Amvanquish

So pleased that our late Queen Elizabeth 2nd honoured John Williams with this knighthood and was one of the very last things she signed off on before she died. Sir John Williams KBE - well done maestro!! And I don’t care, being a Brit as far as I’m concerned, he deserves to have Sir before his name because he has said many a time that he is a true Anglophile . I just hope that he gets the opportunity to get back to the U.K. and give a workout to the LSO because I feel in no uncertain terms , and I’m sure Sir John would agree, they helped contribute to his knighthood performing so many of his wonderful scores

I’ve no idea who @mattris is but thanks for the compliment Yes Jurassic it was a very interesting and challenging job, Basically about 30 of us determined about 90% of what the country saw in the U.K. cinemas . Sometimes if we didn’t think the film was commercially viable it would go straight to vid and, if it was ,we could make suggestions to the film distributor on its release date . We we’re in the unique position of seeing the film before the censor or film critics . Also for the benefit of the uneducated I personally knew the owners of National Screen Service in Perivale West London who supplied and made the film trailers and marketing materials for all the films ( NSS was also right next to Rank Film Distribution who supplied every film to every cinema in the U.K. and I know to this day the Operations Manager of that film service); and I had the privilege of watching trailers being made and how the music was put on and from where . I take it Jurassic that Mahler3 has contacted you and confirmed my credentials then?

I know what you are saying Crumbs but I did say pickups and extra shoots in a script are common - but this is a new ending being reshot

It’s definitely a burden when nearly all your other productions pushed into cinemas haven’t produced the expected returns and Disney plus are experiencing a backlash from the public and subscribers not happy with the way some animation is going with certain political , eco and gender perspectives being pushed. The public will vote by not buying a cinema ticket and if that’s a family of four , for Disney the revenue loss will be colossal. And when you get Disney executives saying that the public should not be addressed as “ ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls” in their theme parks you start to wonder just what the hell is going on in their film making divisions including Fox and Paramount that they took over.

I’m not - I’m questioning why Indiana Jones needs a new ending and John Williams has said a new ending needs to be rescored. That’s not trolling but now if you look all over social media - it’s alight with speculation as to what’s gone wrong and why it needs a new ending. And as an industry professional I’m afraid I’m baffled as to why it has needed a new one .It’s quite a rarity in the industry after principal photography has wrapped. Reshoots and pickups are common in a script but not a new ending which JW has said needs a reshoot and a rescore. Do you not realize how important that is and may cost quite a few million dollars/pounds to achieve? For Harrison to come back for a few days more work might be more than a 6 figure payment and affect other contractual obligations . Although he said at ( was it Comecon) that he was happy with it , somebody high up obviously wasn’t .Speculating, the box office returns may have something to do with it and certain execs or maybe even Lucas and Spielberg are worried about the ending and the fan base and have stepped in. Oh well - we shall no doubt find out in due course

How do you know that?? The greatest art of deception sometimes is to make out that you are somebody else who spins a line but creates a conversation that questions the narrative

Have you not wondered that because he has a mask - that he may actually be an industry professional ,has a computer generated voice and doesn’t want you to know who he really is . Its something to consider, there are whistleblowers you know who do get to certain positions and usually often quote the line that they cannot say much because they are “ in the house “ .

Yes Crumbs but sometimes these guys have industry contacts which happen to be correct. And I have to say 10 months after filming finished in February 2022 when Mangold said it was a wrap . He tweeted that . And now JW has said there’s a different ending a reshoot so needs a rescore. Surely after what John Williams said in Milan , it’s worth questioning what was wrong with the original ending . And it’s not a bizarre joke Mannakin. I find it somewhat strange that the film has required a new ending . So what was wrong with it ?

