Adam

Pelter, do you know these scores? I'm not the biggest Tomorrow Never Dies advocate here (you want to hear a great Bond score, check out You Only Live Twice), you seem to dismiss these scores way to easily. What do you mean The Fury is only "a 1978 horror score"? So what? It's a fabulous score, and it has something The Empire Strike Back doesn't have.....intelligence. The Fury is a very smart score. The whole thing runs 55 minutes in a 2 hour movie (and not all of that 55 minutes was even used). It's very well spotted and the music is very effective when it's needed. TESB on the other hand is scored wall to wall, and isn't very effficient in the film. Sometimes scenes can play quite well without music. Wisely, some cues were "dialed out" in the film. Having all this music can make for a good listen on the soundtrack album, but from a film making standpoint it demonstrates a lack of vision on the film makers part. They should know when music is needed and when it's not. Neil Its probably bad form for me to respond to this since you were directing it to Peltzer and I've already posted half a book in this thread. But this really is going to be my last day for awhile (I promise) so hopefully I can be forgiven. And though I disagree to a certain extent, I appreciate that you explained your position in a way that was very on point. Generally, I'm left wondering where people are coming from when they declare something to be better. I see the danger in having a lot of music in the TESB because its demanding a lot of attention from the audience and a potential loss in "efficiency". On the other hand, the movie as I see it, seemed to be calling out for wall-to-wall music so that the criticism, if accurate, would be a more appropriate criticism for the way the film was directed and edited and not so much the way it was spotted, I think. When I look at the scenes where music was left out, and having the benefit of hearing the material that was supposed to appear, I came to the opposite conclusion - that the scenes would seem more compelling with the music left in. So, in a sense, I would have liked more music in the movie and would have even considered it a more intelligent choice given the movie JW was working with. In general, I think that for people who really like the movie, the experience will be enhanced. Others who buy into it less might find the music wearying. But I think his job is to score the movie as is and let its virtues or faults fall where they may. But your point of view is certainly legitimate and I could be making a wrong judgement about this. But, either way, there is still an enourmous amount of intelligence that goes into the score for TESB - creating the right thematic identification, the right pacing, the right sound and texture, capturing the overall arc and feel of the film as well as all the individual scenes and the minutia of detail within the scene, etc. And The Fury has all of this, too of course, which would make it difficult for me to make a judgement about one or the other being better. But, again, I do appreciate that you explained where you were coming from and sorry to go on so long, yet again. - Adam

I think that a lot of people, maybe most people, are looking for "independent coherancy" when they judge a score. And I'm arguing that perhaps we shouldn't when it comes to film scores. Its partly a matter of semantics, you're right, but I think it makes sense to have a separate evaluation of something's value as music as compared with its value as a film score. A film score can be evaluated on the terms with which it was created, as a contribution to a larger product, the film. That's not to say "independent coherancy" isn't important since we're not collecting soundtracks as mere academic studies but to enjoy and listen to. Its just that a fair evaluation of a film score shouldn't take this into account because its not really fair to the composer. For example, its not JW's fault that Presumed Innocent is a tiny, dialog driven movie with very little emotional range where music has to play a role that might make it less impressive in pure musical terms. So, in evaluating his effort, his film film score, I look at the movie and I try to judge what were the requirements and limitations of the movie and judge, as best as I can, how well he satisfied the needs of the film. I just think that its better to separate the criteria somehow and having a stricter definition what constitutes the value of a film score seems like a good way to do this. But thanks for your response which was helpful in clarifying my own thoughts about this. - Adam

I guess we disagree somewhat. There are scores I would consider great but I don't listen to very often. So it doesn't seem a composer should be marked down for writing for a film that only needs 10 minutes of modernistic, non-thematic music so long as it seems like the right score for the movie. It might be a less than great listening experience but the perfect score for that movie. It might be just as challenging and just as impressive in its own way as a film score. I guess I'm basing this on the idea that any movie has the potential for a great score so long as a composer is able to find its "soul", so to speak, and communicate that musically. And its worth noting that people will differ widely in their interpretation of what "shines on its own". - Adam

