Adam

Empire Strikes Back Star Wars Return of the Jedi Revenge of the Sith Attack of the Clones Phantom Menace - Adam

Rebel Fleet, although I've always been bothered that part of the very nice transition is edited out in the movie. But I think Star Wars, ESB, AotC have the best finale music. The source music finales are OK. Victory Celebration is the only one I really enjoy but all of them are very good for their movies. - Adam

From a musical point of view, I was frustrated that a fair amount of music seemed to be taken out, especially in the beginning of the movie. Of course, there was all the tracking that has been mentioned. Its done better than the other prequels but its still a major scar on the overall score. On the positive side, I was impressed with the unreleased music. The initial unreleased battle stuff was kind of barried underneath the sound effects but what I heard was great. An early version of the force theme when a ship is taking off, I think, was really good. Even the smaller stuff like the dialog sequence with Anakin and Palpatine - at the opera thing, I think, caught my attention for being very effective. To the extent it may seem underwhelming, a lot of it has to play pretty brief segments so there isn't always a lot of time for development. If you factor in stuff that probably was taken out and JW saying he recorded a couple hours + of music, I'd imagine there's even more stuff to be heard. As a whole, I thought it was a very good score but a challenge keep track of with all of the edits and tracking. It ends up feeling like kind of a mess, to no fault of JW. Its unfortunate since my main interest at this point is the music and I think the film would benefit from an in tact score. The Anakin's Betrayal sequence was probably the most musically satisfying. The movie slows down and puts together a fairly artful way of telling that part of the story and it shows what JW can still do with the right material. Lots of other positive impressions with the music but also a sense of disappointment at the way his music continues to get represented in the actual film. As a movie, the first half really didn't do much for me at all. The second half had some very good moments but something still didn't feel right. How much was because of the movie, how much was my being taken out of the movie because of my concentration on the music and how much relfects my decline in taste towards all the Star Wars movies (outside of the music), I'm not exactly sure. Some combination of all 3, I guess. Glad that so many others like it, though. - Adam

Roeper was much more positive. He said it was the third best Star Wars movie. Ebert liked it but spent most of his short amount of time criticizing the dialog. They praised Natalie Portman, though, and then showed a clip where she seemed not that good. But its hard to tell from a short clip. - Adam

It would be interesting to hear JW address this because I don’t know if I’ve ever heard him talk about his evolution stylistically as a composer and yet its a very relevant question. I tend to think that sometimes what gets perceieved as a stylistic shift, can at least be partly explained by the evolution of movies. For example, action music from Empire Strikes Back to Return of the Jedi changes quite a bit and becomes more hectic but I think that’s at least partly due to the more hurried pacing and the busier visuals. And that kind of thing carries forward to a lot of his more recent action movies. Its not the only reason his action music has changed but its a factor I think. Then, of course when people talk about his more mature style it seems to me a lot of that is JW choosing to score more mature movies, in the 1990s for example. So there would be something wrong if that didn’t sound very different stylistically than the most of the stuff he scored from earlier. But there’s also obviously something in his compositional technique that evolves over time as I suppose it does for everybody if they keep trying to get better. I’ve heard others speak about that better than I can. I think there can be an attachment to the era like Miguel said but also to the movies themselves. Part of me thinks that if you reversed the movies and had him score his 90s films in 1975-1985 and score his 1975-1985 films in 1990s, many would regard his golden age as the 1990s. Its hard to know, but the earlier era happened to be a period when he scored many well-done, action/sci-fi films where music had to play a very big role. If you wanted to come up with a dreamlist of films for a film composer to build up a fanbase, you could do well to use those films. - Adam

Well, Jeshopk can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think his point was supposed to be the raw numbers of for vs. against but the fact that people who dislike one tend to dislike the other and visa versa. There may be a point there but the problem is that these kind of polls only tell you what a very select group of people who happen to be voting feel about something - in this case a pretty select choice of scores. So I don't think there's a lot that can be taken from it, no matter what the results, other than you get a snapshot of a very small group of people. Sometimes I think we forget that probably 99.9% of the world would prefer not to listen to Star Wars or Superman or The Empire Strikes Back or Harry Potter, etc. So none of us came to film music looking for vindication from others hopefully. But I understand the spirit behind what Jeshopk is saying becasue AotC is one of those scores that gets gratuitously insulted, usually without explanation. But the way I see it, if we can take pleasure from something others don't like, more power to us, and we can just ignore efforts to enforce an orthdoxy on what's OK to admire in music or film or whatever unless there's something substanitive to what the comlaint is against it. - Adam