No I was the Senior Film Buyer for UCI , Warner Village and Vue cinemas working out of their Head Offices in Central London. Sometimes I’d watch 4 maybe 5 films a day of all genres then would make a decision as to whether to negotiate a deal to show them and and what size of screen I would put them in , whether we had 2/3 or 4 prints of a major film for release like a Bond or Star Wars film for scheduling purposes - each print and it’s revenue would be negotiated separately . I’d go to premieres nearly every week and be in screening rooms morning noon and night

I’m sure Jurassic Shark , Tim will provide you with the answer but the position I was in was quite powerful. I would sometimes see a working print of a film with temp music on and before film critics did and in some instances I was able to make suggestions to the film maker who sometimes sat in on the screenings with me or my equivalent industry colleagues. i sometimes made the suggestion that if you took that swear word out or redubbed it , you could change it from a 15 cert to a 12A and get an extra £5m-£10m at the box office , dependent sometimes on where it was positioned datewise and what other films were being released close to it. And sometimes those changes happened especially if it was a British film. We now know that the move was gradually made in the nineties by film makers to then create two versions and scenes shot twice with different language, A PG version for airlines and hotels, whilst a 12A/15 cert version would be in the cinema. So I was very much in the scheme of things as the industry evolved with video, CD , DVDs and eventually social media streaming

I suggest you ask Tim Burden He will confirm who I am and what I have done in the U.K. Film Exhibition industry for over 20 years.

I’m no troll and I take it you’ve watched all of it (I stumbled upon it 20 minutes ago and it opened my eyes)- but if Mangold is quoting this guy in Twitter tweets then ,who knows, maybe what he says should be considered. Maybe the ending was too woke for those who may have seen the film at test screenings. If Indiana through a time machine is wiped from existence leaving a woman to be the new Indiana Jones - god daughter or not - how do you think the fan base would feel ? And a day into its release the box office would plummet . The same can be said of James Bond who in Ian Flemings books is a white Caucasian misogynist playboy spy . Change that and you’ve lost the plot and the franchise. The first thing you would say after seeing Indiana next June would likely to be - why wasn’t this sorted out before it was released and corrected. All things should be discussed not dismissed regardless of whether you like it or not. I happen to listen to all points of view to build a picture regardless of how crazy it might be - sometimes they might just be right! Also I don’t dismiss trailer music - I’ve watched quite a few trailers in my time and some of the music composed has been quite good . Sometimes the main composers may write a 2 minute segment and give it to trailer companies to orchestrate and score using computerised decks to achieve a full orchestral score. Clearly none of you criticising me have worked in the industry like I have. However, back to Indiana Jones principal photography wrapped, that’s it WRAPPED, in February 2022, pickup shots etc are always the norm , but 10 months afterwards a new ending??? But when a writer in some of the trades says there has been screenings refuting what Mangold has said - then there should be questions asked. Maybe JW let something out of the bag in Milan? It’s going to be a very interesting next few weeks with leaks coming thick and fast which we will have to sift through . How bad did the ending have to be to warrant a new ending and reshoot ? That’s the question to be asked!

Well this guy seems to know a bit and quotes JW This guy who has the YT OverlordDVD seems to have personally riled Mangold

So this is interesting. Williams was conducting his music in Milan last night and he said there is a new ending to shoot for Indiana 5 and which needs to be scored. Most interesting as per this concert report below Concert report by Jason LeBlanc (original post) Best pieces / performances were Helena’s Theme, Princees Leia’s Theme, Schindler’s List. He mixed up Fawkes with Buckbeak, Empire with Jedi, the ET moon with the ET sunset, and seemed to take longer to tell the usual stories than their best more succinct versions He said there was a new ending to “shoot” and then score for Indiana Jones 5! But it was overall very special, he seemed to really cherish the experience, and the orchestra seemed to really give it their best. Williams made sure to highlight the soloists and they deserved it. So the score was not completed in mid October - more work to do for JW with a new ending then. I wonder who wasn’t happy with the ending ? Producer , Director , Disney Execs?? Or did they have a test screening and have reacted to comments ? Im wondering now if Spielberg has made some suggestions or some improvements to tighten or expand the edit.

