Adam S.
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Posts posted by Adam S.
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It would be nice to lay out all of the love theme he's ever written. There's a tremendous amount of variety when I think about it. Even something like Pete'N'Tillie, which is one of my favorites to play on the piano. Its quite lovely. Or Missouri Breaks, ET and Me, Jane Eyre, etc., etc. All beautiful in their own way and yet completely different from one another.
Han and Leia might be favorite though that's hard to say.
- Adam
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There’s also something like Battle of the Heroes which is almost completely thematic. War of the Worlds has action music which is very structured quite often although not at all thematic. The Chess Match in Harry Potter is a unique action piece with its use of percussion. Taken all together and including your examples and one‘s we‘re leaving off, there’s a lot of variety depending on the type of scene. So I think that suggests that he is willing to go in a lot of directions depending on if the film provides something unique in terms of the subtext that music can fill in. But I see your point about the changes and I think there are probably several factors that contribute to it including evolution in his technique, the way films are edited, the way he tries to get heard through the sound effects (more high end trumpet punctuations), etc. But there’s a tremendous amount of musical complexity in these kinds of pieces that you’re complaining about though that’s probably small consolation. For me, this kind of music isn’t as immediately accessible but, at the same time, the quality of the writing is still so high that I can still enjoy it on a some level - particularly if I give it more time. But that’s just me.
- Adam
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There also seems to be pressure to one-up the first film, and I'm speaking in general about sequels, with thrills and then that tends to leave less time for things like character development. The Indiana Jones films kind of have this character but, nonetheless, I tend to put all 3 on an equal plane in terms of my enjoyment (with Raiders being intellectually the best film). The score to Raiders is more "raw" and down to earth as well.
- Adam
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That's true, I'm just saying that even though somebody is dressed up as Yoda, JW probably wouldn't quote Yoda's Theme there if not for the fact that the scene was being played in a comedic way. For example, in SpaceCamp there's a scene where sombody is talking to the little kid, pretending like he is Ben Kenobi and JW could have used the force theme if he wanted to be clever but it would have been too self-referential in the context of the way the scene plays out IMO. As it would be to have a Close Encounters quote for the alien spaceship (its pretty clearly the Skull theme as othes have pointed out).
- Adam
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Well it is interesting that Speilberg (I think) said he set out to make a film that was closer to Raiders because I think you're right that its closer to Last Crusade. Although, again, I think KotCs changes tone much more than Last Crusade. The first 3 were all internally more consistent IMO but, anyway, the point is Speilberg somehow forgot that Raiders managed to both fun and relatively serious (compared to the latter 2).
- Adam
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For me, Last Crusade managed to have some heart and inspiration behind it in a way that KotCS failed to do. There was something "alive" about Last Crusade that I didn't feel with KotCS though I agree that the films have some of the same flaws, especially in the use of too-broad humor, slapstick and so forth. But Last Crusade seemed more competently paced and more even in its overall tone, among other things. If you're going to have that kind of humor, at least its in a film that establishes a fun, colorful spirit in the opening backstory sequence and remains more consistent in that approach throughtout the film.
And I think its fair to hold a sequel up to the standard of its predecessors to some extent; not in an inflexible, punish-all-deviation kind of way but in the sense of wanting a film to do justice to its legacy and allow us to believe we're entering the same world established in the other films. I think that's fair though people will obviously differ about how well that's pulled off.
- Adam
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Its a definite similarity but I can't believe that its deliberate. The same would go for a Close Encounters quote. I've never had the impression that JW is self-referential like that as though he were trying to give a little inside joke to his fans or something. Its not his style. Of course there's the Yoda theme in ET but that's because, I think, the scene was trying to be witty and comedic and the theme only comes in right at the end to punctuate the humor of it.
- Adam
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Maybe Mac gives it back to him (off camera of course) when he says he's a double agent and that helps explain why Indy instantly trusts him again despite the fact that he almost died because of Mac's betrayal. Just kidding.
All this nitpicking and I'm reminded that nothing is more unrealistic than an Ark which melts people's faces, hearts being taken out of a still living body, a grail that gives immortality, an alien spaceship landing on earth, etc.. I realize that's not a story inconsistency and not the same thing but still, I have to mention it anyway.
The one example of sloppy direction in TOD that's always bothered me is how on the raft Willie, Short Round and Indy are sitting in different places depending on the camera shot. Most people probably wouldn't notice it but if you do, it definitely takes a person out of the movie.
- Adam
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The flood motif is very minor, I agree. But the Stones motif is played in at least one other scene, when Indy is telling the legend to Willie on the first night of their trek.
Ok, that's interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. I went back and watched that scene and indeed its the same motif. Somehow I never made the connection even though I've seen the movie way too many times.