With regard to Chase through Coroscant, the original plan was to only have Asian percussion and then Ben Burtt was going to show off his musical sound effects. JW, to his credit, ignored half of that request and incorporated Asian percussion along with more traditional full orchestra underscore, probably recognizing that the scene needed a full orchestral backing. So then Burtt had to change his sound design. So its a good example of JW coming to the rescue and making a bizarre decision by somebody else (why Asian percussion?) and compromising to improve it into something that works well with the film. But, yes, I imagine the answer to why they wanted Asian percussion is that they fell in love with the temp track and tested Burt’s ideas next to the score that you mention, most likely. And I agree that RotS has temptrack fingerprints on it as well but I’ll be anxious to see how the music works in their scenes. - Adam

I like that description - so true. Its the best musical sequence in the movie, which unfortunately doesn't have a lot. Beethoven's music ends up having the starring role in the movie but I was very happy to at least have the opening music released. - Adam

Well I cited an example where Leia’s Theme seems to appear in overt fashion with Luke and Leia’s Theme. So, yes, he makes connections - I just don’t think its the ones you mentioned which seem far too obscure, IMO. However, I’m not dogmatic about it and I said explicitly you might be right. In contrast you’re saying that you are “POSITIVE” that you are right but have given no evidence that you have special access to JW’s brain that we don’t have. There’s been lots of connections mentioned in discussions I’ve read including the ones you mentioned. Each case has to be judged on its own merits and its often a matter of different interpretations, I think. But no one denies the connections in Anakin's Theme to Darth Vader's Theme, for example, so therfore no one denies that he is capable of doing it. It doesn't mean I should go along with every example that is brought up. When JW has spoken about creating themes, he’s always stressed coming up with the right combination of notes that will connect with the audience and communicate the particular idea. I think the practical side of film scoring is generally what he stresses and that’s another reason I’m skeptical. In general, I think the Star Warsy aspect and connectedness of his themes comes mostly from his use of orchestration and his ability to tap into that intangible Star Wars texture in the arrangments. In fact, given that he’s written 6 scores of star wars music its remarkable to me how different his themes all are while still feeling connected to the same musical universe. - Adam

I’ve also always assumed that it wasn’t Williams but I can’t be 100% sure on that. I just remember thinking that it didn’t sound like him to me and also thinking it would be unlikely that he would have to write something original for that. With a serious, historical type picture, there’s every incentive to use original stuff from that era unless there’s some really unique requirement in the film. I agree with Morlock that the music works great in the film. Track 10 - the republican convention sequence as heard in the film is a great marriage of music and direction, I thought. Its a rare opportunity for the music to be more expansive and, like the score in general, he mirrors Stone’s ambivalent interpretation on Nixon. The music becomes sympathetic and ominous by turns depending on the specific imagery. But it all feels very unified and really brings that scene to life. Lots of effective music but that scene stands out the most for me. - Adam

If anything, Leia’s theme is alluded to pretty closely in the introduction at about :14- :20. That’s much more clear than what you cited, IMO. We can make educated guesses as what was in JW’s mind with many of the examples you cite but its just that, a guess. My guess in this case is that any similarity is coincidental (with the exception of the one I mentioned which seems more overt) but I could be wrong. And to the extent that you imply that one has to be a trained musician to notice, it persuades me even more it probably wasn’t intentional on JW’s part since I see his approach as being accessible and I think film music ought to be. - Adam

Lots of examples I can think of but since AotC is on my mind, the emotion JW is able to generate in the finale with a great arrangement of the love theme would be an example. That’s definitately a cue that gets a lot of repeat listening and is a highlight of the prequels scores for me. - Adam

I consider them both strong. The main overlap I see is that Anderton’s Great Escape sounds a bit like the action music in parts of AOTC. And then there is a somewhat similar mystery motif that gets used with both films with echoes of Bernard Herrmann. Most everything else feels pretty different for me with Minority Report being a lot grittier among other things. - Adam

Most of the criticisms of AotC seem based on people’s listening experience. But I know that there are also a lot of people who really like listening to it. And you can find lots of positive reviews at the time when it came out. But these kinds of personal reactions don’t tell us a lot - everyone is different. So the crucial question is how the score worked with the film and I can think of only a couple concrete cases where somebody has singled out JW’s music as not working for the film. Those may even be legitimate examples but its striking and revealing that there aren’t more examples cited because that is really the crucial basis on which to judge a score unless we take the view that JW’s job is to write a score that pleases me (whoever that is) and if he falls short, its a sign that he wasn’t inspired or is deteriorating or something like that. He wrote a love theme that conveys the tragedy and romance that was intended with the scenes. He wrote music to capture the mystery aspect of the story. And he payed attention to all the details that he usually does, both compositionally and in the specifics of the film. In short, he wrote a score that invokes Lucas's vision of AotC, for better or worse, with all of the unique limitations and opportunites that the film provided. If it were true this was a worse effort for JW (which I disagree with but am open minded about), my opinion of him would probably increase even more with the realization that an uninspired JW still writes such rich, complicated music that I can enjoy listening to so much. - Adam

