Adam

That's true - it makes a big difference how the music is presented in the film. This film could be frustrating from a musical standpoint if I'm noticing a lot of music edits and such. In that case the soundtrack could be a much more rewarding first exposure to the larger score anyway. - Adam

I?ve noticed that subtle differences in melody and a different arrangement can make a big difference in how I react to a theme. The main theme in Amistad is very similar to The Patriot main theme and the Civil Rights music in American Journey. I like the Amistad theme, The Civil Rights theme is one of my favorites and The Patriot main theme wears out its welcome real fast for me though I wouldn't call it the worst. Its too easy to go to the sixties to pick a worst but, nonetheless, I'll say the John Goldfarb theme must be somewhere down there on my list. - Adam

Actually, it doesn't quite mean the same thing so John's statement seems fine. I can't remember the exact rules about the double negative but it if it forbids statements like that, I say ignore the rule. As for the topic, if the movie came out the same day as the soundtrack, I?d watch the movie first. Ideally, I like to experience the music with the movie one time when everything is new. But like many others, there?s no way I could not buy the soundtrack right away (my own double negative civil disobedience). And with this movie there?s still going to be a lot of new music to experience in the movie and not on the soundtrack. - Adam

One of the least most listened to for me. I like the piano track the most. The main title is pretty good. Earthquake sound effects on a soundtrack album are horrible but I won't blame JW for that. - Adam

It might be the fun piece for Greivous that JW mentioned in the interview although the ending obviously wouldn't fit that. And he called it percussive, so I don't know. It is built more in a kind of rythmic sense as opposed to a strong melodic idea so that might be what he meant. I like it but its probably not very representative of what most of the score is going to sound like. - Adam

That?s interesting. A new "fun", percussive piece for Grievous? Must be the context of the scene. He mentions 3 or 4 new ?pieces? wich include a couple lamentations. Its not clear if he means this in the sense of new thematic material or just in the sense of something like the The Asteroid Field being a new piece. And, not surprisingly, he mentions revisiting the old themes even more than in any other film. He also addresses one of the criticisms that gets repeated maybe as much as any other - that he only scores the obvious emotion that?s on the screen. He says he does this often but that sometimes its necessary to to score the ?undertext? of emotion that isn?t actually on the screen, gving an example, I assume, from Anakin and Padme's encounter in the movie. - Adam

I was surprised to like this film quite a bit. Maybe partly for that reason, I like the score a lot. Its not music I would imagine having wide appeal and parts of it feel very dated. But I still like the love theme, particularly in the final tracks, and some of the quasi-classical stuff is interesting. The source cues don?t really fit with the rest of the score and its hard to imagine that happening now-a-days where the main film composer would write an instrumental song for the radio in the background. Seems like a very inefficient use of a composer?s time when there?s not exactly a shortage of already written music on the radio but, anyway, very nice score. - Adam

There are of course some good unreleased cues in the movie and not on the soundtrack. But I?d say there is more good music on the soundtrack, not in the film. Track 9 and track 11 are a couple of my favorites and are largely cut out of the movie. The scene I regard as the most horrible is a scene - can?t remember where exactly - with a wide-pan shot of the Pitt character traveling and we get a view of the mountains in the distance. Its one of those epic journey montages and it didn?t have any music. With JW?s music it would be possible to experience this scene and be pulled into it. Without music, it feels like a National Geographic documentary or something. His main theme could conjure up the feeling of the epic, perilous journey - it gives the movie some heart and a sense of scale and that?s completely missing. There are other examples of music getting cut out, the early scene where he?s bleeding is one I remember but there are others. And some of the later scenes between Pitt and the Dalai Lama are almost certainly rescored - where we get a very conservative wandering Asian flute of some sort. I think track 9 was probably orginally, in part, for one of those scenes. And these are scenes that go to the heart of what the movie is about and I think JW naturally scored it accordingly with what would have been very poignant music (around the 3 minute mark of track 9 with the subtle but emotional piano and cello playing off of eachother). As far as my final comment goes, I?ll be more exact and say that with this film it appears that Annaud didn't trust the music. I gave a couple examples that lead me to say that and there are others in this film. Don?t know about Enemy at the Gates. - Adam

