Adam

The thing that is interesting to me is that the three themes mentioned sound similar but they all score American, patriotic, yearning for freedom types of scenes in their respective movies/documentary. So there's an almost formulaic consistency to the way he approaches his movies, though I don't mean that as critically as it maybe sounds. With Amistad you get the melody that is used with Cinque’s calls for freedom, often where the scenes wrap themselves in the American flag. One difference is that the theme has a syncopation in its melody that allows it to double as an African anthem in the chorus version. With The Patriot, the theme is associated with Mel Gibson and the patriots’ struggle for freedom. The difference is that its more bold and macho, like the movie. And, of course, you get the appropriate fife and drums version that recalls the revolutionary era. With American Journey, you get the montage of blacks and women struggling for freedom and, again, the scene wraps itself in the American flag. The difference is that the melody kind of bubbles up with attitude, giving it more of a populist, marching on the street kind of swagger. And it alternates with a motif that suggests roots in African American music. So what can seem like a little bit of retreading of material can just as well be seen as an impressive exactness in terms of how he marries his music to the movies. - Adam

The original Star Wars scores have that extra spark of epic mythology that the others don't have so I'll go with that. Its also nice that the 3 films are stylistically different enough that we get three different sounding scores that stand apart from one another as great scores but also feel unified with the continuity of story and themes. But they're all top-notch scores. I'd probably go with IJ as second, prequels 3rd and HP as 4th in terms of listening preference but its a close call. - Adam

Mostly from others I’ve read that Spielberg has played a role in furthering Giacchino’s career up to this point so it seems possible given that Spielberg has a positive view of him. But there’s definitely more established people out there so I don’t know. I'm hoping that this question won't arise for many, many years. Zimmer I don’t want to think about. He’s a good craftsman himself but from a musical point of view his music is kind of like cotton candy for me - it tastes good for awhile but then I get sick of it. There isn’t the depth in the arrangments to hold up to repeated listenings though I’ve by no means heard everything he’s done. There’s probably some stuff I’d feel better about. - Adam

I guess we're arguing partly because you misconstrued what I was trying to say. The verdict is still out with Giacchino, I agree. I was initially just expressing my opinion on the person I'm most interested to hear and I said that I don't know for sure who would do the best job. And I probably could have left the part off about him having his own voice because that's where the confusion started. I think a person can have a voice without having a recognizable style but somehow I don't think we want to get into that again. ( : - Adam

Alex, you’re making virtually no sense at all now. Can you name one time when I talked about the “recognizable style” of Giacchino? Once again, you’re resorting to demagoguery in place of substance. If you’re not serious about wanting discussion of this question than just say so. You’re treating this like we’re going to battle. And with each post you become more and more divorced from the actual discussion. Now you want to have a debate about my posting style? All those words that you object to are accurate and I take note that you didn’t disagree with the substance. If your implication is that people don’t talk like my posts in the real world, fair enough, and its completely irrelevant. I don’t talk like this either nor would I have intricate debates about some composer whose name I can barely pronounce. That’s one of the beauties of the message board. My intention is to get my point across clearly with the assumption that if you like discussion, you won’t care how something is said. If that bothers you, I don't know what to say. - Adam

Alex, it doesn’t make your point more clear to exaggerate someone’s views. It gives the impression of somebody who has to resort to distortion to try to gain the upperhand in an argument. And it weakens your point if you ask me. Far from not recognizing your rhetorical technique, I chose to call you out on it because I think its a dishonest way to try to make a point. And I won't sink to the level of your last comment which I guess is another one of your exaggerations to make a point. These aren't issues that warrant making it personal as you seem to have done. - Adam

