Tom Guernsey

For The Lion/Witch/Wardrobe, I remember commenting (I may even have still been reviewing on my old website) that we were lucky to have JW scoring Harry Potter and writing themes that entered the public consciousness when we might have got something like this which even a dedicated soundtrack fan would have trouble picking out of a lineup. The music is nice enough but it really does make you appreciate just how incredibly good JW is at creating themes that people remember.

Absolutely that! As I said in one of my original comments, he spends so much time and energy in the show saying "this sounds like this" for fragments of themes or melodies that often only slightly resemblance the source material, but ignoring the vast majority of the score which is comprised of wholly original material and/or JW does entirely his own thing with it. Whatever the allusions, it still sounds like JW and he pretty much does his own thing with all of them, they are just fragments of an idea on which he builds something new. Sure, some are closer than others (it's undeniable that, say, the Love Theme from Superman follows the shape and, perhaps more importantly, the harmonic shift of Death and Transfiguration) but most are just a couple of notes of similarity before JW goes off and does entirely his own thing.

The only thing I would say is that I believe the estates of the original creators are fairly prescriptive as to how WWS is put on. I imagine that SS could have used his clout, backed with his considerable talent, to propose something more revisionist, but productions of WSS are largely required to be pretty faithful to the original. While I imagine SS wasn't especially looking to make a radical re-imagining, there was probably limited scope for doing so in any event.

Interesting, I can hear a slight echo in the Elgar but an allusion that's closer to coincidence than anything specific. The BTTF/Across the Stars is an interesting one, I'd never noticed before. Surely coincidence, but you never know, maybe JW is a massive fan of time bending comedies?! That pretty much sums it up. His reference points and arguments are incredibly hackneyed. I think I just found the whole thing dispiriting as he could have made some interesting points, say, comparing how JW used leitmotif in Star Wars compared to Wagner or something a bit more interesting but chose to do down the cliched route. Thanks to everyone else who commented, agree with all your points! I almost felt like I was posting one of those "am I the arsehole?" threads... as in, am I just being a sensitive dick about this show, but actually, nah, it was just crap and relied on the same old prejudices. What a waste. Especially compared to the episode of Sound of Cinema from a few months ago where Matthew Sweet did a run through of less well known JW scores. I appreciate that's a specific film music show, but actually trying to highlight that there's a whole lot more to JW than Star Wars, Spielberg and Harry Potter was a breath of fresh air.

Ooh this is on my presto wish list. Any good? I have several versions of the Sibelius version.

I’ve heard that suite so many times I need to listen to it more carefully next time. I remember the first time I heard it, I was moving out of my university accommodation but was far more interested in hearing Jerry scoring a Disney film! I would add that I I doubt anyone who only remembers the songs is going to be the core demographic for a Jerry concert! I mean those fools are missing out. But their loss! 😜 I remember that. Nice to respect Jerry in that way. Just a shame he wasn’t around to score the live action version. I think he’d have written an absolutely brilliant job (I’ve not heard HGW’s effort given the muted reaction).

Now you’re just splitting hairs 😜

Gosh I have to admit that I seem to remember absolutely loathing the Karajan version. Maybe I should revisit it?! Although perhaps I have a different version? I know he recorded quite a few things a number of times.

Exactly. I mean if you’re going to go for the Holst comparison then the rebel blockade runner or those crushing blows when the blow up the Death Star are much closer. But again these are fragments and hardly representative of the whole cues. I’ve usually seen the Imperial March compared to Shostakovich but only in a broad stylistic way in terms of heavy brass and percussion but nothing specific. I’m a pretty enthusiastic Shostakovich fan and have a lot of his music and have never found anything that sounds more than a general style let alone something where, for example, the rhythm, intervals or those triplet figures are derived.

Good call. And Ed Shearmur!

Posted this in the more general homage thread but possibly better here… I wasn’t sure where to post this but the latest episode of BBC Radio 3’s The Listening Service is dedicated to JW. Sadly, after a promising start expounding the virtues of the opening of CE3K (amongst others), the first half is an uninspired slog through all of his classical precedents. Even more frustrating is some are no more than a vague resemblance… the force theme and the fate motif from Wagner’s Ring… I mean… maybe. A bit?! Or Tchaikovsky’s sugar plum fairy is like Harry Potter because they both use the Celeste. Uh huh. Although he did reference something by Faure that sounded a bit like hedwig’s theme which is a new one. I don’t deny a passing similarity, but only in passing. I don’t even think the Imperial March sounds much like Mars from the Planets aside from both being minor key marches. Even more weird since there are a couple of passages in the original Star Wars which genuinely do sound like Mars. It feels like the intent was to show how JW anchored his best known ideas in the classical repertoire and reinterpreted it them for the cinema. However for the average high brow Radio 3 listener I rather think they’d get the impression that all of his music is just ripped off Prokofiev, Holst, Strauss etc. which is frustrating as those references constitute a vanishing minority of his music and plenty of his scores only sounds like himself. A shame as there are some more interestingobservations later on in the show but by that time you get to those you just feel like it’s a JW musical character assassination! I’d be interested to hear anyone else’s thoughts…

