StRuPiE
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Posts posted by StRuPiE
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3 hours ago, Jean-Baptiste Martin said:
@StRuPiE Yes, you are absolutely right about "Lovejoy Chase".
I made a mistake in my April 20th post about this track.
As soon as I get Eric's answer I will share it.
Ok, glad you finally figured it out... So that means you have to rewrite that section of your book ?!? and oh... maybe you need to tell your source his information is not completely accurate
I bet he missed the part where they finally licensed the music for HHU. And now that I think of it, even the cue sheet has it wrong (or we don't have the most recent revised file). Maybe that's the reason why so many are confused. It did correctly mention the source music of Michael Stearn's "The Beacon" though.
Can't wait for Eric's reply. -
That's totally awesome you get these guys to respond to some random geeky questions
But I'm still not convinced, let's see what Eric has to say about it and in the meantime I delved into the subject matter a little more.
You probably know I made that fan edit/mix and been working a long time trying to perfect it, so I've gathered a lot of material over the years and that makes it easier to compare source/score/stems.
I've specifically focussed on the intro of "A Lucky Ticket" from the original film cue and compared it to the "Heaven Help Us" Bootleg Track 5 / "Live Stems" R02-S05 We're Going To America / LaLaLand Score "1-14 Lovejoy Chases Jack and Rose".
One can only conclude that the film matches closest to the HHU and Live Stems tracks, not only from an audio pov but also if you look at the waveform and the edits. That can't be a coincidence. The LLL re-recorded tracks sound completely different as one would expect and the edits don't match up.
For further proof, I've added this zip which includes excerpts from the aformentioned cues for you to compare and a waveform so you can visualize the things I'm trying to explain.Again, I'm not being direspectful to the original musicians or editors just trying to proof that what we hear in the movie is not what is on the LLL Score album, for this particular section of the movie. Interesting enough, the track "Score_Titanic_LaLaLand_Track1-14_Lovejoy_Chases_Jack_And_Rose_excerpt1" is actually used in the movie but later when the actual Lovejoy chase begins (but only for the first part). The second part (as I described in my previous posts) is from the HHU score.
I'd be blown away if I'm totally wrong here and it would be huge that these musicians could replicate almost exactly what was recorded 12 years before. I mean come on, Rigler and Hinnigan are the best but would they be able to pull off a performance from a recording they weren't even involved in?... I guess we'll find out soon.
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J-BM, these guys can be wrong too and I don't mean that disrespectfully. I'm with Bollemanneke on this one. It's clear that the recordings from 1985 were used, remastered/remixed to purpose Cameron's needs. It's the exact same thing if you compare orchestrations, performance and sound quality. Only difference is the dialed out instruments. I don't know if you listened to the "Heaven Help Us" bootleg but if you did you can only agree that tracks 5/10 matches to what is heard in Titanic. I guess it was a last minute change, don't forget that the release was postponed a couple of months so they had more time in post so they could have easily forced that in right before the final cut.
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I'm pretty sure that the 1985 'Heaven Help Us' master tapes were used to create a new mix for "A lucky Ticket" and the second part of the "Lovejoy Chase" (the scenes in the engine room). One can definitely hear it's the same recording but a different mix with some instruments dialed out (most noticable the synth percussion). Interesting enough, the Uilleann pipe solo (when they try to board in a Lucky Ticket) is not in any of the "Heaven Help Us" tracks or anywhere else so I guess JH recorded that specifically for that scene in 1997 . You can notice the rather dreadful edit too (stereo fade out from original recording to fade in solo pipe in right channel back to original recording).
For the first part of the "Lovejoy Chase" (when they start running and get into the lift until they stop in the engine room), this is all the re-recorded version from 1997, quite a different mix and a more pronounced/clean sound.
J-BM it would be interesting to hear what the music editors have to say about it if they remember it correctly
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Judging from the samples on the site, it's just the raw sessions. A bit dissapointing to say the least...