- Adam
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I think its all kind of blurry. There's no clear lines on what is a theme or a motif. It seems to me there are times that he introduces melodic ideas for a particular sequence just to give the scene something he thinks it needs and wouldn't think to use it again. The flood sequence seems like one of those. Its a motif I suppose in the sesne that The Basket Game has a motif and Belly of the Steal Beast has a motif and so forth. But its not thematic really in that he wouldn't necessarily reference it if there was another flood (as there was actually in KotCS).
The Sankara Stones have something of a motif during the scene where Indy takes them and we get the big choir statement. But I don't remember any other moment that uses the same melodic idea. I also glanced through Takis' analysis and didn't see where he refences that Williams used it again. But maybe I'm forgetting something.
- Adam
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Yeah, I don't think there's a big change. One could more easily fault JW for not having a theme for Han Solo, afterall he's a much bigger character than Elsa. But the point of course is that it wasn't needed. Its more a function of how the movie is directed as far as I can tell. Cross of Coronado to take one of Ray's examples, , very much needed a theme, IMO, just because of the way it was highlighted in the backstory and the way the camera cuts away to show the cross in the action scene and so forth.
Taking the most recent action music in Indy4, Academe has a recurring motif that is only for that sepiece as does the Snake Pit. The Jungle Chase, despite being very unevenly directed, has it a bit in the second half of the cue in terms of the motif in the bass that drives the scene forward. Other action music is so brief that it wouldn't have made much sense to introduce a new melodic idea. And that's just his most recent movie.
Its also worth noting that Last Crusade is very rich with thematic and melodic ideas, probably more so than Raiders, a film that was during his so-called Golden Age Period, though I wouldn't say he got better in 1989. Again, it seems like more a reflection of the requirements of the films.
- Adam
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Home Alone 2 is the closest JW has ever come to scoring the same film twice. Of course there are plenty of differences but the two stories follow the same exact formula in a very deliberate, unapologetic kind of way. I was initially disappointed by the similarities in the scores but quickly came to realize that the approach was appropriate to the director's vision of Home Alone as a kind of Christmas tradition with all of the same elements thrown in.
But I like the new musical material and the reworking of old material like the setting the trap sequences and main titles, for example. Its fascinating to hear how subtle changes in the tone of the movie affects his process the second time around.
- Adam
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I agree a lot with MrScratch in terms of there needing to be an element of realism. Things have to make sense not in the context of the real world (of course Indiana Jones stories never aproximated the real world) but within the context of the world that we're supposed to enter on screen. There were times in KotCS when the comedy was played way too broadly (the student/teacher conversation in the library) or the action too campy. And the tone changes from scene to scene so that its not consistent.
- Adam
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There's the scene where they kiss in Venice which most composers would be tempted to score I would think. But I see it a bit like how the shark music doens't play when there's a fake shark in Jaws. JW doesn't want to mislead the audience and that's sort of the way he approached her character. The closest thing to giving her a musical identity is the look she gives Indy before he breaks through the wall in the catacombs. Its very brief but it seems to foreshawdow the fact that she can't be trusted and the music accomnpanies it accordingly.
I've always preferred Willie's theme. It feels to me like he wanted to give the theme a showtune (or showgirl I suppose) vibe.
- Adam
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I used to have a recording of the original recording which was called Satellite Celebration. I don't know remember what the occasion was but the idea was that the orchestra was performing with choir as well with singers that were performing by satellite on a big TV or something. Song for Peace is an adaptation of that piece except without the choir and extra soloists. It sounds kind of naked if you're used to the original version which feels much more dramatic and complete.
- Adam
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There's a tendency both ways to stereotype people who have a different view about a movie and I've been on both sides of the debate. For example, I like Last Crusade, so when people who don't like it criticize it, its tempting to think that they are needlessly picking it apart, taking it too seriously, as this thread raises, being overly pedantic and so forth.
However, I didn't particularly like KOTCS and the temptation is to now think that people who like it are lowering their standards, naive or something like that. The realiy is that the line between buying into a film experience and not buying into it is probably a lot thinner than either side wants to recognize so its better to not take our differences seriously even if we take our movies seriously (which I don't think of myself as doing even in the case of KOTCS).
- Adam
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I take it King Kong doesn't count as a casualty.
