Adam

Is the final 12 minute suite all jazz renditions? From the movie? New arrangements? I'm interested to hear you describe this a little more if you don't mind. I realized I was too unkind in my previous post. The jazz versions are heard pretty extensively in the movie. Its the singing versions that are the most abrubt. Anyway, I love this theme, too. Its growing on me more and more. - Adam

Heartbeeps is an interesting little score. Before the soundtrack came out, the only way I could listen to the music was to rent the movie. So I ended up watching the movie several times (at least the parts with music). As someone who’s interested in how his music functions in the film, its kind of fascinating, because its quite possibly the worst movie I've ever seen JW score and its right in the middle of an era when he was composing some of the best movies. But, anyway, I have to conclude that he gave this stupid little movie a great score. While he’s not able save the movie from the reality of its horrible production value, horrible jokes, etc., JW somehow makes sense of the nonsense and finds the film’s soul. As a listening experience, this isn’t typical Williams - very heavy on the use of electronics, with a much slighter feel than what we’re accustomed to. Its not a score I listen to very much and I find it most interesting as a case study in JW’s approach to scoring a really bad film. He displays the trademark professionalism and seriousness of effort. He could have said, "this movie sux, I might as well let loose with some music that will please my fans" but, not surpringly, he subordinates the music to the needs of the film. The end result is a musical texture that marries with the movie but is probably not going to be anyone’s favorite as a listening experience, to put it nicely. Still, it stands out as a unique musical contribution to JW's repertoire. Worth buying? Was for me but only you know if its worth it for you. - Adam

Lots of worthy winners but I'd have to go with Empire Strikes Back. Its an amazingly rich score, IMO. Intimate at times yet also epic in its scale and in its fantasy. His score is often fast paced with action rooted in characters, themes, and unique musical hooks for individual scenes, never to be used again. I like its darker edge with the undercurrent of melancholy. Even the themes for the protagonists like Yoda and Han and Leia are constructed with the sadder arc of the film in mind. Vader's theme is prominent and quintessentially evil in an appropriately militaristic kind of way. Lots of interesting musical ideas, rooted in the movie as always. It was my first JW album and remains my favorite, probably for any decade. Its a showcase for great music but, also, JW's incredible grasp of detail and nuance. On a minor note, I hope there aren't a lot of Always fans trying in vain to vote for their favorite score. ( ; And, technically, Yes Giorgio was scored by someone else, though JW contributed a song. - Adam

I basically agree with 'Omen II' but, though we get all these different versions of the song, its usually only the first 10-20 seconds at most. So, its actually a bit frustating to keep hearing the song and not get to hear the whole song except maybe in the piano bar. Also, what point was the movie trying to make by this? I guess its kind of interesting to hear the theme pop up with the doorbell and every imaginable circumstance but I don't know that its even particularly witty. It would be great to have the full versions of the songs, though, except for the grocery store version. - Adam

If I were going to quibble (which I generally like to do) I would say that, technically, he could be including Lost World under the category of "Sometimes that sort of thing is warranted and called for...", and his referance to "Some whoopdie-doo rattle drum" wouldn't really describe anything remotely like The Lost World which employs a full Latin rythem section of some kind, giving the scenes a certain ethnic, dark jungle character but also also pace and tension (in other words, a very non-gimmicky way, I think.) And, if JW had done the 3rd Jurassic Park I think he also would have frowned on the instrumentation of The Lost World and given us something closer to the first film because of the look and approach was closer to that one. Having said that, I really don't know, and suspect your interpretation is right. - Adam

I suppose I'll say Far and Away. They all seem deserving of more attention but this one is maybe the most surprising to not be more recognized (of the ones listed of course). Its recent, it has broad themes, great action music and, with the scenes pertaining to Ireland, he writes music that is somehow 10 times more Irish than most Irish music. The end credits/Chieftans/orchestral blowout is pretty amazing writing and that love/land theme when performed by pan flute or penny whistle is one of my favorite themes - gorgeous. - Adam

