Adam

The End Titles in the film is a little different. Combines the beginning End Credits, goes into the second part of Thoughts of Home and ends with A Prayer for Peace. So that leaves off the piano part of the End Credits after it comes back with that great secondary melody and everything that follows. But its a good thing that he expanded on the melodies for the album, otherwise it would be mostly a thiller type of album and instead its about half and half. - Adam

From the point of view of the music's importance to the film and its representation in the film, Geisha was the most satisfying score to hear with the movie. It wasn't flawless but there was less to gripe about than the other movies. But as an album, I'm thinking Munich will probably remain on top for me even after the newness rubs off. Its hard to rate them though because they are all so different. Each has advantages and disadvantages over the others. - Adam

Its early but I voted for Remembering Munich. Its unlike anything he's written in many respects and is probably the most important, prominent track in Munich. Sounds Israeli and feels about as mournful and moving as a piece of music could be. Also feels like the solo female voice is the perfect expression of that melody, though I like the cello version and oboe version as well. - Adam

No lyrics are listed. Speilberg's notes : "In the world of film scores, 2005 will be remembered as a John Williams red-letter year. Incredibly, John comosed and conducted four scores [names the scores here]. Each of these scores only had the composer in common. The compositions couldn't be more diverse, and clearly illustrates what I have been saying for years in my liner notes, that John Williams is a master of disguise. From deep space to deep history, from the futherest reaches of the Japanese culture to the darkest notes John has ever written to depict the collapse of civilization, fans of film music were treated to a John Williams concert in four acts. His last act of 2005 was to compose the music for a film inspired by the tragic events of 1972 and the Games of the 20th Olympiad in Munich, Germany where Black September kidnapped and murdered eleven members of the Israeli Olympic team. For me, the quintessential movement of John's score for Munich entitled "A Prayer for Peace" embraces the history of this tragedy while deeply honoring the memory of the members of the Israeli team who were murdered on Sept. 6, 1972." - Adam

I was struck by the lack of music. I figured the underscore would be sparce but I would have never guessed that the biggest musical presense in the movie would be that quiet, heartbeat percussive effect. Spielberg was trying to be gritty and unsentimental so its not a criticism of him or JW. In fact I like that JW has different opportunities like this but its a movie that’s a far cry from the movies where JW “makes me look good” as Spielberg once said. Speilberg wants to be taken seriously and one of the effects is to marginalize the importance of JW to his movies. Its a long movie and its not until the last 20 minues or so that the more melodic, thematic material has a chance to make much of an impact though there are a few occasions earlier as well - just very brief for the most part. I’m extremely anxious for the soundtrack which is sure to have more music than in the film. The female vocalist was beautiful and a highlight musically of the film when it plays towards the end - something I wouldn’t have thought I’d say about the wailing type of music. But it was very strong emotionally along with being culturally evokative. I thought it transcended the wailing woman genre that I expected, even from JW’s attempts in RotS or Minority Report. I agree about Avner’s theme. That could end up being one of my JW-favorites both in the quiet piano rendition at the end of the film and the string elegy in the end credits. The JW-arranged Israeli national anthem will be a great bonus. I’ve wanted a good arrangment of that so it was nice to hear that in the film and know that will be on the soundtrack. The film itself didn’t work as well for me as I was hoping. Partly it may be a matter of expectations - the idea of the film seemed more promising than what was delivered. Could have been more focused or something. Still, its compelling to watch and politically provakative. The performances were top-rate and I liked seeing the secret operative underworld. Probably be better when I see it again in the future - I’ll be able to appreciate it on its own terms better. In the meantime, I really want that album. - Adam

I think that the source music for the dance scenes makes up some of that music that is credited in the end credits. JW wrote similar type of underscore for koto in track 4 but that makes more sense when there’s no need for historical, period accuracy as with source music. Also, if that's the case there's very little in unreleased music. Overall, I was very happy with the sound mix and the presense the music had in the movie. Its a more atmospheric type of score for a movie that was heavy on production value. Lot of it reinforces the exotic imagery, where thet audience is being brought into this other world. So that means the score had less narrative drive or emotional depth, like the movie itself. I thought the movie needed more in that dept. though I was still somewhat affected by the finale to my surprise, partly because of JW”s Confluence track which worked great. There’s a kind of a release in that track, musically, as though the emotion is finally being allowed to the fore. It seemed like JW designed his thematic material that way which makes sense given the story arc of the film. - Adam

