Adam

The liner notes mentioned Boba Fett's theme being used in the Cloud City music and, to me, that's an example of why liner notes aren't necessarily correct. Unless the person writing the liner notes has access to information that we don't, its just one person's interpretation which we can try to verify for ourselves. I basically agree its not a coincidence but I think its more of a general allusion to Imperial March as opposed to a quote of the theme for reasons I stated. It seems like he's referencing the progression in the form of climatic orchestral hits. If he meant to reference the theme all he would have had to do would be add the last two last notes of the phrase. But we don't know for sure. - Adam

I realize now people are talking about the low end orchestra crashes. Its the same chord progression that you'd hear if the melody was going on on top. In other words the bass note of the chords for that theme happens to be the same as the actual theme. So I think its more of a reference to the progression than it is to the theme. Otherwise you'd want to quote the first 6 notes presumably rather than cut off the phrase. But, also, these kinds of things are matters of interpretation - we can't really know unless JW speaks to it. I feel the same way about a possible new theme for Anakin in AOTC. There's enough differences and similarities that a reasonable person could intepret it either way. I'm skeptical but I can definitely see where people are coming from. - Adam

Yeah, I like those. The BotH theme in track 9 is another highlight for me and I'm gradually getting used to ESB stuff so it could end being a very solid track overall. - Adam

Well I'm pretty sure it was only written into the film one time (elevator sequence?) and tracked in later (TPM version I think) - maybe the mediation scene outiside. I like the end credits version but was disappointed it wasn't actually used in the film, if my memory serves me correct. - Adam

JW is certainly talented enough to arrange it in a way to sound different but I think at that point it sort of loses its purpose. I think its a similar logic that led him to abandon some of his Harry Potter themes. It seems less thematically consistent but, as a practical matter, probably serves the film better. He did use Anakin's theme once, I believe, in AOTC not counting the tracked sequence and, who knows, maybe it will be in RotS as well. - Adam

If there's one cue whose stock has risen the most for me its Anakin's Betrayal, track 4. Initially, I was distracted by its similarities to The Patriot church burning. But now that I'm more familiar with it, it really stands on its own as a very beautiful piece. - Adam

I was going to say that the Jabba quote is too overt to be called hidden but I guess KM is proving me wrong on that. ( : - Adam

The Emperor's theme tends not to change very much from cue to cue so I could see JW not including it very much on the album even if it appears quite a bit in the film. I guess that kind of happened with TPM with all of the Emperor/dialog sequences. I was surprised to get the direct ESB lifts of Vader's theme for what I assume is a very crucial scene. I doubt that was JW's choice but hopefully it works well in the film, at any rate. Anakin's theme has been mentioned in other threads but I can understand that JW would barely use it after TPM since the theme is supposed to capture sweetness and innocence and Anakin is nothing like that after the first movie. - Adam

I think that was probably a case of a temp track that JW followed pretty closely but I could be wrong. But with regard to the thread title, I've always thought that he was just connecting the finale to that chord progression that gets used so much in the movie. So maybe its a slight allusion in the same way that he uses that progression without actually using the theme at other spots in the movie. But the actual notes are slowed down and using only the first 4 notes would be odd. It just seems like punctuating the orchestral hits with the top note - which happens to be the notes to the theme. But if you wanted to quote the theme you wouldn't cut off the phrase mid-way especially for the grand finale. But maybe someday he can speak to that and confirm it one way or the other, if he still remembers. - Adam

If it works in the film, I'll be Ok with it. But if KM is looking for excuses, I'd say Lucas makes a good one. There's some history to go on to suggest that Lucas can be very particualr about certain ideas existing in his scores. I wouldn't be surprised if JW mostly forgot the music to TPM and would have went in his own direction if given the opportunity. But it will be interesting to see how it works in the film because the force theme was used in TPM to comment specifically with the dialog. So if the theme just seems in there to be in there that would be disappointing because it meant that JW either chose not to change it around enough to fit or felt obligated to keep it in there to satisfy Lucas. Ideally, you could satisfy what Jeshopk is saying, but modify it, maybe give it a middle section so its not just repeating itself twice. Something like that, I don't know. But we'll see how it works in the film. Maybe the look is so deliberatly like TPM that it would seem wrong not to keep the consistent theme. - Adam

Your response is on point but, again, I think we would need to have something like the RottenTomato Meter or whatever its called. That would give a very wide overview of all the critical reaction. Right now I'm sure its in the 90s but its using a lot of reviews that came later for the rerelese and that kind of thing. And the reviews talk about what a phenomenon it was. Its not that I discount the thesis in the article - in fact I would be amazed if Star Wars wasn't better reviewed on the whole as compared to the prequels. On the other hand, I'm open to the idea that there was still a quite a bit of criticsm at the time that we don't hear about now. I'm sure somebody has investigated this, its just a matter of finding it. I think its open question until somebody can cite something more complete. - Adam

