Valentinice

That makes sense

Ah, shucks guys. I'm just happy lurking and reading all your smart, well educated posts. But Jay said he wished the community would talk more about this tremendous release, and I figured "what the heck"...

I received this lavish set over the weekend and have already spent hours listening to it. What an amazing release! Hats off to Mike Matessino and the team at La La Land for their hard work and passion. This movie and score really mean so much to me — having been constantly present throughout my childhood. It was probably my first introduction to John Williams! How lucky we are that this entire 3-CD production was given a such a reverent treatment. From the meticulous remaster and remix to the outstanding Jim Titus artwork. This is top tier work. The liner notes are a fantastic read as well. Really more of a short novella. But they don’t dive into the track-by-track minutia that would answer all of my questions. So, this afternoon, I set about aligning each track (as best I could) with both the previous 30th Anniversary release and the finished film to compare and contrast each musical moment - creating something of a chronological presentation and a breakdown of the key differences I was able to spot. I’m not a professional audio editor or a trained musician, so take all of this with a grain of salt. But hopefully this information can be helpful to anyone else — and if he has the time, perhaps Mike could chime in on some of the burning questions that remain. Or correct any errors that I may have made. They say the Rabbi who congratulates himself has a congregation of one. So as one of the faithful members of the Matessino synagogue, let me congratulate him on an amazing release! L’chaim! “Timpani Fanfare” Disc 3 Track 1. Timpani Fanfare :18 The rarely-heard stinger for the United Artists logo at the start of the film. “Prologue and Tradition & Main Title” Disc 1 Track 1. Prologue And Tradition & Main Title 11:21 Disc 2 Track 1. Prologue And Tradition & Main Title (Alternate) 11:31 Disc 3 Track 25. Fiddler On The Roof (Instrumental) 0:00 - 1:00 The Alternate version on disc 2 presents Topol’s narration as it appears in the finished film. Along with that, we also get a different take of the Rabbi’s blessing for the Tsar (“Far away from us”). This version includes the pipe organ overlay for the Russian Church section that was missing on the album presentation. The disc 2 Alternate also gives us the slightly extended musical moment for the villagers squabbling over the age of the horse (it was twelve) before we crash into the last triumphant reprise of “Tradition.” The Main Title on disc 1 is not quite in sync with the fiddler on screen, and is likely the more virtuosic performance that was originally composed for the sequence. I had difficulty syncing up the disc 2 Alternate - but this performance sounds closer to the one on screen, so I assume some micro edits were applied for the finished film. The“Fiddler on the Roof (Instrumental)” from disc 3 begins with the fiddle and flute duet from the beginning of the prologue — but doesn’t have the rest of orchestra join in as it does in the finished film and doesn’t feature Topol’s narration. I’m not clear where the second section of this track comes from. “The Conspiracy / Matchmaker / Donkey Serenade” Disc 1 Track 2. Matchmaker 3:58 Disc 2 Track 2. Matchmaker (Alternate) 3:42 Disc 3 Track 2. Matchmaker (Playback Version) 4:46 The Disc 2 Alternate begins with the musical intro sans dialogue. There appears to be a few seconds of woodwind music missing right before Tzeital throws on her “Yenta” blanket. The music does appear to be in tact underneath the dialogue on the the Disc 1 version. Perhaps this was an insert recorded later to accommodate a slower performance on set? When the song transitions to the upstairs of the house, the Alternate omits a whirling flute(?) flourish that is present in the final film and the Disc 1 presentation. Disc 3’s Playback version begins with underscore (“The Conspiracy”) before presenting the on-set playback version of the sing. The vocal performance in the Playback version is largely identical to the final film (not counting the spoken dialogue in between singing sections). The brass section is either absent, or just mixed considerably lower throughout the track, including the “cackling” trumpet when Tzeitel prances around in her Yenta outfit. The Playback version ends with a longer flourish, as heard in the finished film. It then transitions into another score cue, called “Donkey Serenade”. It’s unclear if this music was meant to begin immediately on the ending of “Matchmaker”, but as presented on Disc 3, it scores Tevye’s walk back to the farm with his injured horse (not a donkey). This cue was unused in the finished film. “If I Were A Rich Man” Disc 1 Track 3. If I Were A Rich Man 5:24 Disc 2 Track 3. If I Were A Rich