I wasn’t sure where to post this but the latest episode of BBC Radio 3’s The Listening Service is dedicated to JW. Sadly, after a promising start expounding the virtues of the opening of CE3K (amongst others), the first half is an uninspired slog through all of his classical precedents. Even more frustrating is some are no more than a vague resemblance… the force theme and the fate motif from Wagner’s Ring… I mean… maybe. A bit?! Or Tchaikovsky’s sugar plum fairy is like Harry Potter because they both use the Celeste. Uh huh. Although he did reference something by Faure that sounded a bit like hedwig’s theme which is a new one. I don’t deny a passing similarity, but only in passing. I don’t even think the Imperial March sounds much like Mars from the Planets aside from both being minor key marches. Even more weird since there are a couple of passages in the original Star Wars which genuinely do sound like Mars. It feels like the intent was to show how JW anchored his best known ideas in the classical repertoire and reinterpreted it them for the cinema. However for the average high brow Radio 3 listener I rather think they’d get the impression that all of his music is just ripped off Prokofiev, Holst, Strauss etc. which is frustrating as those references constitute a vanishing minority of his music and plenty of his scores only sounds like himself. A shame as there are some more interesting observations later on in the show but by that time you get to those you just feel like it’s a JW musical character assassination! I’d be interested to hear anyone else’s thoughts…

Let’s leave dragon scoring to John Powell. 😜

I'm sure if the Mulan suite were by someone else he'd have credited them somewhere. I do agree that it's strange he picked this suite to play in concerts though as it contains barely a minute (approx) of his own material. I mean, the song arrangements are superb but it's not exactly highlighting his contributions. Then again, I'm not entirely sure what track I'd have picked instead...

On the basis of no evidence whatsoever(!), my feeling is that any discussion about an alternative to using the original main theme would just have been one of those spitballing "there are no bad ideas" type discussions just to kick the idea around a bit before quickly returning to agreeing that it should just use the classic theme. As I've commented elsewhere, for me the Force theme has essentially usurped the opening title theme as the "main" theme for the franchise. It better captures the mythical tone Lucas was aiming for much more than the straightforwardly heroic "main" theme. Having said that, I don't think it would make as effective an opening title as it would either have to be a bit more martial or grandiose, but it wouldn't have the driving momentum that makes the "main" theme so thrilling. It's almost a prelude to grab your attention and get the viewer pumped both audibly and plot wise with the crawl. On the other hand, a martial version like for The Throne Room, is fine as a brief statement, but is really being forced - as it were - into a martial setting, rather than being the tone originally intended. Although I'm sure JW would have done a great job had that been an option. I'm not sure that The Flag Parade would have worked, it's a great track but was clearly meant to be a cute homage to Rozsa's Ben-Hur (perhaps musically it's closer to Ivanhoe, but it's clearly modelled on Parade of the Charioteers) than a theme to be used more extensively. The shape of Anakin's theme doesn't really suggest exciting adventure even though I concede that the fanfare version when he wins the Pod Race is pretty effective.

In yet more fluky timing, The Perfect Storm appeared in my extensive iTunes "up next" list (probably added it weeks ago!) and I mostly enjoyed it. It's one of those scores where I've listened to one track (Coming Home from the Sea) dozens of times but the entire score only a couple of times. I always feel I should find the electric guitar power anthem vibe supremely cheesy and, while I probably do, I lovely it! However, overall it is a pretty long album (pretty much up against the 80 minute CD limit) and I think I'd have to concede that an expansion might be overkill. Then again, it's James Horner so chances are, I would get an expansion anyway... Troy being the only one I've ever passed on.

Thanks @thx99. Don't go to too much effort on my account, it was a fairly casual query. Of course, if you want to do it for your own interest and want to share the results, that would be cool.

Any thoughts on the FYC versus OST? I know the contents are the same but I'm sure someone mentioned that it was mastered differently/better?

I smell bullshit but I wouldn’t be opposed to him being cast. Since his early fame as foppish English gent he’s become a pretty decent actor. His recent appearances in Charlie Brooker’s end of year spoof documentaries as a slightly racist old fashioned professor type were hilarious.

I don't recall the conversations, I think I always assumed it would be the original titles music, but it definitely feels like it could have been an exciting alternative way to start the prequels... if only the films that followed that opening had been as good ;-)

Things lost to the mists of time. I rather thing Duel of the Fates would have made a terrific opening crawl theme for the prequels. Those startling opening chords synchronised with Star Wars appearing on screen would have made a similar impact to the original brass chord I think. The actual piece might be a bit low key for its first couple of minutes as written but conceptually it could have been kinda cool. Then again, I’m the person who thinks that Star Trek:TMP should have opened with the v’ger music over the opening titles to give it a more mysterious start… so what do I know?!

Those are all terrific collections - ok the Silvestri selections are pretty standard but it’s a nice set anyway. But the others have a few interesting left field choices. All well played and recorded.

Annoyingly I can only see this on Amazon, anyone know where you can get it in lossless? (Obviously accessible to a European buyer!). Ta.

Yeah, I know... shrug! Oh well, I am patient* *I'm not.

Haha, yeah I actually thought twice about buying it, but it was from a charity shop so felt like an acceptable trade off... I don't actually like opera much but I do like Prokofiev so thought I'd give it a punt. As for the Mahler... I swore I wouldn't buy any more sets of his symphonies, but it was a bargain and I really like Haitink's Shostakovich so thought it was worth a punt. Only listened to the first symphony, but so far so good (not that I'm really that much of a connoisseur of Mahler performances...).