I can?t really help other than to say that this score is a mess and making sense of it seems like more trouble than its worth. I get the impression the director wasn?t happy with this score because there?s a lot of music on the CD that wasn?t used in the film. In some cases the scenes are left with no music at all (to really horrible effect in one spot in particular) and in other cases the music seems to have been rewritten so as to be virtually invisible. I mentioned Far and Away being one of the best experiences in a theater and this movie was easily one of the worst. There?s still music in the film and some really good music. But when JW says that Spielberg is someone who trusts music, this would be an example, I think, of the opposite kind of director. It may be possible to piece everything together and come up with a reasonable interpretation of what music from the CD was supposed to go where. I've never done it though and it would take some real patience and effort. - Adam

Its a nice contrast only hearing the melody in the ringtone thingy and then being able to hear the fuller arrangement in the commercial. The other choir line underneath - kind of dissident at times - makes a big difference for the better. Its the kind of weightier, darker atmosphere that everyone has been expecting and that gets me particularly excited to hear the whole score. - Adam

I don?t see any of this discussion as as a slight on Williams, to tell you the truth. We all know that temp tracks are used quite commonly in Hollywood. And it makes sense that the composer would feel obligated to pay attention to it, so as to please the people who have hired him and not get his score thrown out. And we can never know when is a director or producer particularly wedded to a certain idea existing in the film or a particular scene in which case the composer doesn't have a whole lot of choice in the matter. So I think that?s just part of the job that they do. When someone can incorporate sombody else?s musical idea and change it in a way that makes it fit the film and the larger score, I see that as impressive. Its still JW?s music and it still sounds like JW and I don?t think anybody has said he plagerized. The title of the thread says "influenced by Doyle's Henry V" which I think is true in several places in the score. Sort of like Star Wars is still a great score even if its influenced by its temptrack. - Adam

I wish I could remember where I read it but I do recall a discussion at around the time the movie was out exactly of this nature where the temp track was talked about for Jurassic Park. Doyle?s Henry V was definitely one that was mentioned, I think, for several scenes. The sick dinasaur scene is the most clear but I think resemblances can be heard in other parts of the score as well. Ned steals the Embryo was probably tracked with his own Conspirators from JFK. Another example would be The Patriot where you can hear what was used as a temp track in many places. Moricone?s Once Upon in America, for example, in one cue and JW?s own Born on the Fourth of July in at least one other spot. - Adam

You mean authentic Irish music isn?t backed up with a large orchestra and cool French-horn licks like in the end credits? Its obviously not trying to be authenticly Irish. It evokes the spirit of Irish music as it exists through the prism of Western culture. Just like I doubt he will write authentic Asian music for Memoirs of a Geisha and luckily he didn?t try to write authentic African music (or American for that matter) for Amistad. This is Hollywood, afterall. And that?s especially true for a film like Far and Away which is more Hollywood than most. Ron Howard was understandably very praising of the score so I doubt he wanted authentic Irish music either. - Adam

Far and Away was one of the best experiences I?ve had in a theater experiencing the music. Unlike now-a-days when the album comes out early and I?m physically incapable of not listening to the score before the movie comes out, I was pretty much in the dark about the music to this movie. Its a lot of fun when the music has that much room in a movie to shine and the music felt fresh and very effective. The film is pure melodrama so it demands a lot of the music and JW came through with some very evokative and exciting music. - Adam

I'm not sure if this is in part a resonse to what I said but, if so, you may be missing the point. The idea is that to understand what kind of score we're getting, we have to look at the film. The conspiracy theme, for example, tends to be a part of the album that drags when I listen to it. However, when I look at the scenes, like Anakin talking to Jango Fett, I don't think its bad underscore at all. Its just that the uncinematic nature of the direction and acting, means the music isn't going to be as compelling as a lot of other Star Wars music is - at least for my ears. Still, like you, I like this score so maybe we're not really disagreeing here. - Adam