First of all, you claim I called Giacchino a "legend" - indeed a shocking word for me to use if in fact I said it. Since I clearly didn't, I won't bother responding and I'll chalk that one up to your imagination. Credit to I believe ChrisAlfonso who actually looked into whether anybody on the board said he was the next Williams and the grand total was 1 person who later took it back. In other words, no one on the board now publicly calls him the next Williams. What generally happens is people express enjoyment and interest and a derire to hear more. Some people don't like that he sounds too similar to other composers. To each his/her own. There's really not any big disagreement that I see. I never claimed he had a sound that producers would reference. He's barely started his career, anyway. I merely spoke to the fact that he has a voice and his own creative imprint. In terms of The Incredibles there are plenty of differences between his sound and Barry's, a fact that gets overlooked with some of the quick dismissals of that score. Doug Adams has commented on some of them and I think there are others. "Copying" is a huge overstatement in this case, I think, and does a disservice to the kind of work that had to go into that score. And I can't comment on many of the other comparisons that get made (videogames mostly). - Adam

I think Williams voice is pretty evident and easy to distinguish. That's why craftsman like Gia are able to copycat it. Gia is known for many things, but having an own original voice isn't yet one of them. I'm sure it's there but it still has to come out. He's still a caterpillar waiting to become a butterfly. How beautiful this butterfly will be remains to be seen. ---------------- Alex Cremers When you talk about Giacchino copying Williiams, I assume you are talking about a specific type of score that JW does. Does Medal of Honor sound like Sleepers, Missouri Breaks, Images, etc., etc? I can’t really speak to his video game scores but I’m assuming not. Those scores are all Williams’ voice also. I think people are talking about a specific style of composition that is similar to a certain style of JW - in his action music, for example. And I disagree that its easy to copy him. Its not easy, IMO, which is why I think so few people have been able to do it. There were a lot of so-called copycat scores that came out after Star Wars that really didn’t sound anything like JW, IMO - one major reason being that part of Williams’ voice is being able to write consistently, high-caliber, rich compositions that are very difficult. And not many people can pull that off. The point about Giacchino’s voice is that, even aside from the nature of his assignments so far, like anybody, he has one. And I’m using an old JW quote to back me up on that where he talks about the importance of being versatile but acknowledging that there’s a compositional approach that is as inescapable as a person’s handwriting. In other words, no one is so completely versatile that they don’t bring their own sound into it, unless they are just literally plagerizing something. That's not to deny the similarites to other composers and I can certainly understand the gripe against him. I just react a little differently, at least in the case of The Incredibles and what little I saw with Lost on TV. - Adam

It would be a little bit depressing if JW couldn't score this. I can't say for sure who would do the best in his absense but I'd most be interested to hear Giachino's work. I saw The Incredibles again and I was better able to appreciate the job that Giachinno did. I’m much more interested to hear a new score by him than anybody else that’s working right now, except JW of course. There’s a technical side to film scoring that tends to get overlooked, with all the details of timing, rhythm and that kind of thing. I feel like he combines a better understanding of that side than most as well as being impressive musically and in his dramatic sensibilities. And Giachino, like any composer, does have his own voice. Its as unavoidable as a person having a certain handwriting, as JW has said. When JW deliberately does a pastiche of The Nutcracker in Home Alone, I still hear JW even if I’m also hearing Tchaivkosky. I don’t think its any different when I listen to The Incredibles, where part of the demands of the score was clearly to write music that sounded like a very specific style and genre from another era. - Adam

Actually, Spielberg is calling this the most realistic type of movie he's shot which is why there is speculation that this will be a much smaller type of score. EDIT : I'm speaking of course in the sense of the way its being shot - sort of documentary style. The premise is of course not realistic which is why this film could end up being a very interesting approach. The Independence Day approach we've seen already - this should be very different. - Adam

I'll vote for Anakin's Betrayal. There's a depth of feeling in that one that makes it stand out for me. BotH is up there also - very compelling music. - Adam