Its never surprised me that there aren’t as many fans from Asia - their cultures are a little more insulated, less Westernized. Israel, Western Europe, Northern Europe tend to be much more interlinked culturally with the US for obvious reasons. Plus, even if there were lots of JW fans in Asia, they’d be less likely to speak English so you wouldn’t necessarily discover them here anyway. But that still leaves the question of why are there so many Dutch posters, above and beyond the rest of Europe it seems. Somebody please explain that one to me, assuming its not just a fluke of some sort. Is there more focus on Hollywood as an outlet for films, as opposed to other countries in Europe which have a stronger film industry of their own, France, England, etc.? I have no idea, just thinking out loud. - Adam

I know its been discussed a little bit for people who got it early but since today is the official release in the United States it seems like there should be more discussion now. Any thoughts, rankings, etc.? Its kind of early but I'm enjoying it a lot. I like that he absorbs the Japanese aura so completely. It makes me think of something like Jane Eyre or Missouri Breaks in the sense that he so completely takes on the musical personality of another culture, with some more trademark Williams stylings of course. The waltz with Perlman is maybe my early favorite. Very pretty and the chord progression and melody for the middle section is something I especially like. I like the way he uses the main theme throughout and the end credits track is another highlight so far. There are parts that drag in relation to these more tonal sections, but even there, its so well composed and atmospheric that I get something from it. I'm anxious to hear it with the film as usual. - Adam

Star of Bethleham was my vote though its kind of tough to pick one. I particularly like the big choral version with the rich harmonies and orchestra arrangment. - Adam

He was addressing some of the types of things Stefancos brought up and I believe he said he liked the prequels. He took the time to offer thoughts about something people might be curious about and you found a way to be upset about it. Related to that kind of comment and the thread in general, it hurts the case of those who like the prequels to make a special thread where critics aren’t supposed to respond. It gives the impression that the intellectual basis for liking the prequels is so weak it can’t withstand free discussion. Or maybe the impression of a persecuted minority so lacking in self-confidence that prequel discussion must take the form of a big group hug, to avoid the blow to sensitive egos that would result otherwise. There’s plenty of legitimate criticisms that could be made of prequel-bashing but its not hard to overcome it when people just calmly defend their thoughts and ideas like many people have in this thread. And then why not take the high road and encourage dissent and disagreement, something that shouldn’t be problematic if you’re secure in yourself and your views. Plus its more interesting to have debate, I think, but that’s just my 2 cents. - Adam

I like it when JW has opportunities to write exciting action music which also has some kind of emotional resonance. I think in general the more he has to write music for a scene that amounts to busy spectacle, the more his action music also becomes kind of a wash as a listen. To the extent he is able to score something for a scene with a little more thought behind it and, even better, some emotional range, his action music rises to the occasion as well. The best example of this for me is Battle of Hoth, especially the portion after about 9:35 where he weaves in meloncholy versions of force theme and the main theme over fast paced underscore. For me that’s about as compelling as it gets as action music goes though there are lots of other great examples. - Adam

I’ve notcied since the HP movies first came out that JW has gotten a fair amount of criticism for his scores, especially considering how rare it is for critics to comment on the scores at all. Part of it might stem from what I noticed to be an elitist bias against the kind of film music that tries to actually say something in relation to the movie. Lots of critics feel insulted that they are being “manipulated”. They tend to watch the film from an overly detached way, understandably, trying to take everything in from the point of view of being able to evaluate the script, acting, directing, etc. So unless they are predisposed to appreciate the role that film music can play, they often find JW’s music to be intrusive in ways that I don’t think afflict the average movie-goer nearly as much. Also, I’ve noticed those kinds of criticisms more when the movie is less popular with critics. Home Alone score received some put-downs where critics didn’t like that JW was “cloying”, basically that he was telling the audience we’re supposed to feel warm and fuzzy if the film wasn’t doing it for the critics. Turns out, the film WAS doing it for a lot of non-critics and its a good thing that JW believed in the material or he would have sold the film short. But as far as GoF goes, I agree with Justin, unless we’ve heard the score with the movie we’re only evaluating it as an album, which is fine. How it works with the movie is really the key from the point of view of what Doyle was hired for. - Adam