The main difference with the Original Trilogy scores is the removal of the sense of wonder and magic in which these scores used to bath in. If the stories and characters don't radiate them (remember, this is not about Luke Skywalker, a farm boy, discovering a whole new fantastic world), how the heck is the music going to ooze the same kind of emotions? ---------------- Alex Cremers That?s more or less my attitude as well. The parts of the album that feel inferior are usually scenes where JW is scoring a stilted dialog sequence and its not at all clear to me how he could have improved on the music without getting in the way of the scene. In addition, you have a potentially rich musical sequence that was scored with TPM muisic and no new underscore. So at a minimum, the score feels incomplete and uneven. As far as matters that go to the question of JW?s effort, specifics are usually hard to come by. In the past, the kiss scene has been raised as an example and I think that?s legitimate criticism potentially. The clone army being scored with droid music could be another. Beyond that, a fair number of people just don?t like listening to it but that?s something that happens with every score that?s ever been written so it doesn?t really tell us much. I happen to enjoy this album quite a bit, though as always, there are certain tracks that stand out more than others and some tracks that get skipped quite a bit. Its not as consistently compelling as TESB, to take the most notorious example, but as Alex suggested, how could it be given the movie he was scoring? - Adam

I think the score holds up very well in the movie, although the quality of the sound production leaves a lot to be desired. I suppose it seems a little less polished than something he might do today in terms of how it works as a score, but that?s a pretty minor quibble. Overall he gets the atmosphere right and the love theme, in particular, is very poignant in the film. But I agree with everyone who likes this music - one of my favorites as well. Ray asked about other scores with that ?English feel? and I?ve always thought Angela?s Ashes bears some relation to Jane Eyre - track 3 of Angela?s Ashes, for example, and other parts of the score. Course its not a film that takes place in England so its maybe something more general that I?m thinking of when I compare the two. But there is some similarity there anyway. - Adam

I don?t know the details but a settlement was reached on behalf of consumers by the state of New York against the record companies. The settlement means that the record comapanies didn?t have to admit that there was any price fixing but they agreed to some sort of back payment to consumers. And I don?t think there was any change in prices afterword so that would lend support to the idea that record companies don?t need to conspire or do anything illegal in order to screw us out of our money with high prices. Its in their nature and in fact its the law that they maximize profit. The best thing that came from that, and again I don?t know the details, but there was some agreement I think that the companies make themselves more available to be audited so that artists can know if they are getting their fair share of royalies. So its a small victory for the right of artists and consumers and a small defeat against corporations which natually would rather operate without public scrutiny. - Adam

Well, if a hundred credible sources came forward and said this movie was a disaster, we?d still all stand in line because we had to see for ourselves. So from that point of view, and speaking of evil laughs, Lucas has already won. Furthermore, he can take pleasure knowing that even many of his harshest critics are still interested enough in his movies that they comb over all of the various pre-release details, helping him to sustain public intrigue before its eventual release. But, at any rate, I just want a compellingly made movie. Evil people can laugh, Ewoks can join the Wookie insurrection - I don?t much care about that stuff. It would just be nice to have a well-executed movie and an in-tact score. I?ll go in with an open mind and hope for the best. But at the very least, I?ll be hearing what should be some great new Williams music to his final Star Wars installment. That should be memorable, even if all else fails. - Adam

Though I agree with some of the comments, I'd say, if anything, its closer to true to say that Goldsmith scores the emotions of the audience to a certain extent and its Williams who scores the emotion of the film. For example, King Solomen?s Mines and Raiders of the Lost Ark are interesting to compare. Although the former is obviosly a lot worse film, you still get some insight into their approaches because King Solomen?s Mines is so cleary patterned over Raiders. For Williams, we get the most heraldic statement of the main theme when we get a shot of Indiana Jones boarding the other ship and its accompanied by cheering onlookers and a salute from his friend. With King Solomen?s Mines, we get more or less the same type of heraldic and heroic theme everytime the good guy escapes or does something good, even if nobody in the film is reacting or anything. The heroism is played up more by Goldsmith than it is in the film. So its pushing the audiences buttons in a way that, while effective in many respects and maybe even the saving grace of a bad film, is less specific to the direction and the performances of the film. I think this kind of thing applies to a lot of their films. One can argue about which approach is better but Williams? music almost always has some sort of emotional content rooted in the film. Maybe one could say that Goldsmith pays more attention to the emotion in the sense of the broad spirit of the film, at the expense of some of the specific emotional subtleties. I think that might be true though its hard to generalize and I?m by no means an expert on Goldsmith?s career. As far as psychological music goes, I?m not sure what that means exactly but Nixon, Images, etc, have music that has a more interior feel where its supposed to be connecting to the character?s state of mind. So its more, again, dependent on the movie or scene - he adapts himself to that style if necessary. And its not just that Williams concetrates on visuals because pacing and editing is really a rythmic thing below the surface, and that?s something that JW brings out better than anybody that I've heard and seen, IMO. - Adam