I didn’t intend to dismiss your post completely. And there wasn’t any anxiety or irritation or anything. I was partly speaking to the larger phenomenon where I’ve noticed a lot of reviews by other people citing theme connections that are highly questionable. The confession scene motif does show up in pretty much exact form in Anakin’s Betrayal. Assuming that wasn’t an unlikely coincidence, that’s an interesting carry-over for JW to use and, I agree with you, one could easily see how the connection would make sense. Its an interesting case of what seemed like a specific scene related motif suddenly taking on a larger significance in the wider story. Before, it just seemed like a really nice unreleased cue for AotC and he presumably didn’t even know he’d be returning to it. Great link for him to make, if intentional, and it I do think there is often more thematic unity in his scores than is first apparent. Both AotC and RotS represent a decline in what I would think of as major thematic material being introduced into the stories. But I think this was predictable, given the necessity to incorporate old themes and to keep the new ones in their proper context. Sort of like he’s perfectly capable of writing a strong, hit-you-over-the-head theme for Grievous but it wouldn’t really be in balance with the rest of the score. So we get the one that you mentioned, that is still very good but doesn’t stand out as thematic material like people might expect or want. It makes sense that the force theme, Vader’s theme, and BotH would represent the strongest thematic statements with the biggest emotional tugs. And then the whole new hope idea does get a good expression in Leia’s Theme in the end credits, though I would have preferred an original statement. But, anyway, its always fun to decipher these things. - Adam

I’m starting to notice a widespread tendency to notice themes even when they aren’t there. With other site reviews also. I think we want to think that JW is making all of these subtle and brilliant connections and there’s a sense of discovery when something has the ring of simlilarity to something else. I’ve done it occasionally myself and later felt less confident. I agree with THEfranz_conrad that it would be good to have track times because I think some of the ones you listed are very subjective; a matter of interpretation at best. I’ve noticed music in several instances very similar to the Confession scene in AotC also though, even there, I’m not exactly sure it was intentional. One occasion that I thought I heard it - track 13 towards the end - others hear a modification of the love theme And now its not clear to me one way or the other. It will help when we can see the film because it makes a difference to know how he was relating the musical ideas to the film. In general, although JW has been known to modify the notes of his themes, I think he usually keeps enough of the same structure and similarities so that its pretty clear that he’s making a thematic reference. It would sort of defeat the purpose to have a theme that is so pliable as to go virtually completely unnoticed. BotH is one that I haven’t heard, for example, outside the obvious cases. I listened to Anakin’s Betrayal again and I don’t hear it. I'm open-minded but just a little skeptical until something more specific can be cited. I think the criticism that there is less thematic cohesiveness than other Star Wars scores is valid probably for the album, although probably less so for the entire score once we get to hear it. And I don’t necessarily see it as a criticism, either. Its likely that his thematic choices will make sense in the context of the movie even if its not what some wanted as an album. - Adam

I call it Williams' true soul. It's his voice you're hearing, and not Stravinsky, Hanson, or all those other classic composers Williams is suppose to be stealing from. Of course, I could be wrong and Williams is merely doing a Herrmann. ---------------- Alex Cremers The Herrmanesque passages tend to be, I think, the suspenseful string writing. The part where the plot unfolds at the end, for example, makes me think of music to a Hitchcock film. But it still sounds like JW's voice. He's just conjuring up certain associations to good effect, as he often does. The New Beginning stands apart from the feel of the rest of the movie and score, to a certain extent, and I don't think he was trying to be at all Hitchcock-sounding with that. - Adam

That's funny because that escape theme still involuntarily gets triggered in my head if I tear off on my bike. Lots of situations where I might not be listening to the music but a situation will spring an accompanying musical association from one of his films. Some of them are too obscure to admit to. ( : - Adam

He may still be associated with more money-makers than any person in any major category, actor, director or otherwise. That would give his agent a good selling point. But Hollywood has a notoriously short memory span so it wouldn't surprise me if his stock has gone down somewhat since a lot of those hits were from quite awhile ago. - Adam

I don't see the Patriot love theme being very tragic, though the storyline in the film ends that way. I like them both but I listen to Across the Stars quite a bit more. - Adam