Reading the JW-is-declining train of thought, I tend to imagine JW having a car accident, suffering slight brain damage, right before he was set to score The River in 1985. Luckily Temple of Doom came out before the accident or we would have heard a much worse score, or so the logic would suggest. (And no doubt we'd all be listening to The River right now if they only would have greenlighted that film a couple years earlier.) But sarcasm aside, the 1975-1984 stretch was unprecedented. Not only was he scoring lots of popular, successful films but they were films where music really mattered to the movie, above and beyond the usual. Surely no film composer has ever had such a huge stretch of opportunities and hits (albeit well-deserved). But, to me, its like asking if Reivers is better than John Goldfarb. Of course, but it seems silly to say JW got better in 1969 just in time for The Reivers. Its a reflection of the opportunity he had, in large part. That’s not to say there hasn’t been a personal evolution on JW’s part - I just think its exaggerated. Over the years, I’ve maintained my enjoyment of the bigger stuff, and its probably his earlier era where a lot of my favorite stuff is but it doesn't really break down neatly into eras. Its the more intimate scores where I can really trace my own interest increasing. And its in his later years where he's had more opportunities for this thing which is either a plus or a minus depending on what you want. But there’s a lot of JW and a lot of art for that matter that is only going to be “good” if you’ve cultivated an interest or taste for it. Some people like the more recent JW as much or more and some people don’t. There’s no evidence of a decline that I've read but plenty of evidence that people are looking for different things when they listen to him. - Adam

Well I enjoyed your initial post Incanus. Well said. Detractors of JW ought to explain themselves that well instead of resorting to provokation, dogma and all the stuff that cuts off discussion. It would do their "cause" a favor, though I'm not sure why anyone would care if there are people who really like JW. - Adam

There's different ways of looking at it. If I don't like looking at Picasso, I don't conclude that he sucks. But with film music, sometimes it seems like its all about whatever the individual fan expects or wants and then sweeping judgements are made based on that and that's never really made sense to me. When you've scored the two most successful movies of the year, just recorded a soundtrack with two of the greatest musical peformers in the world (who've expressed admiration for JW) and you add up all these kinds of things, that's the kind of "decline" any composer could be envious of. Beyond that, there's lots of personal reactions. Some people like one thing, others don't. There's no way JW could please everybody. I wouldn't want every score to be like WotW but I'm glad to have at least one that takes that approach. But everyone's different, thankfully. - Adam

Very good score with some frustrations, especially as it exists in the movie. But as a soundtrack I listen to it a lot with lingering disappointment over the liftings from earlier scores. - Adam

Yeah I don’t even think its a matter of opinion. What counts is what JW has said and what his orchestrators have said. Everything I’ve read or heard from them indicates that they have little to nothing to do with the writing of the music. So unless there’s some evidence to the contrary I haven’t heard of, I just assume they’re telling the truth. - Adam

You mean with or without the movie, I assume? Its a highlight of the album, I'm not disparging it. But its a very compelling scene visually and I think that was what dictated his approach to a certain extent. So the combination in this case makes for something more powerful than when I just hear the music. But its the same music either way. Just a personal reaction I have when I hear the music in the context of the purpose it was written for. - Adam