The best version of the main theme that isn't in the soundtrack, IMO, is towards the end when Heinrich is leaving Tibet. Its a nice French horn solo with interesting string counterpoint. The scene with the train is on the soundtrack, I think. I'm not sure what theme you're speaking of, Ray, but all of the themes appear in the movie, I think. There's a nice little motif that's used in the end credits that contrasts with the main theme. I don't think it appears in the main of the movie - so maybe that's what you mean. Overall, people are right to criticize the score's treatment in the movie. Its one of the worst I can think of for JW. Angela's Ashes comes sort of close and we all know about the prequels. There's an epic scene towards the beginning with wide camera angle shots, beutiful scenery, the whole business and there's literally NO music. Instead of being treated to JW's epic theme, conjuring up the grandeur of the Himilayas and the sense of the perilous, sad journey we're instead transported to a documentary. Lots of other places where there's music but its pretty clearly a rewrite where he was told to tone it down several notches. So potentially poignant scenes are treated to wandering flute of some sort. There's music that is some of my favorite of JW's at about 3:00 into track 9 with the piano and cello counterpoint. Absolutely heartbreaking if it had been allowed to stay in the movie, I would imagine. Oh well... - Adam

Sounds like Davis is another dreaded JW "fanboy". - Adam

Morn's return is going to be the kiss of death with regard to my self-imposed ban as I realize what an argument here is going to entail. However, what I'm talking about, Morn, is people who don't just say they prefer certain music because that would not entail criticism of the composer. People usually go further and call something "better" in which case this can mean better as music or better for fitting the film. You're correct to say there is some correlation. However, the Superman love theme would be great music even if he wrote it for Presumed Innocent. Needless to say, it would be a terrible film score. Furthermore, is anyone really prepared to say that the Love Theme from Superman is "better" as music than ATS? If so, I don't think they would be able to explain how this is so in which case I'm left assuming that this is a matter of preference and taste. Especially since, as this thread shows, there are plenty of people who feel the opposite, or people like myself who regard both in high esteem. Its not a major crime, of course, but people often would like to generalize their personal reaction to a musical piece into some sort of authoritative critique of the composer's effort instead of just critiquing their reaction to the music or something. I think a little more humility is called for in these situations if we're trying to be fair to the composer, whether it be JW or somebody else. - Adam

There are really too separate questions that tend to get mixed together : Which piece do you like to listen to? Which piece is a better from the standpoint of serving its function in the film? I think, generally, people let their feelings on the first question answer the second. So if someone doesn't like something, it becomes a criticism of JW for not being up to par. Nobody actually says "Williams should have writting something that I like to listen to and I don't care if all of these other people seem to really like it." but its often implied. Its pretty much impossible to argue about the first question because people like what they like. If someone can take pleasure from something I think sounds terrible, more power to them. Its possible to not like listening to something and still recognize its value and function to the film, though. I think both themes functioned brilliantly in the movies. As Ray stated, he had to go for a different kind of love theme with each movie. In Superman, the love theme has a more lyrical, expansive melody because its afforded more space in the movie and is associated with their flying around. Take away that scene and we might not have gotten the theme that many here like so much. ATS has an appropriately tragic, forbidden feel that he's able to manipulate in the small dialog scenes as well as giving it an epic sweep for the Love Pledge and the Finale. I thought it worked great although no theme is so good that it can completely cover for that acting. As listening experiences, I happen to prefer the Superman theme, probably, though I do like the presentation of the ACS love theme, especially with the Love Pledge where we get that sense of high tragedy and some gorgeous counterpoint for the lead in around 1:20 or so. But at any rate, I'm not sure how either let down their respective movies but others may have ideas. - Adam