Partly its a matter of what criteria are we using. If we’re talking about what scores are a consistently good listening experience then I would expect to have lots of diagreement. People value different things in music and I see no reason why someone shouldn’t take as much pleasure from a James Bond score, Harry Potter, The Fury or whatever the case might be. John Williams’ favorite, he says, is Close Encounters, which has now been mentioned. He’s less a fan of his own score, TESB, then many of us apparently. But I just see this as normal human difference in tastes. There are people who would prefer Stanley and Iris because they dislike the brashness of TESB. Come to think of it... 99% of the world doesn’t even like film music, particularly. If we’re talking about the value of a score from the point of view of its relationship to the movie, then that can be discussed a little bit more objectively, I think. And by that criteria, I regard Sleepers is a great score even if I hardly listen to it or a 15 minute synthesizer score can be great or a James Bond score can be great or whatever the case may be. I guess I'm not as confident in declaring certain Williams scores "better" because its not clear to me what criteria people are using. Maybe its just a way of stating a preference in which case this says much more about our own personal quirks of taste than the score itself. Much easier for me to talk about favorites as Forge just did. - Adam

My only disagreement with the Steve is that, although TESB is my favorite, I don't necessarily see it as a case where "he poured everything into this" or was at his peak technique-wise. I could be wrong but as I watch the various movies it seems to me that a lot of credit goes to the movie itself which provided opportunities for a rich, epic score in a way that few films ever do. The impression I get of JW is that, within the world of the particular film that he is scoring, he rarely holds back. Its just that certain films are more limiting or less conduscive to music that we most want to hear or whatever. For example, I could argue that his score for Presumed Innocent was as appropriate for Presumed Innocent as the TESB score was for TESB. Its just that the nature of the film, Presumed Innocent, wasn't conducive to the kind of music that most people are going to enjoy as much on its own. Or if we compare the way AOTC was structured and directed with the way that TESB was, I think this further draws out my point. A lot of the scores mentioned are wonderful, IMO. There's obviously subjectivity involved so it would be hard for me to recommend anything with total confidence. For example, its great to see there are several strong advocates, Marian and others, for The Fury. Its a wonderful score but for reasons of personal taste, I suppose, I don't listen to it as often as many others (though the Epilogue is a definite favorite). Who knows where you'd come down? Probably best to rent the movies and decide what you think of the score before buying it. The music is usually better, anyway, when you know the context with which it was written for. - Adam, having major log-in issues

Eiger Sanction is another example of his common practice during that time of re-recording the music for the soundtrack (or at least a healthy portion). In some cases this is nice but the biggest disappointment of the album, for me, is not having the original main title. The film version is so European and surprisingly prettty with all sorts of lovely key changes. Instead we get a little of this but with a condensed version of the intro. and the jazzy arrangement tacked on to the second half over the original writing. I guess the changes make it fit in with the rest of the soundtrack better. It would be one of my favorite tracks otherwise, I'm certain. -Adam

I've wondered about this song. Its not in the movie at all as far as I can tell. Somebody who can make a MIDI file of it should post it for us to hear. Sheet music won't do it justice but I'd like to have some idea what this is supposed to sound like. - Adam, who'd like to give his personal assurance to MSM, for whatever its worth, that the first two songs were not written by Williams

I see - no big deal... I also forget how in the 1970s he was well known for his adaptation of musicals, for which a very different style of arranging and musicianship is required. Not to mention his original non-film musical, Thomas and the King. And let us not forget the ever-popular genre of Arab go-go music (John Goldfarb). - Adam

It would take too long to list everything but a few more that come to mind : Far and Away - Irish (I think you meant) Missouri Breaks - bluegrass Several other bluesy deep south type of scores Seven Years in Tibet - Asian influenced Dracula, The Fury - probably more pure horror genre than Jaws Home Alone - slapstick but also Christmas music, of course AI- techno-briefly, postmodern (whatever that means) Monsignor - Italian influenced Schindler's List - Jewish Heartbeeps - most electronic score Lots of cases of individual tracks that take on a different styles within the larger score. For example, who would have thought JW was so talented at writing cultish, devil-woshipping music? (Temple of Doom) Or swing music for another planet? (Cantina Band) - Adam

The first two aren't Williams compositions (Poseiden and Towering Inferno). There's a lot of pop songs from the 60s and early 70s that I wouldn't want to try to list. Two Lovers from How to Steal a Million, Penelope are just a couple out of probably at least a dozen or so. The Long Goodbye, depending on the version, might be my favorite. I think I would like Pete n Tillie love theme a lot if there's a good version of it out there (with the lyrics). How Can I Remember is a definite favorite of the songs listed. Another inclusion would be Bette Midler singing Somewhere in my Memory - more poppish than When you are Alone. - Adam