Man (Alternate) 4:58 Disc 3 Track 3. If I Were A Rich Man (Playback Version) 5:03 The Alternate version on Disc 2 waits a few counts longer before bringing in the orchestra under Topol’s performance. I can spot a few subtle performance differences in the Alternate. These alternate takes seem to be sung more theatrically, with less breathiness or contemplation — but it’s very difficult to describe the nuance in each delivery. Each performance is staggeringly wonderful. “Sabbath Prayer” Disc 1 Track 4. Sabbath Prayer 2:41 Disc 2 Track 4. Sabbath Prayer (Alternate) 2:41 Disc 3 Track 4. Sabbath Prayer (Playback Version) 2:41 The Alternate version of this cue on Disc 2 includes a gorgeous violin overdub by Isaac Stern. This overlay is actually not present in the final film. I’m hard pressed to identify any major differences in Disc 3’s Playback version. I think I hear a slightly difference, more vibrato performance from Norma Crane as Golde, but this may just be a difference in source quality and mix. “Tevye Thinks On It” Disc 3 Track 5. Tevye Thinks On It 1:04 A brief cue that underscores the hilarious freeze frame of Lazar Wolf’s eye-popping expression as Tevye considers the marriage proposal. “To Life” Disc 1 Track 5. To Life 6:14 Disc 2 Track 5. To Life (Alternate) 6:19 Disc 3 Track 6. To Life (Playback Version) 6:47 Omitting the introductory dialogue, the Disc 2 Alternate is essentially the “Film Version” of this lengthy cue. The vocal performances are the takes used in the finished film (note Lazar Wolf’s bellowing “…something to be joyful FOR”). The Playback Version actually begins with the dialogue introduction from the film, which is messier and more rambling than the concise version on the main program. Once the action arrives at the bar, the Alternate version dials out the film dialogue and gives us the rousing underscore. The Playback version includes an unused 8 bars of music before the bar patrons jump in with their congratulations. When the Russian dancers join the song, the Playback version seems to feature either a completely different singer or perhaps just a different take of his solo. When Tevye collides with one of the dancers, the music stops. Amid the ensuing standoff, the camera gives us some Sergio Leone style closeups to build the tension. The music plays a series of mandolin strums to ratchet it up. Interestingly, the Playback version of the track reveals that there were THREE ascending mandolin strums — only two of which made it to the final cut (let’s call them #1 and #2). The Disc 1 version of “To Life” only gives us a single strum, as has always been the case with these album presentations. But this new 50th Anniversary CD plays a different mandolin strum — the heretofore unreleased and unknown strum #3, which didn’t appear in the film. The previous 30th Anniversary CD used strum #2. I don’t have my LP handy or a copy of the original CD release, but I assume these albums also played strum #2. Was this a deliberate change to the program for the 50th anniversary? Or just an oversight? The Disc 2 Alternate uses the two strums that appear in the film (#1 and #2). The rest of the cue plays out normally on all 3 versions, with the Playback and Alternate versions dropping the ambient noise, claps, stomps, and vocal walla. It’s such a pleasure to hear this dance sequence without all the sound effects and voices. I’ve dreamed of a clean version of this track my whole life! “Street Scene and Riverbank” Disc 3 Track 7. Street Scene And Riverbank :58 As Tevye stumbles away from the bar, this short underscores his playful encounter with the fiddler and the dissolve to the riverbank. “Perchik and Hodel Dance” Disc 3 Track 8. Perchik And Hodel Dance :46 A playful jig for Perchik and Hodel. A soft string statement of the theme plays at the close of the scene. “Tevye’s Monologue” Disc 3 Track 9. Tevye’s Monologue 2:40 Tevye speaks his inner thoughts while Motel and Tzeital wait for a response. “Miracle of Miracles” Disc 1 Track 6. Miracle Of Miracles 2:06 Disc 2 Track 6. Miracle Of Miracles (Alternate) 2:09 Disc 3 Track 10. Miracle Of Miracles (Playback Version) 2:21 The Alternate Version on Disc 2 features the revised ending that was added to cover the camera move at the end of the song in the finished film. The Playback Version on Disc 3 begins with music to underscore Tevye’s realization that he will need to explain the situation to Golde. This leads directly to an extended musical intro. This joyous intro always reminded me of something from E.T. — I love it. “Chava Takes The Book” Disc 3 Track 11. Chava Takes The Book :43 A short underscore cue that accompanies Chava’s meeting with Fyedka. The Russian Church theme introduced during “Tradition” is reprised. “In The Beginning / Tevye’s Dream / Dream Epilogue” Disc 1 Track 7. Tevye’s Dream 6:44 Disc 2 Track 7. Tevye’s Dream (Alternate) 6:55 Disc 3 Track 12. Dream