The main problems I have with callling this Sltherin (though I agree it has nothing to do with Nimbus 2000) are the following : 1. There are lots of scenes with Slytherin where this theme is not used 2. In Mr. Longbottom Flies, the music is used for Neville's antics well before Malfoy becomes involved 3. The snake in the zoo would be a kind of abstract Slytherin connection especially since there are many more overt connections that he doesn't make throughout the movie I do think with the Quidditch match that the theme in a couple places morphs into something with a litte darker edge to highlight something Slytherin is doing (like scoring a goal). In other places it just seems used to give the scene a frantic energy like when the Quidditch match first begins. What most these scenes have in common is a certain lively, mischieviousness sense of fun. Its almost not a theme so much as it is a rythmic motif that injects PS with a certain comedic energy, I think. In COS, the motif loses its energy and becomes a more slapstick, comedic motif. But, again, what Marian says has enough validity that I'm open minded about this. - Adam

Ironically, I would probably be banned for less time for saying something religious than my self-imposed ban is going to be. In that light, its tempting to use this opportunity to give my 10 point summary about the evils of organized religion but good taste prevents me.. Adam, partly wondering if even that crossed a line

I see what you're saying but I'm still not so sure... I think this may be another case of a musical idea that isn't necessarily supposed to have a specific representation. I see it as a tool to provide varying degrees of comic energy and fun underneath the sequences. I think its application is more consistent if seen this way but I could be wrong. It will be interesting to see how its used in the future... - Adam, who's been trying to ban himself from the message boards until a much later date but can't seem to stop contributing to this thread

The theme is used in PS when Harry takes flight for the first time so it wouldn't have anything to do with Neville. I don't think that the theme is supposed to have a specific identification other than he probably needed a musical idea for that scene that would convey a sense of dark, wizadry heroism, adventure and flight. Its inclusion during the Dursleys seen worked pretty well but I think its a mistake to read into clues about the themes' meaning from COS because of the whole adaptation thing. There seemed to be a lot of choices made about thematic use that were more born of the time constraint and the reuse of earlier music, then out of any decision about thematic content. Its partly for this reason that I'm skeptical about the Slytherin theme. Are you talking, Marian, about the fast, staccato motif that is first heard in the scene with the snake in PS and used in a slowed down way during COS? - Adam

Actually, quite a bit of unreleased music from the PS score appears on the COS soundtrack, like the forest music and the award thingy at the end. Of course, its an adapted version with slightly different tempos and so forth. And a full release of COS would have quite a few really nice unreleased cues. I like the short main theme arrangements as the camera pans down and a few other spots. - Adam

Here I can be much more confident in agreeing with Marian about the Gryffindor theme. COS was kind of an anomoly from the point of view of thematic consistency and the theme doesn't appear much at all if I remember correctly in that movie. As for your responses, Stefancos, I'm surprised, given that you don't take your own posts that seriously, that you seemingly took mine so seriously. Being called a fanboy by the JWFAN message board's most omnipresent member (who owns how many JW cds?) is not as insulting or credible as you seem to think. You've modified your original statement to that of a mere disagreement, though, you apparently felt compelled not to state it that way in your orginal post. If you believe that absolute truth is a myth you obviously wouldn't "KNOW" what you said you did, especially for a topic this subjective. But, I guess the lesson learned, is that I'm not to take what you say litterally or apply the rules of logic since you are merely mocking others so as not to have to "concentrate on the festering shitheap that is your life", as you admirably admitted. As for your advice on my own life, I'm feeling fine about it but, thank you, I appreciate the concern. And for those who would say "ANYTHING Williams has written is a thousant times better then the best work of any other composer, treating Williams not like the outstanding composer that he is, but as God on earth, alive and scoring films", I feel no need to respond since I've never said anything of the sort, nor would you be able to quote anything I said that came close. In fact, I generally go out of my way to apply reasoning, evidence, etc. But you should be thanking those who do say these things since they give you ammunition to put on display the persona of sneering superiority which you've tried so hard to cultivate. My "fascination" continues. - Adam, wondering if he's ruined his chances at a free AI promo CD