I would have preferred the original. It corresponds more closely, I think, with the way the scene was shot. Being the almost final scene, the way Luke is gazing at the fire and the way the camera pans up to display fireworks - its more suggestive of the original interpretation since you still get the sad, plaintive beginning but it transforms into something more powerful and triumphant - as though Luke has "arrived" after his journey. His rewrite basically works, though, by drawing out a different feeling from the scene. - Adam

I'm not sure how this connects to the discussion but I recall an interview with JW years ago where this subject was brought up in a different manner. JW was saying one of the reasons synthesizers will never replace an orchestra is that we don't want to hear perfect pitch. There's something in an orchestra's striving for it but not quite getting it or its sliding into the right pitch. I guess that's one of the reasons a violin sounds so wrong on a synthesizer. I think his conlusion was that he didn't have perfect pitch and its a good thing he didn't because we're not really meant to listen to music that way. That's how I remember it. - Adam

I think its interesting to hear how all of his heroic marches differ in ways that reflect the different characters. 1941 is used for the Belushi character and he gets the comedic, America 1940s, military march aspect. Superman theme is the most bold and noble in a kind of larger than life way. The Raiders March is the most swashbuckling and adventurous, in addition to the qualities you mentioned, again reflecting the differences in movies and characters. - Adam

I could probably go on endlessly with this topic. I've always regarded watching the movie, even if its bad, as a wonderful way to "listen" to the music. Even though the sound effects, dialog, etc. can be frustrating, once I get a feel for what JW is trying to accomplish with a scene, the music often feels more complete in a certain sense, when heard with the movie. There are lots of dialog sequences, for example, where he accomplishes what he says he tries to do, which is treat the words as part of the score. The best moments that jump to mind right away are the final 20 minutes of ET, the opening sequence of Born on the Fourth of July when Kovik hits a homerun and, of course, The Dark Side Beckons - a good example of a scene where the clashing light sabers somehow add to the music (not that I'd want them to include that on the soundtrack). - Adam

The main theme from Superman is so quintessentially Superman that its hard for me to imagine how JW could have improved on that. There's even the last phrase of the fanfare portion where the orchestra says "Superman!" without actually saying it, if people know what I mean. I think Donner made a similar comment when he first heard the theme. I prefer the contrast and atmosphere of the first half of the score, as a listen. But its an amazing score all around. - Adam

Spielberg also says 1941 is the best. I'm not sure what criteria to use for best but if we mean our favorite, mine isn't listed. I had a tv recording many, many years ago of JW's march for the Special Olympics called "We're Feeling Good". I wish there was an official release of this. There's also a version with lyrics which I've never heard but was used for the opening ceremonies. Of the choices listed I would say, Olympic Spirit if its a march and the Imperial March if it isn't (I'd say it isn't). - Adam

I disagree with jsawruk and am more inclined to agree with many others who have correctly identified an overall elitist bias in musical academia. I'm also in a agreement with John Williams, who has spoken of this phenomenon numerous times. He's noted that the situation has been worse in the United States as compared to Europe. Of course, there are plenty of individual exceptions and the situation has, no doubt, slowly improved over the years. But there's still a long way to go in my estimation. - Adam

Are we assuming that inclusion of conert pieces is coming at the expense of underscore from the movie? If so, I suppose it would depend on the movie. Many times concert pieces are redundant and I wish I had more underscore. Other times, concert pieces represent a highlight of the album. If its simply a question of having or not having it, by all means, bring it on. If somebody doesn't like it they don't have to listen to that track. - Adam

When we're talking about "divine spark" we're getting into the mysterious territory that I was speaking of earlier. We can sort of know what he means but its impossible to articulate what characterizes music of this type. And there IS plenty of subjectivity involved. Williams hasn't written very many non-film, "serious" works. For that reason alone, he's not going to have the impact that Mozasrt and others have had. Also, orchestral music has come a long way since then. It would be hard for anybody to have that kind of impact. His biggest impact has been and will continue to be, I would assume, in the area of film music which, again, is too different a craft to make direct comparisons with past greats. If somebody likes to listen to music in the manner they listen to Wagner and others, its quite possible they aren't going to like JW. His adaptability, which makes him so impressive as a film composer, might make these people view him in the manner of your professor. No reason this should stop the rest of us from appreciating Williams or whoever it is that "speaks" to us. - Adam

