Tydirium

Man, it’s depressing just how much better this sounds than Holt’s Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Dang. Wish we had gotten something so much better for that bit now. 😢

i feel like there has been repeated behind the scenes infighting about how the score is supposed to sound like

Lol, that explains why that was my least favorite part of the cue. Unbelievable, you get William Ross and you try to make him write like Hans Zimmer?

What do you mean? You don’t think it’s strange that they waited so abnormally long to announce her? (They even announced the Andor composer before her, and that show comes out even later.) You don’t think it’s strange that her Obi-Wan theme was replaced at the last minute with a theme by John Williams? You don’t think it’s strange that she wasn’t allowed to adapt JW’s theme in her score, and instead one of his decades-long collaborators Bill Ross was hired? You don’t think it’s strange that Bill Ross apparently ended up doing way more than simply integrating JW’s theme, to the point that he even scored big sequences like the Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel? You don’t think it’s strange that Ross gets a big listing all to himself in the credits, right after Holt’s name, rather than appearing later with the additional music composers? You don’t think it’s strange that this is a show full of legacy characters set between the PT and OT, and yet not a single JW legacy theme has shown up yet?
 
Come on, there are way too many things out of the ordinary here. Frankly I find it ridiculous that you could think the desire to make sense of all this, is rooted in sexism. We would be just as curious (and upset at the problems with this score) if this were a male composer.

What do you mean? You don’t think it’s strange that they waited so abnormally long to announce her? (They even announced the Andor composer before her, and that show comes out even later.) You don’t think it’s strange that her Obi-Wan theme was replaced at the last minute with a theme by John Williams? You don’t think it’s strange that she wasn’t allowed to adapt JW’s theme in her score, and instead one of his decades-long collaborators Bill Ross was hired? You don’t think it’s strange that Bill Ross apparently ended up doing way more than simply integrating JW’s theme, to the point that he even scored big sequences like the Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel? You don’t think it’s strange that Ross gets a big listing all to himself in the credits, right after Holt’s name, rather than appearing later with the additional music composers? You don’t think it’s strange that this is a show full of legacy characters set between the PT and OT, and yet not a single JW legacy theme has shown up yet?
 
Come on, there are way too many things out of the ordinary here. Frankly I find it ridiculous that you could think the desire to make sense of all this, is rooted in sexism. We would be just as curious (and upset at the problems with this score) if this were a male composer.

What do you mean? You don’t think it’s strange that they waited so abnormally long to announce her? (They even announced the Andor composer before her, and that show comes out even later.) You don’t think it’s strange that her Obi-Wan theme was replaced at the last minute with a theme by John Williams? You don’t think it’s strange that she wasn’t allowed to adapt JW’s theme in her score, and instead one of his decades-long collaborators Bill Ross was hired? You don’t think it’s strange that Bill Ross apparently ended up doing way more than simply integrating JW’s theme, to the point that he even scored big sequences like the Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel? You don’t think it’s strange that Ross gets a big listing all to himself in the credits, right after Holt’s name, rather than appearing later with the additional music composers? You don’t think it’s strange that this is a show full of legacy characters set between the PT and OT, and yet not a single JW legacy theme has shown up yet?
 
Come on, there are way too many things out of the ordinary here. Frankly I find it ridiculous that you could think the desire to make sense of all this, is rooted in sexism. We would be just as curious (and upset at the problems with this score) if this were a male composer.

I guess it makes sense now why they waited so long to announce her as the composer: they were waiting to see if Bill Ross was able to write enough music, fast enough, to give him the main credit. 😆😩
 
Seriously though, here's my best guess at what happened: Holt gets hired, writes and records much if not all of her score. Either test audiences or someone high up is not happy, and realizes they've got a problem on their hands. They don't want to announce her and then have to later announce that she's been replaced (partly because of the optics in 2022 of potentially replacing "the first female Star Wars composer" with an old white male), so they hold off and see what can be done about it.
 
Kathleen Kennedy reaches out to John Williams and asks if he can do it, but he responds "I only want to write a theme for Benny" (lol, part of me really does wonder if that was the context of that quote, but they spun it for their own PR purposes), but he suggests William Ross to help "fix" the score. JW writes his Obi-Wan theme in two weeks, effectively replacing Holt's Obi-Wan theme. Ross takes JW's theme and starts arranging and adapting it for various scenes in the show. He also tackles bigger moments like the Vader/Obi-Wan duel (and likely, more scenes in future episodes), that the higher ups feel absolutely do not work with Holt's score.
 