Epilogue :28 The Disc 1 presentation corrects a mistake (artistic choice?) that the 30th Anniversary CD presented, which panned the ghostly rabbi to one side of the stereo field. The presentation is much better here. The Disc 2 Alternate, is essentially the film version — using Topol and Norma Crane’s on-set dialogue as an intro the song. Both versions of the song have occasional micro edits to accommodate the very complicated scene. Both versions also conclude with the Tevye/Golde coda duet that was ultimately cut from the final film. (The Alternate version actually continues another 12 bars.) Disc 3 provides the instrumental epilogue that replaced the cut duet. “Wedding Preparation” Disc 3 Track 13. Wedding Preparation :52 A beautiful piece of underscore that plays as Motel tries on a hat. “Wedding Procession” Disc 1 Track 8. Wedding Procession 1:33 Disc 3 Track 14. Wedding Procession (Playback Version) 2:19 An instrumental march led by a klezmer band. The version on Disc 1 is the arrangement as heard in the film — complete with overdubs from the full orchestra and Isaac Stern’s solo violin. The Disc 3 Playback version is a longer version of the piece played entirely by the klezmer ensemble. “Sunrise, Sunset” Disc 1 Track 9. Sunrise, Sunset 3:52 Disc 2 Track 8. Sunrise, Sunset (Alternate) 3:52 Disc 3 Track 15. Sunrise, Sunset (Playback Version) 3:45 The Disc 2 Alternate features additional overlays from Isaac Stern, many of which appeared in the final film, but some were dialed out. “Wedding Celebration and The Bottle Dance” Disc 1 Track 10. Wedding Celebration And The Bottle Dance 3:56 Disc 2 Track 9. Wedding Celebration And The Bottle Dance (Instrumental) 3:48 This is my absolute favorite track from the entire soundtrack. I was most looking forward to getting an instrumental version of this piece. Disc 2’s Alternate version did not disappoint, presenting the entire celebration without any claps, screams, or crowd noise. I actually had some trouble conforming the 30th Anniversary CD of this cue to the final film. Unlike both versions presented in this 50th Anniversary set, the previous album version may be out of tune or contain some unwanted micro edits. Being a decidedly non-professional audio engineer, I can only speculate on what the issue may be. “Wedding Source #1 / Wedding Source #2” Unreleased These two pieces are played by the wedding’s Klezmer band. They don’t appear on the 50th Anniversary set, and I can only surmise that Mike Matessino and his team were unable to locate a suitable recording. Of course, John Williams could very well have vetoed their inclusion. We may never know. The first of the source cues has the band following Mordcha’s singing in what sounds like a steadily-accelerating traditional song. When a screaming match breaks out between Lazar Wolf and Tevye, the music dies down. The second cue is more interesting and it’s a shame it couldn’t have made it to this set. It sounds like an extended arrangement of the jig that Perchik and Hodel danced to earlier in the film. The music builds to an absolutely joyous pace as the entire wedding breaks into dancing. “First Act Finale (The Pogram)” Disc 1 Track 11. First Act Finale 1:28 John Williams’ original composition which ends the film’s first act on a poignant note of devastation and ruin. A powerful and dramatic orchestral piece. “Entr’acte” Disc 1 Track 12. Entr’acte 1:49 An orchestral medley (“If I Were a Rich Man / To Life / Miracle of Miracles / Sunrise, Sunset”). This piece was tracked onto the film’s end credits — replacing Williams’ intended ending medley. “The Cornfield (Tradition Reprise)” Disc 3 Track 16. The Cornfield – Tradition :48 The film returns from intermission with a brief reprise of “Tradition” over shots of the fall harvest. “Any Day Now” Disc 2 Track 10. Any Day Now (Unused) 2:45 Disc 3 Track 18. Any Day Now (Playback Version) 2:46 An unused song for Perchik to sing to Hodel. From what I gather, the Disc 2 version is a demo. Disc 3’s Playback version featured a different performance and included a chorus. But neither were finished, as the song was ultimately dropped from the final film prior to shooting “Socio-Economic Relationship” Disc 3 Track 17. Socio-Economic Relationship :35 The short, but lovely, instrumental quote of the Perchik/Hodel jig that takes the place of “Any Day Now” in the final film. “Tevye’s Rebuttal” Disc 3 Track 19. Tevye’s Rebuttal 2:35 Just as he did with Tzietal and Motel’s declaration of love, Tevye considers aloud the ramifications of Hodel and Perchik’s engagement. “Do You Love Me?” Disc 1 Track 13. Do You Love Me? 3:15 Disc 2 Track 11. Do You Love Me? (Alternate) 3:13 Disc 3 Track 20. Do You Love Me? (Playback Version) 3:14 This duet left me with a number of unanswered questions. The Playback Version on Disc 3 has such a radically different pace, tone, and performance as compared to the final film, that I