Good post, but its not at all clear the original post was speaking of only JW's importance to academia. But, even if so, the attention one gets in academia does not necessarily represent a very good barometer of a composer's value or intrinsic academic importance. The fact that people often have to die before being recognized in academia would be just one example of a weakness of academia that should be overcome. And I have no confidence, as my previous post pointed out, that academia will properly understand the contributions of film composers, JW or otherwise. You emphasize the role of melody as an important Williams contribution. No doubt, he is most known for his famous themes. But the way you formulated your argument, he could have wrote the Star Wars theme for Jaws and he would have been just as successful. In other words, the very crucial aspect of his success is not only writing appealing music with appealing melodies to successful movies (that could be done more commonly than by just a few people), but also writing music that evokes the spirit of the movie so vividly. And I don't think academia looks into that aspect of film music (unless you're in film scoring school). And it would be a very incomplete or inaccurate picture of JW's legacy if this weren't acknowldeged. Again, this is why film music and concert music have to be examined differently, IMO. For similar reasons, I take your conclusion that he doesn't have "compositional aptitute" to achieve the greatness of Mozart, Bach, etc. with a grain of salt. His film scores are written to serve the puposes of the film, not to aspire to the heights of the composers you mentioned. And even if we were to examine JW's concertos, there's no way to convincingly conclude where JW stands in the scheme of great composers. From the point of view of technical difficulty and harmonic sophistication (something that can be objectively measured to a certain extent), an objective Martian studying the situation, knowing nothing of our culture or history, would likely conclude that Williams was vastly superior to Bach, Mozart and others. But, of course, JW has the benefit of hundreds of years of musical history to draw upon that past greats didn't. And there are other criteria - much more important, perhaps. But what we regard as "great" music is too mysterious to be articulated and it makes debate on this matter pretty much impossible. (: - Adam

I don't think his importance is really in question. Even his harshest critics, if they're honest, would have to acknowledge his role in popularizing orchestral music and would have to acknowledge that he has aquired a name-recognition and popularity beyond what any other contempory orchestral composer has been able to achieve. I think that gives him an "importance" even independent of the question of how one regards the music itself. As far as being in the same league as past greats, I think its misleading to try to compare. Film music is a very different craft than simply writing something for concert. As JW has said himself, most of what is written for film doesn't belong in a concert hall. If someone has spent their lifetime studying classical music and then they hear JW, its not surprising that they're going to listen to it like they would Mozart, Beethoven, etc. And if you combine that with the common tendency towards ivory tower snobbishness that US musical academia seems to produce, its not surprising that he is looked down upon by this crowd. His music is top-notch, IMO, but its the ability to write quality music that is so wedded to the events in the movie that makes him so impressive. So while some people notice that a passage sounds like so and so from 100 years ago or whatever, I'm noticing that he's capturing all of the detail, emotion, tempo of a movie or scene. But I can't compare that to Mozart or anyone else outside of the film world. Its a different craft and has to be judged differently, I think. - Adam

Thanks for your help. It sounds like quite different arrangements than the movie but inspired by the idea of changing the melody around with different musical approaches and styles. - Adam

I've always said my favorite was Empire Strikes Back which I just posted about. Since I can't really vote for it (Star Wars are all lumped together), I'll also put in a kind word for ET which I don't listen to that often, for some reason, but regard it as the best "showcase" score. Its the one I would point to if I wanted somebody to learn about the importance music can play to a film or to learn about the ability that JW brings to the table. - Adam

I tend to think that too much is made of the supposedly more mature JW. The scores cited for being more mature are all to movies that are more mature. If JW had scored AI, Minority Report, etc. in the early 80's and his big blockbuster films in the present, I would expect some people to say that he was more mature in the early 80s. I think of a film score like Jane Eyre or Images, done in the early 1970s, which were plenty mature in the sense that people seem to be talking about. His style and technique has, no doubt, evolved somewhat but its completely misleading to be comparing scores like AI and CMIYC in the context of a discussion about what the next Indiana Jones music will be like. And this is independent of whether a person happens to like these scores. How different the new Indiana Jones music is going to be will be determined, for the most part, by how different a film we get. Its safe to say it will sound a lot more like Indiana Jones music than AI, CMIYC, etc. just like the prequel scores sound a lot more like Star Wars scores than they do any other contemporary JW score. - Adam

The Spielberg/Williams collaboration version that Williams always uses in concerts is not in the film at all, although there are obvious similarities. As music, I like the film version better, especially the version heard in the opening credits. The concert version is almost like the theme he wished he had written or something. I recall in an interview where he cited that score as the one he would most like to improve (out of the Spielberg films, I think, but I'm not certain). - Adam