Eventually, they do decide to announce Holt as the composer (likely because there's simply not enough time for Ross to replace virtually everything), but Ross still gets a high-level listing in the end credits, purportedly just for adapting the Obi-Wan theme... even though in truth he obviously did much more than just that, and ended up replacing multiple other big cues that were originally written by Holt/her team.
 
What do you think? I don't think it's an unreasonable theory, given what we know.
 
 
Ohhh, my bad. Sorry!
 
EDIT: It’s also possible that the Vader/Obi duel was originally scored with Holt’s Kenobi theme, and that that’s why Ross scored that cue… But I’m still leaning more towards my theory that they were considering replacing her completely, due to how long they waited to announce her.

I've been re-listening through the episode, and I think you're right. I admit I wrongly judged that brass triplet spot a bit harshly initially; really I think it just felt jarring after all the RCP stuff I had been hearing. It does sound a lot closer to JW's style, and I also noticed that that cue actually starts a bit earlier, and continues to go on for quite a while... Notice how it's perfectly scored to line up with the scenes switching back and forth between Obi-Wan/Vader, Tala/Leia, and Reva.
 
When Reva is snooping around, there is a very Star-Wars-y horn line that shows up a couple times (reminds me of the beginning of the new logo music), and the string writing for the Tala/Leia scenes also reminds me more of JW. The second brassy spot later in the duel actually reminds me a lot of Ross' score for Tale of Despereaux, namely this (start at 0:07):
 
 
So, I think it's safe to say that he scored most of the duel!
 
 
Yep, I agree completely. Love that horn solo of the Obi-Wan theme! It felt very classic-Star-Wars, and really stood apart from everything up to that point.
 
 
I swear, if the cue for the duel doesn't get released and properly credited...
 
Considering the fact that I think there are going to be two digital soundtrack albums of three episodes each (someone correct me if I'm wrong), they really have no good reason to leave any of the Ross stuff off. Come to think of it, I wonder who is primarily editing together the album; I hope Ross' music gets adequately represented. And really, his name ought to be included on the cover.

Why not give Bill Ross the whole show, then? I think everybody would have been happy if he was the main guy.

Don't think so. There's a theme that sounds a bit similar to the ANH stormtrooper theme... but remember, Holt said she composed her own stormtrooper theme. So, it's not that.
 
It's really sad when you think of all the themes that one could reasonably expect to be in this show, based on the characters and locations... Battle of the Heroes, Imperial March, Qui-Gon's theme, Mustafar theme, Princess Leia's theme, stormtrooper theme, Force theme. Yet not one of those has really shown up yet. I just can't believe what a wasted opportunity this is.

Just watched the third episode...
 
 

What do you mean? You don’t think it’s strange that they waited so abnormally long to announce her? (They even announced the Andor composer before her, and that show comes out even later.) You don’t think it’s strange that her Obi-Wan theme was replaced at the last minute with a theme by John Williams? You don’t think it’s strange that she wasn’t allowed to adapt JW’s theme in her score, and instead one of his decades-long collaborators Bill Ross was hired? You don’t think it’s strange that Bill Ross apparently ended up doing way more than simply integrating JW’s theme, to the point that he even scored big sequences like the Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel? You don’t think it’s strange that Ross gets a big listing all to himself in the credits, right after Holt’s name, rather than appearing later with the additional music composers? You don’t think it’s strange that this is a show full of legacy characters set between the PT and OT, and yet not a single JW legacy theme has shown up yet?
 
Come on, there are way too many things out of the ordinary here. Frankly I find it ridiculous that you could think the desire to make sense of all this, is rooted in sexism. We would be just as curious (and upset at the problems with this score) if this were a male composer.

What do you mean? You don’t think it’s strange that they waited so abnormally long to announce her? (They even announced the Andor composer before her, and that show comes out even later.) You don’t think it’s strange that her Obi-Wan theme was replaced at the last minute with a theme by John Williams? You don’t think it’s strange that she wasn’t allowed to adapt JW’s theme in her score, and instead one of his decades-long collaborators Bill Ross was hired? You don’t think it’s strange that Bill Ross apparently ended up doing way more than simply integrating JW’s theme, to the point that he even scored big sequences like the Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel? You don’t think it’s strange that Ross gets a big listing all to himself in the credits, right after Holt’s name, rather than appearing later with the additional music composers? You don’t think it’s strange that this is a show full of legacy characters set between the PT and OT, and yet not a single JW legacy theme has shown up yet?
 