You beat me to it. I just was listening to it once again after I posted. Once again, I should try doing my research before posting. Anyway, my edited post wrongly asserted that track 7 didn't appear in the movie which it does. I also thought that it didn't match up quite right but, at this point, not having the movie to see right now, I have no confidence in that judgement so I'd defer to Marian on this point. - Adam

Editing my post. - Adam

Never mind, it does seem deliberate which makes me think that maybe the music was written for a scene that didn't make the movie and then tracked in in both instances where it appears prominently. It also means I should have listened to it before writing my last paragraph. Whoops. - Adam

Great post, Marian. I would only say that the stone plays a very similar role in the first HP as the chamber does in the second which makes the using of the same musical theme more consistent though, like you, I wouldn't want to hear it in every movie. After all, the theme was supposed to convey the emotional qualities of mystery, danger, etc. that the stone represented, not so much the stone itself (I think). But, anyway, a minor point I suppose. The Hogwarts theme, which you call it, appears to be a late edition to his score. Both cases it appears, it seems to be used over the orginal music that was written. My impression is that it was written to replace his original Diagon Alley music and then tracked in again when they show the dinner hall. Its similarity to the boat sequence is probably not deliberate since the theme didn't appear to be part of his original score. But I'll go back and listen to the track. - Adam

This is the Fugue-like theme (Preparing the Cage, I think) from Jaws, though the orginal example still isn't making sense to me. - Adam

I think of the Sorcerer's Stone theme becoming the Mystery that Surrounds the Unfolding Events theme in COS. It even works for the most part to think of the theme this way for the first movie which, then, would make its use more thematically consistent. But, nonetheless, it obviously overlaps with the Chamber theme and is arranged in the same fashion as the first movie - no doubt because of the time constraints JW had and the adaptation by Ross. Unfortunately, COS is sort of a mess like this, both thematically and just as an overall underscore. But the final result was much still much better than what I was prepared for. 'Hlaa-roo' - thank you for the kind comments. I've enjoyed reading your posts - you're a welcome exception to the phenomonon I described. Don't even mind a good debate over a moehill - although in this case I became self-conscious that we were debating a human being who might have something to say about the matter. (: I have been around more lately but am likely to disappear for stretches of time (to the delight of at least a few, no doubt) until someone says something to raise my ire, once again ... - Adam

I guess at this point its better to just let him speak for himself if he's so inclined. He's no doubt getting a kick out of reading our debating of the nuances of his ever so slight post - the irony quotient, the jocularity level, etc. My wording can come across as kind of strong, especially since I hardly ever use emoticons, but, again, my intent was not to treat his post as some major offense if that's how it came across. But I think what I said still holds true even accounting for the fact that he's no doubt not taking his post completely seriously as you point out. - Adam

I've reconsidered it and it sounds the same to me. His tone is that of someone who has read a thousand posts from people ragging on LOTR in one fashion or another and he's trying to stick a needle in the eye of the people who say such things by showing his utter intransiance and assuredness on the issue. If there's another point he's trying to make by way of sarcasm or irony, he didn't do a very good job of it. At any rate, the general phenomenon I'm speaking of is alive and well which, if I didn't make myself clear, is not any bother to me (thus the wording "fascinated" not "irritated"). - Adam - Adam

I'm not at all surprised that LOTR won although I thought HP was better. But its not like there is a scientific method for evaluating best score. Its always going to be quite subjective. Luckily for us, Stefancos' point of view is apparently tantamount to absolute truth and we don't have to wonder anymore. - Adam, who is fascinated by the message board phenomenon of "arguments" that do away with any pretense of evidence or reasoning and simply involve different sides asserting opposite positions and then seeing who can come across sounding the most authoritative, as though the force of their personality alone should be enough to convince us.