I guess I was guilty of reading into Chris?s original post. As I go back and look at it, he refers to Hollywood?s ?world views? and mentions the ?political slant that typical Hollywood loves?. In a fairly vague post, its hard not to read liberalism into that but I?ll stand corrected if that wasn?t what he was saying. However nothing that Chris said after that really falls under the category of a world view or a political slant which still leaves me wondering what exactly was meant with those phrases. Is voting for the equavalent of the Eagles (the loser), a ?political slant? or a ?world view?? Furthermore, many Oscar winning films like Lord of the Rings, Titanic, etc. would fall under the category of the Patriots as would pretty much every film that JW has won for. So it doesn?t seem like a valid argument. Of course there are films that win that aren?t widely seen by the public but would it be better if the academy put their finger to the wind and measured public opinion or box office take before voting for a winner? I?d say they already do to a certain extent and it would be better if they didn?t at all. Later he says : ?They pick people who haven?t won before, even if their work doesn?t deserve it. This is a political ideal? ?this guy won too much, this guy has never won and probably never will, so lt?s give it to him.? Or ?I liked this movie, so I?ll vote for this even though I know little about it.? This is insider Hollywood politics. No doubt a factor but its not a ?world view? or even any sort of consistent ?political slant?. So, again, one is left to wonder why those words were used in his initial post. I?m in favor of not making things personal and I?d be tempted to come to Chris?s defense on that score if he didn?t do the hypocritical thing of calling his detractors, ?bozos?, and saying that anybody who disagrees is ?blind and/or naive?. That?s not exactly keeping to the issues and not even a fair assessment of the strength of the argument, IMO. - Adam

You guys are all playing into Morlock?s sinister plans! He attempted to make an example of the power of faith by guarenteeing victory. When his plan hit a snag (JW lost) he had to find an out that nonetheless would be a testament to the power of faith (or lack of it in this case). By criticizing him for his lack of faith you?re all reinforcing the underlying assumption that Morlock is at the center of the world, controlling world events and rendering the academy utterly meaningless and devoid of free-will! You think you?re bashing him but you?re really feeding his ego like never before! - Adam, in a rare over-the-top moment

I agree Presumed Innocent is repetitive but I like it for its quietly dark and suspensful mood. Its the kind of movie that in the hands of a lesser composer would have had lots of drones and would have been fairly non-thematic. But JW?s score is remarkably musical. The main piano based theme seems to function at every instance we?re made to wonder who might be guilty of the crime in the movie - kind of like the musical wheels turning asking who did it. Overall, a very classy and effective score. I love the finale in Accidental Tourist. Its almost ET-like in its reliance on underscore to carry the final minutes of the movie, with a couple big swings in emotion as the director goes for a surprisingly big pay-off. We get the musical range of a kind of tragic sadness to something very hopeful and redemptive at the very end in a matter of a couple minutes. Everything before it is kind of slow and dialog driven with sparce underscore but, again, very effectively done as usual. The end credits I love also, especially when the lush piano work comes in. - Adam

There's probably a variety of factors but a major problem, I think, is just ignorance. People are voting for something they seem to know very little about so they?re highly susceptible to whatever the current zeitgeist is. Its to the credit of Kaczmarek that he recognizes this factor in his own success. Its kind of funny that the rules have to be continually changed to adjust for this problem. When voters kept voting for animated musicals, they created a different category for that until that phase of Hollywood ran its course. Recently, a score like Ray was deemed inelligible. There?s really no good reason to do such a thing except as a way of preventing the Fame scenario where people vote for Ray Charles instead of the score. I haven?t even seen the movie or heard the score and I assume it probably wasn?t a top 5 score but, on principle, its a very unfair rule. So if you have a voting block that can?t make that very basic distinction between songs and score, its fair to be kind of cynical with regard to people voting. It doesn?t even have to be anything personal against JW, although maybe there's some envy there or something as a small factor - I don't know. - Adam

You?re defining things a lot broader than liberal. ?Life issue?, for example, covers just about any serious movie that?s every been made. Il Postino is a harmless, romantic comedy from Italy that won best score. Fame had its own reasons for winning. Bad ones but different. But, again, the politics seems like a minor to non-existant issue if you look at all of the past winners for best score. What you say might apply more for best picture category. - Adam