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It's a complicated track. It starts with the 'Cosmic Beam drone' and segues into Pärt's 'Annum per Annum', overlayed with Zimmer's own recording ending in a crossover with Fauré's 'In Paradisium'. None of which are credited by LLL. So my guess is, it's just the track from the sessions without the source music.
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Right, that's our job!
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If a label calls a track 'film version' then I expect it to be 'as heard in the film'. Sure, there can still be differences in film mix and edits, but bottom line is it should be as accurate to the film as possible.
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I'm not talking about the advertising, I'm talking about the tracks themselves. Look at the LLL Titanic release, some tracks are labeled (film version), so clearly someone edited it that way. That's completely missing in these tracks for TTRL... yeah, I know, my expectations are quite high.
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LLL is clearly emphasizing the 'Expanded' in this score release. They never mention 'Complete' or 'Film mix', which is a bummer. Even if it gets a deluxe treatment and is chronologically represented, that's not what most of us are looking for (those familiar with the bootlegs/sessions). But I'm afraid it's just that, the remastered sessions without any kind of editing or attempt at a film mix.
'Witt With Melanesians' is the Badelt cue, but not as heard as in the movie.
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The disc compilation of TTRL is exactly as I suspected (see my previous post)! But, it's weird, they left quite some important music out. For starters, the source music is completely left out, that's essential for this score! Also, I'm curious how they edited the Cosmic Beam tracks 'McCron freaks', 'Snake in Grass', 'Sit back & Relax' into this mix. At first sight, it looks like a lot of cues are missing. I also doubt if most of the tracks are actual film mixes/edits. I'll have a more detailed look soon.
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I think a revised TTRL custom is coming up.
I'm curious to what's new, I pretty much covered everything from that score.
LLL could have been a bit more original with the cover though...
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I found this comment:
QuoteOne frustrating aspect of modern movies are that they show an actor with a set of highland pipes and the soundtrack plays a smallpipe with a larger or more chromatic musical range. This can lead to a disappointed patron when you explain that the "Dragon's Lullaby" (from Dragon World) or the "Outlawed tunes on an Outlawed Pipe" (from Braveheart) can't be played on your pipe. (In both these cases, the music comes from Uilleann pipes and not Great Highland Bagpipes.)
So even if they wanted to use bagpipes, it wasn't musically possible to play those notes. Interesting!
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I recall a commentary from Mel Gibson on the DVD, I believe it was he who chose the ulleann pipes, not Horner. He thought the highland bagpipes were too damn loud. Good choise Mel!
That imagery from Toll is just breathtaking, same goes for Thin Red Line. No wonder those are 2 of my fav movies.
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Yes, that could possibly be a reason.
Hard to starboard also has a different approach moments before it hits the berg. Both the leak/LLL have the percussion accompanied by an eerie/ghostly effect (which is not in the film mix). Only the alternate version on LLL has this part without the ghostly effect BUT does not use the right synth drums, so also incorrect. I fixed this by combining the two cues and loop the drums. Also a funny sidenote, the same eerie sound returns at the end of the cue (when the berg passes by) but also in a different mix than both the leak/LLL releases, so I had to fix that too. It's so much fun Mr. Cameron.
4 hours ago, bollemanneke said:Yes, I went to the live concert before the LLL/leak came out and before I became intimately famliar with the score: it was amazing, but don't ask me any details because I just immensely enjoyed it, nothing more.
I was wondering if the Live concert played the film version of 'Unable to stay, unwilling to leave' and I meant to ask you, but I already found an answer via a youtube clip. Apperantly the uilleann pipes were still used during the second part. I don't get it,... It should have been easy not to have included that. I still think the film version without the pipes is much better, more intimate. But I guess someone decided to play what's on the album.
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If I may have a guess. I think Cameron used the original cue from 'Heaven help us' for both parts. Ordered Horner to re-record the track with different endings/mixes, but turned out too similar. Cameron obviously wasn't pleased. The re-recording has the bagpipes on full force, the original 'Heaven help us' cue has more balance between instruments, more underscored. So he decided to go with his temp-track for the second part (easier to track), the re-recording for the first part just to have some sense of difference.