Come on, there are way too many things out of the ordinary here. Frankly I find it ridiculous that you could think the desire to make sense of all this, is rooted in sexism. We would be just as curious (and upset at the problems with this score) if this were a male composer.

Love it!! 
 
It's definitely less melodically unified, and a bit more haphazard in general, than JW's Overture to the Oscars.
 
But it's chock-full of wonderful Walton influence and delightfully exuberant. A real joy to listen to -- reminds me why JW is my all-time favorite composer. A bit of American Journey melded with Overture to the Oscars and For New York/To Lenny. Just magnificent.
 
The quote of "Hooray for Hollywood" at the very end is so cheeky! JW blends it in so well. (Did anyone else catch it? I'm pretty sure it's there though maybe I'm imagining it.)

Hello there!
 
 
Whew.  There's a lot goin' on there.  Maybe it's the garbage audio quality, but from here it's like "Scherzo for X-Wings" had a mutant baby with "In the Moonlight."  This one's definitely a grower for me.  Maybe he'll revise it.
 
 

After the whole Captain Marvel situation where that was more of a blatant effort to disparage Pinar Toprak (for which Giacchino had to step up and clarify things), I can see being a little suspicious of a similar thing happening in a later Disney franchise (that is currently going through lesser fans review bombing the series because the crew decided to defend one of the lead actors from online attacks).
 
However, with how transparent Holt herself is about things having been a bit different prior to JW coming in (plus the way the credits are lined up so blatantly like it is for Ad Astra/Age of Ultron), there's definitely a larger implication of behind the scenes fuckery that goes beyond the previous instance of a composer needing help on her first big project (which is far more understandable for a character that had no on screen history prior).

What do you mean? You don’t think it’s strange that they waited so abnormally long to announce her? (They even announced the Andor composer before her, and that show comes out even later.) You don’t think it’s strange that her Obi-Wan theme was replaced at the last minute with a theme by John Williams? You don’t think it’s strange that she wasn’t allowed to adapt JW’s theme in her score, and instead one of his decades-long collaborators Bill Ross was hired? You don’t think it’s strange that Bill Ross apparently ended up doing way more than simply integrating JW’s theme, to the point that he even scored big sequences like the Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel? You don’t think it’s strange that Ross gets a big listing all to himself in the credits, right after Holt’s name, rather than appearing later with the additional music composers? You don’t think it’s strange that this is a show full of legacy characters set between the PT and OT, and yet not a single JW legacy theme has shown up yet?
 
Come on, there are way too many things out of the ordinary here. Frankly I find it ridiculous that you could think the desire to make sense of all this, is rooted in sexism. We would be just as curious (and upset at the problems with this score) if this were a male composer.

A lot of interesting clues have been left by Holt herself too. 

It's got nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman, and everything to do with the fact that the score rejects the usage of themes audiences know and expect, despite the fact that Star Wars has such a wealth of well-known themes built up for these different characters. That, and the fact that the music identity for this show seems to be in conflict with itself: part of it is largely non-thematic and/or uses new themes for characters with pre-existing themes, overall in a more modern RCP, Zimmer style; and other bits use the Kenobi theme with an orchestra, written in the vein of Williams. They are vastly different approaches, so it's jarring. It just makes one wonder how we got to this point.

I gotta say it, I find it a little sus that people are looking for conspiracy theories for the first SW score by a woman.

Some interesting comparison images of Alderaan between ROTS and Kenobi. Crazy to think the former came out nearly two decades ago, truly ahead of its time visually:

I don’t think I’ve seen such a naked example of composing for Star Wars TV being a popularity contest, yikes
 
The buck still stops with Lucasfilm though, they would’ve had to have made the call that Nathalie would be suited for the role regardless of how many people expressed their interest in it. I think that’s why I see the problem lying more in vision and management, since they’re the one choosing the ingredients so to speak

Disaster

We really gotta figure out what wen’t down behind the scenes with this score