believe it must have been re-shot or re-recorded. While certain moments of the final film appear to sync up with the playback track, these moments are fleeting and it’s not long before the two performances are once again out of sync. The Disc 1 and Disc 2 versions match the film. The Alternate gives us a clean orchestral introduction and appears to use Norma Crane’s film delivery of “I suppose I do” to the titular question. “Perchik Arrested” Unreleased The only other major omission on this set, which surely is due to an unacceptable amount of SFX on the film’s stem. This oppressive orchestral cue scores Perchik’s arrest in Kiev while demonstrating in the town square. “Far From The Home I Love” Disc 1 Track 14. Far From The Home I Love 3:02 Disc 2 Track 12. Far From The Home I Love (Alternate) 3:02 Disc 3 Track 21. Far From The Home I Love (Playback Version) 2:27 The Disc 2 Alternate removes the opening and closing dialogue from the track, but is otherwise identical. These versions of the song have a beautiful extended ending that is noticeably different than the more muted film ending, which is more close to the Disc 3 Playback version. However, the Playback version is a completely different performance in a different key and with different, slightly faster, pacing. It doesn’t totally line up with the film, which leads me to believe that when they re-recorded the film version, it may have been timed to the newer, longer edit of the scene. Hard to say for certain. But I’m glad to have this interesting alternative. “Russian Church / Golde Finds Tevye” Disc 3 Track 22. Russian Church 1:36 These are actually two score cues — the first underscores Golde’s ominous walk to the church, once again reprising the Russian Church theme from “Tradition.” The second cue is a short transitional moment that underscores Golde finding Tevye. “Chava Ballet Sequence” Disc 1 Track 15. Chava Ballet Sequence 2:36 Disc 2 Track 13. Chava Ballet Sequence (Alternate) 2:36 The Disc 2 Alternate seems to present a different mix of the same piece. The Alternate includes more texture from the orchestra, including bells, harp, and woodwind flourishes. The strings seem more present in this mix as well. “The Rejection Scene” Disc 1 Track 16. The Rejection Scene 1:40 Disc 2 Track 14. The Rejection Scene (Instrumental) 1:33 The placement of the dialogue seems ever-so-slightly different on Disc 1 than how it appears in the film and the 30th Anniversary CD. And Tevye’s final decision (“No, Chava!”) and the punctuating blasts of “Tradition” seem to come in just a beat or two early, as compared to the film and the Instrumental version on Disc 2. A slight discrepancy in timing that may have been done to give some space between the impactful horn blast and Tevye’s first “NO.” “Anatevka” Disc 1 Track 17. Anatevka 3:43 Disc 2 Track 15. Anatevka (Alternate) 3:42 Disc 3 Track 23. Anatevka (Playback Version) 2:44 Disc 1 and Disc 2 feature different introductions to the song. Disc 1 gives us a studio version of Motel and the Rabbi’s dialogue, while Disc 2’s Alternate plays Williams’ underscore on its own. The Alternate also gives us the the film version of the dialogue that precedes the song and Mordcha’s lament (“People who pass through Anatevka…”) When the choir and orchestra swell and Norman Jewison’s emotional tableaus begin playing, that’s where the major difference can be heard. The Disc 1 version brings in the full choir, including those singing in a higher octave, while the Alternate plays closer to the film, with only the lower voices singing. The Playback Version on Disc 3 offers a more somber and downbeat performance, with the various characters listing their belongings in a different order than the finished film. This version also drops an orchestral passage that underscores the last few glimpses of the tableaus, including the mournful Rabbi. “Exodus” Disc 3 Track 24. Exodus (Excerpt) 1:30 A low, wordless choir sings the melody of “Anatevka” as a mournful dirge. Presumably due to excessive SFX, the first :20 of this cue are not included. “Finale” Disc 1 Track 18. Finale 1:52 Disc 2 Track 16. Finale (Alternate) 2:05 The Disc 2 Alternate is the film version, which includes the Fiddler’s first scratchings at the pleasant simple tune and a slightly different variation of the melody that closes the scene. The powerful End Credits music crashes in and is the same on both versions. “Fiddler On The Roof (Instrumental)” Disc 3 Track 25. Fiddler On The Roof (Instrumental) 1:00 - END This is the second half of the solo violin / flute duet that opens the film. Again, I’m not sure if the second section was meant to score something specific, or if it’s just a reworked variation on the first half of the cue. But it ends the playlist on a nice coda. —- Once again, my deepest thanks and admiration to Mike Matessino and everyone involved in bringing this extraordinary release to life.