Also, a big part of JW’s approach is to make his music accessible. I don’t think he generally goes for deep, complicated thematic connections where you’d have to be a musician to decipher things. One of the things I like about JW is that he uses his brilliance to very practical effect. He understands that film music has to operate in a very immediate, visceral way. People aren’t supposed to be paying attention to the music so it doesn’t do a lot of good to make vague musical connections. If a connection is meant to be there, it generally makes sense to be explicit about it so you can trigger a subconscious response in the audience. - Adam

90% is probably similar to AotC so hopefully that's not right. That would be, what, not quite 15 minutes of tracked music from the other prequels? That seems like a lot. - Adam

My point about DotF, Neil, is that based on JW’s comments he indicated that he went back on Lucas’s suggestion and extended it into a concert piece. So he left the impression that some of that material was written for the film before it got re-edited and then eventually it was just tracked in from the concert arrangment like you say, after the re-edits to the film. My only question with regard to the source is does he know for sure that DotF replaced something original? Hearing DotF doesn’t necessarily mean that it replaced his original writing but it might be clearer when we have a chance to see the film. - Adam

Its hard to know if this person's report is accurate but it would be a minor miracle if there weren't some pretty serious editing/tracking problems in the film. So on one hand I don't necessarily trust this report because there are reasons he might be mistaken. On the other hand, the prequels have set too bad a precedent for me to be very hopeful. So its better to prepare myself for the worst, I figure, and then maybe I can be pleasantly surprised. - Adam

I was surprised to enjoy watching this as much as I did although I didn't watch it all in one sitting. I think this is a great way to hear concert tracks. Instead of having incidental music supporting the movie, you get images supporting a major musical theme of the movie. It ends up being not only a great tribute to JW and his music but also to the movies themselves. The music speaks to the feelings of what has made Star Wars so popular. I found myself having more affection and nostalgia for the Star Wars movies than if I were to actually watch the movies. I think it would play even better, if it were shorter. Leave off some of the more incidental tracks which work better inside the actual film for me. The cues that work best for the DVD are cues that speak to some of the broad thematic ideas of the films. But that’s a small quibble since a person can easily skip that. - Adam

My assumption was that this was not a pure concert piece. And actually, DotF was not a pure concert piece either. He just expanded it into one. My guess is that BotH was mostly supposed to be used as underscore and that's one of the reasons it feels kind of disjointed because he keeps changing the pace to fit the action. The ending was probably later added, maybe a little more. The Force theme definitely sounds like underscore and it makes sense that it would go for that scene that Max mentioned. - Adam

I agree with Ray and John about an animated film. That's a genre where music is very important. It would be a different kind of opportunity and I'd like to see how he approaches that. Just about anything would be great, though. Even when he practically scored the same movie twice (Home Alone 2) he still gave us a lot of great stuff so I'm rarely disappointed by his decisions. - Adam

I’m actually relieved for some reason. The whole bonus track idea is very annoying and any disappointment I feel about not having more music seems to be cancelled out by the pleasure of knowing that Sony hasn’t offered anything so good that it would force me to have to go to Walmart or Target to buy the thing. Its such a manipulative marketing practice and its made worse by the fact that Sony seems to want to keep everyone in the dark about it, probably assuming that there will be more than a few people who belatedly get the news and will buy a second or third copy to get the bonus tracks. And even Walmart and Target waited, it appears, before announcing how lame the bonus tracks were, maybe figuring peope would be more likely to pre-order if they thought this would be like AotC. As it is, the JW interview will hopefully be transcribed and be easily available. So that’s easy to pass up and the other bonus track, no comment necessary. I’ll hold out hope for complete releases down the line. - Adam

I’m not ruling it out, its possible. Point is we’re still left to speculate. My own observations of his craft tell me he probably didn’t try to make those connections on purpose. This is somebody that used Leia’s theme when Ben died just for practical effect of having something sweeping. And in that case he actually spoke to it so I can say it with confidence. I don’t think he intellectualizes those kind of thematic connections to the degree that you have but I could be wrong. - Adam

I think the problem comes in trying to get inside the mind of Williams. There's a big difference between demonstrating a similarity and saying with any confidence that it was an intentional attempt by him to incorporate another theme. To the extent there are similarities, unless really obvious, I generally assume it was an accident. I don’t think we can be so confident in describing JW’s process in coming up with DotF unless we’ve heard him speak to that. And as far as I know, he hasn't in this case. Depending on how wide a lens we use, we can find similarities with all sorts of things. BotH and the Force theme both have a quasi-religious feeling to them but as far as the notes go, there’s very little similarity and no reason to believe he was trying to connect the two, IMO. - Adam

The advantage to the soundtrack over the Stage and Screen for me is that the original score was written for double the string section, I'm pretty certain. I like that very rich string sound of the original soundtrack. I also like the opening montage although its the baseball scene that I find to be more affecting. The music feels to me like a romantic ode to a lost innocence when he hits his homerun. Not a subtle movie but the advantage is that we get some great, non-subtle music like that. - Adam