The issue with Ebert was brought up by the article. He selectively used quotes that fit his thesis. I happen to think his thesis is probably correct, although maybe less so then he tries to pretend, but its not convincing to quote a handful of critics and make it seem like that represents some sort of critical consensus. Using Ebert?s criticism of AOTC works against the author because Ebert liked TPM. So a person could just as easily select quotes in a way that made it seem TPM was a very well-received film and, look, even Ebert thinks so. That would be equally unconvincing. I just want to know what percentage of professional reviewers didn?t like Star Wars when it FIRST came out - emphasis on first. I think it might give some interesting answers and maybe there?s some truth to Lucas?s statement that a lot of critics didn?t like that film. Of couse, its not surprising when critics and the academy jump on the bandwagon down the line after it becomes a huge phenomenon. Nor would it be surprising if the critical voices that existed at the time felt it was better to slink away quietly and not bring up their initial criticisms, however valid they might be. That would later create what you call a living consensus that maybe wasn't there when it first came out. Or maybe that didn?t happen but the point is that that article doesn?t really help get to the bottom of it. - Adam

Seeing the movie always helps for me because I can begin to appreciate the score better on its own terms and I no longer notice all the things it isn't. Also, the jarring stuff will start to seem normal if you listen to it enough (which is not exactly the most ringing endorsement I've ever given). I try to guard myself against too many expectatons but there's always part of my brain that thinks that the next score could be the greatest music to ever grace the face of the earth. And with this movie, the hype was more intense than usual. I'm starting to feel like this is very good music, something I'll be listening to a lot. But I'm also adjusting myself to the fact that this is a score that falls well within the range of the other prequel scores for me. Which leads me to believe that this film wasn't as much of the great opportunity that I thought maybe Lucas would find it in himself to pull off. Better than the others musically in some ways but in other ways lacking something the others had. Pretty much what I guess I should have expected. Of course there's the usual caviet that we don't know about the other music and I'm by no means writing off the film just from this - I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. - Adam

My more hopeful interpretation, which might not be correct, is that JW likes to program his discs for variety to a certain extent and tracks 6 and 8 are opportunities to present a different sound to mix up the overall experience. So he presents that so we don't overdose on 70 minutes of typical Star Wars sound. - Adam

Well, with the 60 minutes interview he admitted it bothered him but that he had to make the films how he wanted or something like that. It would be interesting to have a more scientific survey of what the reviews were at the time of Star Wars. Something like the RottenTomato meter (the rating is high now but its pretty much all reviews after the fact). I like the article but it seems too ancedotal to be convincing. Roger Ebert disliked AOTC but he liked TPM, for example, so he?s probably not the best spokesman to support the author?s case. While I think the reviews were probably better than the prequels, it wouldn?t surprise me if there was quite a bit of critical reaction at the initial release of Star Wars. So there may be something to what Lucas is saying. I know that the films don?t work for me like they used to and there?s a large percentage of the population that never got into these films at all - females, to a large extent, for example. Even the people involved didn't realy anticipate the chord that Star Wars would strike so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of critics missed it too, initially. RotJ is the most controversial because, as the author admits, the film did in fact make a lot of money and I suspect audience satisfaction was pretty high if they were measuring that kind of thing back then. And to the extent that fans have pretty strict and often different expectations about what a true Star Wars movie would look like, there?s bound to be some backlash. I remember looking at some old ESB reviews saying that the fun was no longer there from the first film, etc., etc. And I could sort of see where the critics were coming from though I disagree with the conclusions. And my sister said the only real human emotion she felt in TESB was generated by a non-human, Chewbacca, as he comes to the aid of Han. There again I could sort of see her ironic point about the depth of the Star Wars characters even if its my favorite movie of the series. So there ought to be some critical reviews to the original triology that refelcts different perspectives - the films seemed sacrosanct as a child but I don?t think they?re THAT good. But, yes, they?re better than the prequels, IMO, so I guess if that's his main point, I would agree. - Adam

That's exactly what I was thinking. Track 4 is a little too closely structured like the church burning sequence in The Patriot. Its got the choir and its a little more dramatic with plenty of differences but the development is sort of uncanny. The Tibetan Monks from Seven Years in Tibet make an appearance in track 6. - Adam

I feel like I need physically have the actual soundtrack. I?m hoping I?ll get a better sense of the score?s overall sound if its in better sound quality. Probably a matter of hearing it more, too. - Adam

Yeah, I'm liking it more and more, too. It has something in the melody and rhythm that is a little bit disjointed but it kind of sneaks up on you that way. It makes it feel like the rapid fire action is going on underneath with the orchestra and the emotion (choir) rises above it with a mind of its own. And, again, he throws in that very brief but exciting, swashbuckling secondary theme that is balletic, if that?s the right word. Very dramatic but kind of fun, too. Its a great example of JW?s ability to describe the the story in a way you almost don?t need the visuals. - Adam

EDIT : Never mind, somebody's on top of it

Emperor's Theme is in there one time and probably more in the total score.