I'd say at worst it was a clumsy attempt at a compliment on his part. Seems like he's just acknowledging JW’s gift at taking on the personality musically of his films. So without the film we would never have had the exact colorings of his particular scores. I wouldn’t word it quite like Perlman but I’ve often had the reaction that hearing his music with the movie is to hear the music in its most complete form. Its not that it doesn't hold up on its own, its just the nature of the craft that he's trying to be one piece of a larger product, so if he's doing his job, dialog becomes part of the score and the visuals "help" the music though the reverse is the point obviously. I remember being disappointed when I finally had the unreleased music to the final Vader-Luke confrontation on CD from RotJ. Its not that its not good music on its own, its very good, but it didn't live up to the power of hearing it in the context of the film, with the cinematography, clashing sabers, etc. Lots of examples like that where I think its that ability of Williams to get the right marriagae of music with the visuals that Perlman might be alluding to. Or another way of looking at it would be if Perlman was insulting Williams, that's a really bad press release and they need to work on their marketing. ( : - Adam

I'll probably rent it to hear the music with the movie again and to hear the unreleased stuff that I haven't heard for awhile now. I might buy it down the line at a cheap price as a poor substitute for a full release soundtrack but I'm not in any hurry. - Adam

Empire Strikes Back is my favorite. I thank the movie to some extent since it was the most music-friendly of the Star Wars movies in my mind. The right mix of ithe intimate and epic with the most compelling direction IMO. EDIT : as Richard more or less just said. ( : - Adam

Well I think because of all the changes to the score it would be hard to come up with a chonological album. I don't do chronological albums but I do like to know where the music went in the movie just because I usually appreciate the music even more. But with this film, there's big chunks of music where its not at all obvious where the music was supposed to go. So the film will help a little bit but not completely. I've seen it several times and there are some good unreleased cues so that's nice but its otherwise a frustrating movie to watch because of all the edits and rescoring (I assume), stuff left out, etc. But just off the top of my head, the album is fairly chronological based on the stuff that's in the film. Several tracks contain many cues in one so that would complicate things. Beginning of track 4, not in the movie, would be the second or third cue for example after track 2 and then another part of track 4 much later. Anyway, that's not much help but short of going through the album right now that's the best I can do. ( : - Adam

I haven't heard everything but I'd say Hogwarts Hmyn is my favorite also from what I've heard. That's the kind of music I most enjoy from Doyle where he churns out a nice melody with pretty counterpoint. It doesn't feel like Harry Potter music, even as a new interpretation of the story but hearing it with the film will be the true test I suppose. Either way, there's enough I like as music regardless of how good it is as underscore, that I'll probably buy this one. - Adam

I think the whole debate about him being the next JW has been mostly nonexistent but perpetuated nonetheless by his detractrors. I’ve never actually seen anyone defend the idea that he is the next JW and when somebody researched it he found one example on this message board of somebody saying this and even he took it back. But a lot of people enjoy his music. That can’t be argued so the subject gets changed to put his supporters on the defensive. He’s not one of the greats, he’s not JW, etc. Suddently even his biggest fan has to preface his comments by saying, “no he’s not the next Mozart” or whatever the case may be. At least that’s my impression. You try to portray people who like his music as naive followers of the next fad, so completely blinded by youthful enthusiasm they don’t realize they’re not listening to a modern-day Beethoven. Sometimes its as simple as what magical me said, many people like his music. Another factor is that since a lot of people who like his music were introduced through videogames, he has a younger fan base and and so if there’s any generational antipathy, Giachinno can be a club with which to beat young people over the head with, for anyone who likes to do that kind of thing. Some of the negative reviews, not just on this site, give the impression of a self-appointed priesthood trying to stamp out a heretic who hasn’t payed his dues in Hollywood yet. He’s relatively popular, it seems, but mostly outside the channels of conventional wisdom that we’re supposed to pay attention to. So to the extent people are hostile, it can be explained by these kinds of things, maybe, though I deliberatly paint a picture with a broad brush. Some people aren’t hostile, they just don’t like what they’ve heard which is fine. There’s a lot of music I don’t like but I make a point to not care if others like it. So its right to ask what about Giachinno makes this seemingly harder to do for some. - Adam

Its probably the score I know the least well of anything post-1970. The movie is very hard to watch and I've listened to the available recording so little that I can actually still be surprised by what I'm going to hear. Worth the money for me nonetheless in the absense of the original recording. - Adam