You must admit musically they are at least similar? No?

Before this thread gets locked, I would like to post a random musing I had about this track on twitter the other day: Is the military motif from Last Crusade when Indy has just jumped onto the tank (1:25 into "On The Tank") the SAME MOTIF that is played (much slower) during Raiders opening trek through Peruvian jungle? To clarify: the ominous, searching motif from 1m1 “The Jungle” in Raiders vs the military sounding snare-drum accented march right after Colonel Vogel’s dramatic rise in 10m3/11m1 “On The Tank” from Crusade.

I got it! 🙂

Fascinating and very throughly assembled list, Jay. Amazed I hadn't seen that before. Any chance you made similar grids for Star Wars and Empire?

First of all, thank you for all your hard work on this. It's fascinating to watch these alternate versions. And secondly, do you have any way of sharing the Symphonic Forces videos? I'd love to watch them. I was able to find GoodMusician's forum post elsewhere on the internet - but all the links are dead. Thanks again for your videos!

oooooh sounds interesting! Thanks datameister. This all sounds great!

Wow - I'm not having a good day. Sorry. I can't read music too well, either. But it should be interesting to hear these two cues. Let's hope someone can do that! Thanks Jason By the way ~ the film ending to "death of Kazim" as Indy rides off ends earlier than the bootlegged cue ("The other jones"). Was that done editorially? Insert A is 14 bars, - much closer to the 12 bar film ending (Fix for bar 65) - but Mr. Takis seems to imply that it would replace an earlier insert which was only 6 bars. As I said, I can't read music well enough to answer this question myself. Could the 14 bar "Insert A" be the bootlegged cue ("the other jones") and the 12 bar "Fix for Bar 65" could be the slightly shorter film ending of the cue?

Ah, I see. So we have no idea, musically, what they sound like... Perhaps more "Raiders March" stuff? Perhaps more "Nazi" stuff? Perhaps an unused segment of "birds of charlamagne" that was misplaced? Ok, I'm reaching with that last one....

Do we know what those cues are? I thought they were just the "Raiders Fanfare 1 & 2" from the bootleg and the "Nazi Theme" Insert for when Vogel descends into the tank. But now, looking at your website, it seems those three inserts were already accounted for. What are these new inserts?

"Why am I not going under water?......DEAR GOD WHY AM I NOT GOING UNDER WATER!!!?" - T (Tobias)

Great work Data - as always! Can't wait to hear more of your stuff.

MINE TOO! That was the greatest run of episodes I've ever seen! (Anyone else who chimes in on this, no spoilers please.)