says being licensed and reworked. Not even Lorne was immune from this, as a good chunk of what he made went unused in favor of key selections of Max's initial efforts.

As such, we have a whole product that comprises the work of four different composers. Every single one having chunks of their work being heavily hacked together to form a somewhat cohesive and anonymous result for the movie. Take the official album for instance. You'll find that 40-60% of what Richter wrote went unused in favor of repeated uses of To The Stars and I Put All That Away. Balfe's section is even more infuriating, as every track is basically randomly selected and only like one or two is actually used.

Balfe's full contributions were leaked the day after the OST released, Mann had to resort to releasing his selection of tracks twice, and we don't know the full extent of what Frahm did outside of two possible cues. I can absolutely understand why the score hasn't been able to really click for some, thanks to how insanely fragmented the whole situation is. It's a further reminder of how bad the state of film scoring has become in Hollywood.

This score is an absolute mess production wise. While it can be easy to assume that Richter got Balfed and apply the usual spiel about that here, it's much more complicated than that.

Richter was the first hired composer, and presumably scored the original cut of the movie on his lonesome. However, once it was decided that the film needed some retooling in key areas, Balfe was brought on to do his usual thing. And yet, somewhere in the midst of that, two other composers were brought in to basically do the same job. Robert Charles Mann wrote a entire score that basically got 90% rejected, and Nils Frahm very likely composed his own tracks that got utilized in addition to Says being licensed and reworked. Not even Lorne was immune from this, as a good chunk of what he made went unused in favor of key selections of Max's initial efforts.

As such, we have a whole product that comprises the work of four different composers. Every single one having chunks of their work being heavily hacked together to form a somewhat cohesive and anonymous result for the movie. Take the official album for instance. You'll find that 40-60% of what Richter wrote went unused in favor of repeated uses of To The Stars and I Put All That Away. Balfe's section is even more infuriating, as every track is basically randomly selected and only like one or two is actually used.

Balfe's full contributions were leaked the day after the OST released, Mann had to resort to releasing his selection of tracks twice, and we don't know the full extent of what Frahm did outside of two possible cues. I can absolutely understand why the score hasn't been able to really click for some, thanks to how insanely fragmented the whole situation is. It's a further reminder of how bad the state of film scoring has become in Hollywood.

Batman Begins is one of the few HZ & crew scores that have no proper cue credits within ASCAP. Every listing for the film credits every involved composer on each track. And while the track list from the sheets do list cues that JNH worked on, some pieces aren't indicative of the final versions that Zimmer and whoever else worked on instead for the finished score. Whilst BB was a better meld of the two composers sounds than TDK, I think it's usually fairly obvious when it is James or Hans.

Here's a lengthy post Hybrid Soldier made on the original H-Z site for what he speculates the final credits would've been:
 
 
 
The regular information the old website held is still easily accessible on the main site. It's just that with the way they've decided to pretty much store all the info, it's not easy to get the exact page you want to link to without having to manually comb through the discography/team section yourself. I doubt this link gets you to where I want it to go, for instance (as in the album itself, and not the general composer page).
 
What is missing so far is all the comments that were made on the old site, which admittedly is where the bread and butter of most of the credit discussions stemmed from. Given a lot of the oldest comments from the early years of the site weren't archived the best, I doubt they've been erased for good. But I am imagining there's some serious compatibility issues that's preventing them from being reinstated faster.

Batman Begins is one of the few HZ & crew scores that have no proper cue credits within ASCAP. Every listing for the film credits every involved composer on each track. And while the track list from the sheets do list cues that JNH worked on, some pieces aren't indicative of the final versions that Zimmer and whoever else worked on instead for the finished score. Whilst BB was a better meld of the two composers sounds than TDK, I think it's usually fairly obvious when it is James or Hans.

Here's a lengthy post Hybrid Soldier made on the original H-Z site for what he speculates the final credits would've been:
 
 
 
The regular information the old website held is still easily accessible on the main site. It's just that with the way they've decided to pretty much store all the info, it's not easy to get the exact page you want to link to without having to manually comb through the discography/team section yourself. I doubt this link gets you to where I want it to go, for instance (as in the album itself, and not the general composer page).
 
What is missing so far is all the comments that were made on the old site, which admittedly is where the bread and butter of most of the credit discussions stemmed from. Given a lot of the oldest comments from the early years of the site weren't archived the best, I doubt they've been erased for good. But I am imagining there's some serious compatibility issues that's preventing them from being reinstated faster.

I salute thee, Guy-Man and Thomas