Frosty
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Posts posted by Frosty
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How bout David Ogden Stiers of M.A.S.H. to play Williams.
Good choice!!!!
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I'm a trombone player as well. I think trombone players have an advantage because they get to hear more inner parts in pieces as opposed to melodic instruments like clarinets or trumpets. Nelson Riddle was a trombone player, he arranged for Frank Sanatra. Our beloved John Williams was also a trombone player (although he says he was very amateur at it). So you are in good company.
Have fun writing.
Frosty
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Bracket them according to type, then "sub" bracket them according to instrument. i.e Bracket all Ww's, brass prec, strings, etc, then bracket Flts/Picc, Oboes/ E.H, Clars, etc.
Pianoman, if worse comes to worse, I can get you a reading of your piece. Being a band teacher, I can give you a reading and even suggest some things that can make it easier for the players.
A nickle's worth of free advice: Make it as easy for the players to play as you can.
That doesn't mean don't write difficult music. It means make it as easy and straight forward as you can to insure the best possible performance. