karelm

Sounds like a ride cymbal that could have benefited from a deesser to tame some of that harsh sizzle.

I listened to that same piece two days ago. What the hell??

Yes, these tiny moments were real joys for me as well because we've all seen the serious interview side of him and the grandfather side but now we've seen a charming, sparkle, fun side I don't think we've ever seen and it was a lovely part of him that brought me a lot of joy. I also loved that he wasn't that good at golf. They obviously could have reshot that missed puck and had him do it again till he made the hole but he doesn't care that much about the game, it was just the time chatting, remembering, walking, getting fresh air too.

Yeah, that's where I saw it. I also saw "Things to Come" (1935) by H.G. Wells on the same channel a few days earlier. Noteworthy because first film London Symphony Orchestra scored but the film is very timely once you get over the strange acting style (clearly all the cast has a theater background so seemed to be performing on stage. You get used to that and eventually start seeing it for what it was, a charming, imaginative, and ultimately timely film.

Today, I saw a little film for the first time by a then unknown director, The Sugarland Express. It was really good and deserves further discussion. To us, it is most famous for being Spielberg's cinematic theatrical directorial debut (he was 27 looking 14) and the first time he worked with our Johnny. I think it was very well directed considering it was the first time he helmed such a massive project with loads of actors, stunts, etc. Goldie Hawn was famous already but known primarily as a very cute, slapstick performer (think pie in the face) and this film shows her as a very capable actress. All the performances are solid and sympathetic. The actors are clearly invested in their roles. The film begins quite small in scope but grows to a very large police chase with lots of stunts, stunt driving, etc., but never strays from its focus on characters. In some ways it reminds me of "Smokey and the Bandit" (1977) with Burt Reynolds and Sally Fields as the very capable cute girl transitioning from TV comedy to feature film. Both films are basically talented and cute, young couple fleeing the police on a goal they cannot give up. The score is extremely minimal. It feels like there is maybe 20 to 25 minutes of score including the credits with half of it being maybe a trio of percussion (two percussionists very noticeably in what I think no one other than JW would do as the police get more involved), harmonica, and guitar. The bulk of what remains is very minimal such as quiet, small tension or chordal strings with a few brass chords and does not score the action at all but the mood sort of like how Saving Private Ryan never scores what is happening but scores what is being felt. This was so interesting to me because just a year later was Jaws (1975) which was a major change stylistically, musically, and commercially however you can clearly tell this was the same director. Also noteworthy was this film was very beautifully shot by Vilmos Zsigmond who went on to shoot one of the most beautiful films ever, Close Encounters. Zsigmond shot "Deliverance" (1972) and "Images" (1972) which we know was scored by Johnny and I think inspired much of this films style and was quite groundbreaking stylistically which I think is why Spielberg sought him out. Definitely worth watching but don't expect the giant spectacle films to come from these two though their fingerprints are clearly there. The film overall was very pleasant, mostly joyful, funny at times with strong character depth, excellent direction, tight script, and very fine acting plus introduced the world to a minor collaborative duo known as Steven Spielberg and John Williams. There was another great director who made a similar film at this same time, Terrance Mallick's "Badlands" from 1973. What a time of great filmmaking by innovative auteurs the 1970's was.

The director didn't like it because Elfman scored the wrong point of view. He was following the train so as it slowed, the score slowed. Raimi wanted the intensity amped up so technically, as the train approached the edge of the track should have been the moment of highest intensity matching the drama, not the action. Elfman and Raimi were butting heads a lot and he didn't rescore it so Young did taking the directors feedback and directives into account.

You can tell they were both taken the same day cuz Williams has a turtleneck in both. I'd say those pics came from Lucasfilm LTD. Google says the first use was from Chris Malone's ebook of recording the Star Wars Saga from 2009 before Lucasfilm was sold to Disney.

They're actually a very private family and not so comfortable in the limelight. That's true of Johnny too but he's had a lot of opportunity to get more used to it. Red carpets can be very overwhelming if you don't like the spotlight.

I don't think Elfman has any control - he doesn't own the material. We know that because we could use it without his input or involvement. It was Raimi who wanted the original material used and Chris said the themes needed to be flushed out further but preferred creating new themes than existing ideas that weren't full themes. There was a CD master made but my recollection is Sony determined not to make a soundtrack because the landscape was shifting and some other big budget film flopped (I just can't remember what it was...were all the Pirates movies huge successes?) so Sony felt that and a shift away from soundtracks to download was happening AND the film wasn't well received by fans. So the production company shelved the soundtrack back then. Chris was very excited to release the album and I remember seeing it as a single CD around 65 minutes in duration, but it was only the master that was submitted and the release squashed. They just didn't feel it was going to be sufficiently profitable at that time.

Yes, alternate takes and all. Maybe around 3 or 4 hours of music was recorded but much of it was just alternate takes. Like playing the love theme as written then playing it again but without the cued instruments then playing it again with maybe the piano sitting out type of thing. What ended up in the movie might be part of each so you have 3 different recorded cues, were two others rejected or were none rejected because they were all edited together? That's actually very common in film scores especially on huge budget films. Pirates 3 was being made at the same time and competing with musicians but similarly went through rounds and rounds of rescore and re-records. Stuff like that that I wasn't involved in as I only worked on the music and some spotting meetings. One other thing worth mentioning, sometimes (often) the filmmakers don't know what they want and ask two or more composers to score the same scene in different ways and then decide which they'll use. That happened too. So one shouldn't interpret that as the composer missed the mark because they might not have known of the other direction. It just gives filmmakers options, and they are still making the film so might like options especially on the big or important scenes. It is good for the composer to not be too married or have too much ownership of their work for film because they might find out during the premiere that half their biggest cue was dropped and replaced by something from someone else and they weren't aware of it.

I worked on that film with Young. Yes he wrote the whole score except the inserts that used Danny's music from Spidey 2. For example, the main title theme, Chris wrote his music then the music stopped for 18 bars (or whatever it was for the insert) that were just inserts of Danny's theme. We had access to all of Danny's material and could just insert but like any composer hired to score a film, you would want to do that as little as possible so you can produce your vision of the material. That happened wherever Danny's theme came in straight as written from prior films. Then got behind due to reshoots and revisions/reedits and there are loads of alternate cues. Eventually it got bad enough that he needed extra help though he had written material for scenes. There was a few times that his cue was rejected, and the alternates were used just like what happened in Spidey 2. This is for many reasons, there were tons of producers involved and each had opinions and contradicted each other and this applied to the film and score. Some preferred Young's cue, some preferred Debney's or whoever, etc. Some lamented wishing Elfman was the composer instead.

That's a good point. Johnny really could have ended film scoring then and gone the Andre Previn route and both were clearly calling on him. Previn even telling him to move off of film and get into conducting or concert music. It's a really great story we're privileged to have known and been part of for decades but he could have stopped in the mid 1970's and pivoted fully never to have done the works we know and love today AND still would have been a successful film composer, but perhaps more like a footnote in music history rather than the center of it. To most who've achieved success, that footnote is good enough.

And it was very well used! I agree, I'd rate this 10/10. I loved Chris Martin, Silvestri, and Seth McFarlane all in this - it shows of his reach. I had no idea Chris Martin was a big fan. We should all keep in mind, we aren't the target audience for this because we've heard the alternative binary sunset for decades. We already heard his Canadian first film score. I doubt we've ever seen him chit chatting about golf, his childhood memories, dad telling him to practice, so many very charming stories. I absolutely loved the relationships being shown, not just told. I've heard Spielberg and Lucas talk about how Johnny is always so great but here, I felt we saw what their relationship was like. We heard Johnny call Spielberg baby which just brought such a sweet moment because you know that's how he still sees him and how he called him since his hipster early 1970's day. One of the reasons why it was so nice having him pour over old scores like the rejected CEOTTK motifs is I've been curious about that forever and seeing him reminisce was just so pleasant. Of course I would love hours of just that kind of stuff but again, we're not the target audience. To me, that scene showed a lot of his process that's never been shown. Many of the ideas I played over were very similar to the one we know and love while others were quite different and I'm sure he could make any of them work, but it showed how he chiseled away something somewhat rough to get perfection. It felt as if the filmmaker just let Johnny be himself and talk through what we wanted rather than asking "Show us your CEOTTK rejected ideas" which wouldn't have had the same impact of this Master thinking through what he's done and how he approached challenges in the past. Overall, a fantastic, loving documentary and I'm certain there are hours of outtakes with other interesting bits and memories that had to be cut to make this a theatrical and viable cinematic production. Well done to all involved!

That was such a lovely, sweet film. I absolutely loved it. Like many others, I was very curious to see some of the other ideas of the 5 note CEOTTK "hello" motif so played through a few of them before getting bored with the idea. In short, they chose wisely. untitled.mp3

Anyone recognize this music? I like it and want to hear the rest of the score. Isolated audio attached but here is where it's from. It is using one of Chris Young's Spidey 3 themes but might just be highly manipulated. https://youtube.com/shorts/sDoUxsAhvaw?si=BUqvJbiyIn4B1kUy The 4 Faces Of Venom in Spider-Man 3-other.mp3

I'm sure we have threads on this topic such as JW's orchestration or style because it's very lengthy. Just off the top of my head is his polychords after the title crawl of Star Wars, that switches quickly from Korngold to Holst's Neptune to Mars. In a tone or two he immediately changes the impression and style extremely succinctly. There are thousands of examples, and I know we have threads on this topic and why does Williams sound like he does topics. Maybe I'll look for it later unless someone else finds them.