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I've enjoyed this season but there's been a nagging sense that things are getting to convoluted. The loyalties and alliances have become so blurred, I sometimes feel like there's crucial plot points I'm missing. Or maybe its something about trying to keep track of all of the indidvidual motivations and how they cross one another. There's less a sense of having someone to root for though I'm sure that was the whole idea - to create complicated, flawed characters who are trying to do good within their own messed-up universe. I should have seen it coming since the so-called bad guys from the beginning were called "The Others" which was probably an attempt at metaphor for the way we create tribal loyalties against whatever the other group is out there, who are usually not understood. Not that the Others look that great now but we can kind of see how they are the ones concerned for the welfare of the island and looking for a spiritual purpose which probably puts them more on the "right" side than the other protagonists were able to see. Though an explantion of the kidnapping of chilcren is in order unless I missed that.
- Adam
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I like to think of it as having a kind of upper class romantic sophistication. It had to grow on me a bit as well actually except for How Can I Remember which is one of my favorite JW songs.
My worst would probably be some of his 60s comedy scores. Of his more famous scores, Poseiden Adventure has a couple highlights which are incredible but otherwise is something I hardly listen to.
- Adam
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Interestingly the scene doesn't really have any action unless you count them slowly sinking. But the music works great, scoring the comedy of the dialog as much as anything.
- Adam
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KotSC has some scenes that were as campy as King Solomen's Mines. KotSC is better and I might have been pleasantly surprised if KotSC was a sequel to King Solomen's Mines and not Indiana Jones. Unfortunately, it doesn't live up to its own legacy IMO.
- Adam
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Its worth noting that Speilberg tinkers with Williams scores in most every film of his as well. Lost World was one of the worst but even Schindler's List and ET have some tracking. Of course I'm not suggesting he deserves Lucas' reputation in that regard but its still worse than one would hope.
I don't really blame Williams for rearranging previous music since I imagine that's what he was told to do in the same way I don't blame him when he pays attention to the temp track. He knows whose film it is and though I'm sure he tries to "educate" his boss when he can, he's ultimately a hired hand trying to satsify the vision of the director and Lucas as well in this case.
- Adam
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That's interesting since if anything is more repetitive than Accidental Tourist, Presumed Innocent would be a good candidate.
By the way, for those who have gotten it already, what's the alternate opening titles (or was that answered already?). I can't think of one cue that wasn't alreday in the movie off the top of my head.
- Adam
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You can see the back of his head if I recall correctly which is different than if the music can feed of the characters' reactions. I'm pointing out the role of having more time in the caves and the fact we get less music that people like. That's true independent of whether one likes these scenes or not. Personally, I thought it made the film drag more in the last hour but that's not my point so much as to point out the way the film limits JW's opportunities.
- Adam
The Indy 4 craze is slowly coming to an end, but how do you feel?
in General Discussion
Posted
In the spirit of too much time on my hands : here's an article fresh off the Associated Press newswire :
(AP) - Cambridge, MA June 19, 2008
A team of researchers at Harvard University released a report today that claims people’s perceptions of what art is good or bad depends on many factors including a person’s natural disposition, their background, peer influence and their level of exposure to different types of art. This study overturns the previous conventional wisdom that the objective measurement of what is good and worthy resided in Joey, a prolific poster at JWFan.com.
Professor Eli Tist, the lead researcher on the study, remarked, “I fully expected that the results of our research would confirm that Joey was uniquely anointed to have the final say on what is good in movies and music. He seems so sure of himself and, lets face it, Attack of the Clones really does suck. But our research was impeccable and now I’ll have to adjust myself to the idea that Joey is just another guy with an opinion. Its tough to swallow.”
When contacted by telephone, Joey was dismissive of the new report, “These are the same eggheads who would tell us we evolved from monkeys. I’m not surprised they would also try to tell us that someone can love the score to Memoirs of a Geisha and not be an ingrate.”
Artists who have come under criticism by Joey were quick to react favorably to the new report. John Williams, the Academy Award winning film composer, said, “I was always skeptical of Joey. There’s 6 billion people in the world and a middle aged guy living in Arkansas is The Anointed One? I just didn‘t see God having a sense of humor like that. Plus, the guy can‘t even appreciate the greatness of my score to Schindler‘s List. What does he want, something a little more cheerful?”
When told of Williams’ comments, Joey responded, “Look, I was as surprised as anybody when I realized my tastes represented complete objectivity. He may not agree but I’ll continue to heap scorn on bad movies, bad scores and differing opinions. The Good Fight continues.”
Dr. Tist was adamant that their findings would hold up. “I understand this won’t be accepted by everybody but this is good news for anybody who appreciates a diversity of opinions.”
As for Williams, though pleased with the new study, he says the criticism still takes a toll. “Its much bigger than Joey. It’s a whole group of fans who go from blockbuster to blockbuster, hungry for more bombast. Its frustrating. Its to the point that they’re disliking my score to Lincoln before I’ve written a note. Maybe when Lincoln gets shot I’ll throw in a full choir version of the Force Theme backed up by an 120 piece orchestra. That might be what it takes.”