I've been trying to get my thoughts around the score and not very well. Partly, I have to keep coming back to the fact that half the score or so isn't on the album. Also, lots of the choices JW makes or has made for him aren't evident until we can see the film. Its also necessary from the point of view of judging the score as it was intended, to serve the film. But as an album, there's a nagging sense that something is missing and its probably not just the unreleased music (or the two cues I can't download). I think it may be something in the limitations of the film, which asked him to rely a lot on his previous material. There's not enough of an opportunity for new themes to come to the fore and give the score its own identity. So there is maybe a kind of hodgepodge effect, like you're getting good individual cues but it doesn't form one coherant unified score. But this is all premature and, again, I suspect the film and Lucas can go a long way towards explaining that. From a musical point of view, he's still writing amazingly complicated, rich, difficult music. Its possible that from a creative point of view, he's not connecting the way he used to but I'm not at all convinced of this. I'm open-minded about it and I don't think my perception is the end-all, be-all but its just not at all clear to me. - Adam

Yeah, the scoring report has JW dissing Lucas by using Battle of the Heroes instead of DotF but when Lucas asks him about it JW assures Lucas it will come later (or before, I can?t remember). Least that's the way I remember it. BotH has the epic/cosmic struggle aspect of DotF but with the emotional tug of tragedy and heroism. And that secondary motif that comes in is almost like music scoring a dance number, only its probably the choreography of the lightsaber duel. Its the kind of music that could really bring the scene to life. Let's hope that Lucas agreed to keep it in. - Adam

Track 7 is one that won't download for me. I do like Anderton's Great Escape although I can't argue he's breaking new ground or that it doesn't bare similarities to other tracks he's written. Its hard for me to see JW making the decision to go back to the stuff from ESB for track 9. Here again, I?m guessing Lucas wanted to make some connection to the earlier films. Sort of like he does with repeating the same dialog from the original triology in the prequels. If you?ve ever heard him talk about it, he seems to pat himself on the back a lot for that kind of thing. Track 13 seems to hint at the motif that?s used in the very good unreased cue to the confession scene in AOTC. That?s the more subtle kind of reusage that I?m inclined to associate with Williams. The precedent that we know about would be to compare the Return of the Jedi track when JW had a go at it and the more literal lifting of Star Wars music that we heard after Lucas had his say. - Adam

Oh, we know.....WE KNOW! Probably, but a devil's advocate could say that JW hasn't written new music for the end credits for any of the prequels and the new film didn't provide a lot of new material for him to put in there, so being the last film he put in the one new concert track from the film and then linked it with the original Star Wars movie, maybe thinking that's what fans wanted to hear and also its a celebration of the Star Wars journey and a way to drive home the point that we've gone full circle. Its possible without any confirmation otherwise. Still, I'd put my money on GL being the driving force behind that. - Adam, who loves the epilogue to the Fury!!!!!

The beginning of the end credits does feel too slow but I think JW felt he had to do it because of the way the film ended - it might have seemed jarring to go from the slow musical fade to a hyper end credits. Problem is we?ve all used to it at a certain pace so it kind of bothers me to hear it slower. Leah?s theme seems overhyped now from the initial scoring reports. Its the concert arrangement in the end credits and its a rather small new quote in the finale. Love the new battle theme - it goes all out in the melodramatic, epic-tragic direction with the exciting orchestra work underneath. I also like what seems like a secondary, swashbuckling motif that get thrown in there. DotF is probably in the film but not on the soundtrack so I'm assuming we'll get both in the movie. I?m also not a big fan of the throne room inclusion, though the one minute relfective version of the force theme seems appropriate. We may never know if this is the kind of specific inclusion that Lucas wanted or if JW thought it was the way to go. I sort of suspect the former but its hard to know. Some of the trasnsitions in track 9 and other places seem less than smooth though that can partly be a funcion of hearing familiar music intermixed with new music and being suprised when it goes in another direction. Overall I?m enjoying this a lot. As always, hearing it with the film will be the real test. - Adam