Bottom line is we don't know what goes on in the decisions. Writing wall-to-wall music is a huge task so its possible that he cuts corners because of the time constraints. On the other hand, Lucas wanted the Star Wars lifts in the cue Return of the Jedi after JW had already written something original. Its not hard to imagine that happening again. Plus, maybe it makes sense to have thematic consistency in the funeral music and the coroscant music. We have to see the film, but its possible that it will seem like the right choice. And the funeral music was reworked somewhat for whatever that's worth. With each new movie he has to draw on more preexisting themes and music to be consistent. TESB had Yoda's theme, Imperial March and Han and Leia all as important, prominent new music which helped the score carve out its own identity. By now, there's very little room for new thematic material. And what there is has to be subordinated to the major thematic material of Vader's theme, The Force theme, etc. So there's all sorts of factors that have to be kept in mind when evaluating the score. A lot of what you find disappointing might be constraints inherant in the project. . Finally, there's a lot of really good NEW music on the soundtrack and I'm guessing even more in the movie. So I don't sense that the problem is as bad as you make it sound. - Adam

This would be a great score to have an album for. Its very much in the tongue-in-cheek mode. Kind of a comedy/suspense score. There's a theme not on the main title that is my favorite - very dark with a catchy melody. Must have been one of his first times using electronics (in the bass I think). There's a brief reference to the driving/Psycho music which is kind of interesting to hear JW do. Very nice score, overall. Anyone know why an album doesn't exist for this? - Adam

Well I think electronics would have been apropriate if this movie had been the one we thought we would get, namely a futuristic sci-fi type of movie. But the reality is that this movie was much more in the tradition of a Hitchcock, film-noir style of film. So, as a result, JW gives us the dark, suspenseful noirish music with Hermanesque touches at times. So I think its a very appropriate score that served the film well. - Adam

Maybe we should start a petition saying that JW needs to quit taking one day off of a week. He should be working a 7 day schedule. But, really, we don't know the decision making process that goes into the recycled material. My guess is that Lucas had some specific ideas he wanted in there and there's some history to support that. Sequels are always morel likely to impose these kinds of decisions, anyway. Home Alone 2 had that aspect to it 13 years ago but it was pretty clearly a conscious decision to reuse pre-existing material, not JW getting too old. - Adam

I bring it up only because when there was a thread about a new theme for Anakin, that funeral cue and a couple others were used as an example of Anakin's new theme a long with AOTC music that you're talking about. Actually the music in AOTC with the solo trumpet sounds very similar in the beginning to the motif for his mother in AOTC and first used in TPM though I don't see that as deliberate necessarily. - Adam

I believe the AotC theme for Anakin can be heard on the RotS album. Check Palpatine's Teachings from 2:05 - 2:13. quote] Well, that's a good ear, I hadn't noticed that. But I think it sounds somewhat connected to the part in AOTC where Palpatine is talking to Anakin early in the film. But I never really heard much of a connection from that to the funeral scene, for example. So it doesn't all add to one theme for Anakin to me. If you compare the cue you referenced with the funeral, I don't think there's a whole lot to unify them. And the other cues that John linked up for us have the solo french horn that bears a resemblance to the funeral music but not really the eerie trumpet music. So I'm not so sure about it. - Adam

Well yes there is the literal using of Boba Fett's theme but the part about him extracting that out into the rest of the cue seems questionable. Boba Fett's theme has a very specific musical identification. And the other music, if anything, returns to that progression I've been mentioning for the Imperial March. So I don't see much of a connection. But, again, these are questions of interpretation. If he didn't know for sure, he should have qualified his statement in the liner notes. And if he did know for sure, it would be interesting to know what info. he had access to that we don't. - Adam

The parts of the score that wore on me are the parts of the movie that seemed overdone. The main theme had to be bold, macho, American sounding with that yearning for freedom feel and it had to communicate all of that in a few seconds. So its very effective for the movie but its just not my cup of tea musically. And there is still a lot of very good underscore. The action music for the second half of track 10 (or is it 11) is one of my favorites. Love theme is great. Elegaic music is very nice. Lots of good stuff not on the soundtrack as usual. I listen to it a fair amount. - Adam