Why it wasn't included in the leak? I asked myself the same question. Probably an error by the editor, one of so many. Thankfully it was in the LLL set.
Find logic in this: In the leak, the source cues for the 3rd class party, are the correct ones (accurate film mix including the handclapping as per recorded by Gaelic Storm during their own sessions). Yet, on the LLL release, it's a different recording/mix without the handclapping. And that's just one example...
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Have any of you guys actually seen the 'Titanic Live' concert? I quickly checked their site and apperantly they are still showing. I wonder how close they matched the actual film mix/edit, just in general, not specifically the stem leak. I suppose they did all the post-processing effects and synths orchestral.
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On 9/11/2018 at 9:54 PM, Mr. Who said:
Actually more than 5 hours! Many different and early versions of cues. Also pieces that weren't in the movie or that later on became cues.
Actually, almost 6 hours! Yes, film mixes, alternates and source cues. This will be cut down to probably less than half that time once the LLL version releases. I just want to keep the film mix in my new compilation (maybe with some narration, but still have to consider that).
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Hey TitanicFan, have you found the right source cue for that piano performance? I have found several cues, but none were exactly the right tone. That's one of the tracks that I had originally in my mix, but eventually removed.
Btw, the film stem leak is a load of crap. On first sight, the edit looks fine. But don't be fooled, it is not. It has many differences from the film mix/edit (too many for my taste), and don't get me started on the track quality. Initially, I worked with the film stems to make a complete mix. But thank god LLL came with their release. I basically threw everything in the trash and started over. Yeah sure, there are (short) pieces (ie in Hard to starboard/Rose/Unable to stay, Unwilling to leave/...) that you can't do without, but most part of that leak is a waste of time. Sadly there are also cues that aren't released (Drone&Chord, Violin tool kit, Wild piano), that makes the complete edit a bit more difficult, but hey, you can always work your way around that.
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Yeah, crocodile is right. It's Malick, there's no logic. He frames his shots so beautiful, it's like a painting, true art! That's why I think TTRL really stands out there. It's so unconventional, it's one of a kind.
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Yeah, I remember leaving the theater after seeing TTRL for the first time, it left me completely speechless. That only happened a couple of times in my life.
Hands down Zimmer's best score!
They should have released a 4K remaster with the 20th anniversary though.
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2 hours ago, mstrox said:
They said not all the “score” was there, and then mentioned four source pieces, which are not score?
The source cues are not score, no. Did I say the score was incomplete? I don't remember that. In fact, the score itself is complete (and completely film mix accurate if you put some work into it). It's the source cues that are not complete, or should I say unreleased (to my knowledge). My quest here is to identify those missing pieces and maybe find out more about them. It's no technical issue, it's an informational issue.
You guys seem to know quite a lot about JW, that's why I came aboard. But as I said, I suspect JW not to have been involved in these particular source cues, unlike some other source pieces in the movie (ie 'Por una Cabeza' or 'Milosc Ci Wszystko' which were adapted by JW).
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Yes, I know what source music is. LLL didn't include any of JW's written source music either. Those were left on the RS.
Many of the source music have been identified though, and is available in some sorts. I haven't been able to track down the 4 cues that I mention specifically in my post, which leaves me with an incomplete mix. So I was curious if someone else was able to identify those tracks and could possibly help me in my search. If they are completely unreleased, so be it... but I need some sort of confirmation on that.
James Horner's TITANIC (2017 4CD expanded edition from La-La Land Records)
in General Discussion
Posted
Yes well I'm happy you finally agreed that a part of your (acquired) information isn't completely accurate. And if we can get to the bottom of this and set things straight, all is good. Just to set our minds at ease
I was thinking if Eric hasn't the final verdict on this, maybe we could contact Mike M. from LLL and ask for his opinion. He worked closest on this score in the recent years and maybe to his recollection he can shed more light on this matter. There must be a reason the cue for "A Lucky Hand" wasn't included on the 4CD. If our speculation of the cue being licensed from HHU is true, that would make a whole lot of sense.