Thx Crumbs for that info

Does anybody know if this concert is going to be broadcast live online , on Italian television or on italian radio? Perhaps Daniel you could ask at the box office or any technician there at the venue?

I didn’t say I can’t tell you whether it was him . Not knowing is not a qualification and as you don’t know either - you cannot own the word qualify. I would like to know who did it and as Thor has diplomatically pointed out , it will no doubt come to light. Neither you or I should have egg on our faces making claims about its validity . If Williams composed it - fine - then you can criticise it but as you or I don’t have the info yet - let’s just wait and see who comes forward which is what I am asking - BECAUSE I DONT KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU!!!

So we should all use Penna and Datameister as the benchmark for qualifying any music of any kind and as to whether it’s any good or not. Well once you’ve watched thousands of films as part of your job and you listen to the music before anybody else does , been on hundreds of set visits and recording sessions and talked with producers, directors ,actors/actresses and musicians , in your eyes that obviously doesn’t qualify you for anything then when building your experience and knowledge.

Well Tolkien , I think I do have an ear for music having followed John Williams consistently since 1972 after hearing The Poseidon Adventure. I have a vast music library ( vinyl, tape , CD and streamed )of Korngold, Steiner , Tiompkin , Williams , Goldsmith, Horner , Barry , Zimmer , Arnold, Goodwin , Walton, Jarre, Morricone etc etc etc to name but a few . And yes Williams to me tops the lot. What right have you got to say I don’t have an ear for music? My tastes range from Opera , to the Classics and to modern pop and rock I am merely asking the question if John Williams composed the trailer music and if not who did? And let me just say that perfectly capable composers who compose exceptionally good music for computer games are employed for trailer music . . I’ve met them at awards ceremonies for BAFTA. Are you putting down budding composers who don’t have an ear for music either ? I think I would have questioned the trailer music if the Indy music had not been included . Also experience of the film industry and its workings should never be put down . Years ago when JWFan was set up in the mid nineties I did furnish it with insider information that I was privy to . Ask Tim Burden who I am and then you’ll know!!!

We can all say yes or no but where’s the evidence? Its still not answering the question Did John Williams compose the trailer music , if not , who did???????? if I was in the US working within the industry , I would have got to the bottom of it within minutes but being in the U.K. even with my contacts at Abbey Road and Air Studios , knowledge is limited

Again you don’t have the answer just supposition. And I have to say sometimes it’s not “obvious” I’ve worked in the U.K. film industry at all levels so I have a bit of an idea how it works ! SO WHO DID IT???? Thats the question I’m asking ? Come forward those who know either from the scoring stage or a trailer house and prove it to us who scored the trailer !

Still not an answer Holko And what would you then say if he had scored the trailer? Its not that bad after you get through the tinkling piano and shimmering strings at 1.00. In composition speak it’s called building to the payoff - the knowledge we are probably witnessing the last Indiana Jones film ,the last time we see Harrison Ford in the role - and of course John Williams final outing for it too

What evidence do you have that he didn’t compose it? You can’t just say No! Come forward the person who did? There must composer/musicians out there who have the answers ? I am directing my questions to them who may be on this website and up until now have been sworn to secrecy re the score or trailer score. Dont forget that JW may have some input into the trailer music if any of his score is used and may have final approval over it ;so to say you hope he never hears it is a bit shallow. Consequently , if you were the producer director of the main film putting the trailer together , do you not think it would be respectful and a common courtesy to show a composer of John Williams standing, the treatment given to his music in a trailer before it went out? I think I would!

Surely there are some musicians who worked on IJ Dial of Destiny who can clarify if John Williams did the trailer music. if John didn’t compose it , what music production company did and who was the orchestrator composer ? it does sound remarkably similar in its orchestrations to the Harry Potter Prisoner of Azkaban trailer music

Did John Williams do the music for the trailer at his first recording session a few months ago. Maybe some musicians out there who worked on the film and trailer can clarify ?