Lots of great points made in this thread. I think it's important to draw a distinction between what is purposefully needed and what is gratuitous. If you used a soprano and strings to say what you needed to say with a soprano and piano, then it was too much. With Williams, you see what is most succinctly needed even where large forces are used. Conrad Pope once mentioned for Gigolo Joe's seduction scene where the song "I only have eyes for you" was played, that is actually a JW arrangement and Johnny was very specific on the instrumentation. As Conrad put it, Johnny was an encyclopedia on musical styles and very specific for this cue on the film giving feedback that it needed to be 3 first violins, 3 second, 2 viola, etc. That is not how an accomplished orchestrator would have scored this music but was what was needed for a 1920's style. If it needed to sound 1950's style, it would have had a different instrumentation. Do you think any of the audience would have noticed or cared for such specifics? As Conrad put it, the composer schooled the orchestrator on what was appropriate for a specific scene. That is very unusual. I guarantee you, no film maker would have noticed or cared as long as it sounded good enough. But if you hire Williams, you expect perfection.

I think you miss the point. He uses what the score needs. In E.T., it's a very typical romantic sized symphony orchestra. In the prequels and Harry Potter, those were large orchestras even by Star Wars standards. I think JW is generally on the modest size. His big budget action scores will be on the large size but War Horse, Saving Private Ryan, and Schindler's List are generally modest. In War of the Worlds, I think his largest orchestra was including 12 horns, 3 timpanists, etc. From his point of view, that's what each score needed. Historically, the musicians were part of the studio orchestra and that allowed some impracticalities. West Side Story (1962) used three pianists. It didn't really need three musically, but conceptually this added some interesting effects on a cue or two. Some scores use very rare instruments and a lot of them (four contrabass saxophones or the serpents in Alien). These are generally examples where the creative concept required the rare instruments. But there is also gratuitous. I doubt Elliot Goldenthal's Final Fantasy really needed all 16 horns. There are different types of gratuitous too. One of the Pirates of the Caribbean films recorded strings in LA but brass in England with an English choir that was then replaced with the Vienna Boys choir.

I think it also has to capture something of the zeitgeist. At my local cafe a few days ago, the two young baristas were chatting about the music and one of them mentioned in passing how much she disliked the songs of the Beatles that were playing. Today it just doesn't impact young people but in the 1960's it sure did and left the older generation befuddled. In its time it spoke to that audience beyond simply music - it reflected and maybe amplified their style, attitudes, issues, longings, etc. I think Johnny's music does that but maybe not so much to the generation who didn't grow up with these films.

Judge dismisses sexual assault lawsuit as baseless. I think she was under the guidance of bad legal advice. In her ruling, the judge found that “no triable issue of fact” existed considering Elfman denied any wrongdoing under oath and Jane Doe admitted she was asleep at the time of the alleged assault. “Plaintiff has provided only speculative statements that it is possible she could have been sexually assaulted,” the judge wrote in her order. “The court must presume that Elfman will testify at his deposition to the same facts set forth in his declaration. … There is no basis to conclude that additional discovery in the form of Elfman’s deposition would help plaintiff to create a triable issue.” Danny Elfman Sexual Assault Accuser's Lawsuit Rejected by Judge (rollingstone.com)

Johnny made a cameo in my dream last night. Another one of those "he just happened to be sitting near me", chatting with a few people, full of smiles and usual gentle kindness. I think Jon Burlingame was there too talking about film music and I wanted to take a picture but felt the room was too small so I'd be noticed and kicked out. So I just quietly sat next to them listening.

But 2001 did that very successfully by showing the birth of the starchild which made no sense to most people but ultimately was a brilliant ending of the same type of thing. The birth of a new entity, the next step in evolution, a being that transcends time, space, reality in its new form. I think that's what TMP was saying but poorly.

In Star Trek The Motion Picture, what happens to V'ger after it completed its mission? When Decker merges with it, they all just vanish - doesn't that mean they still exist as a new entity? Why isn't it still trying to acquire all knowledge but now with human awareness too? The film kind of just ended with a big ex-machina that luckily the invading ship just went away.

Recent interview with Goldenthal: INTERVIEWS WITH ACTORS AND FILMMAKERSINTERVIEWS WITH ACTORS AND FILMMAKERS (filmtalk.org)

Damn, only 47 minutes total music? Today it would be 99% scored throughout.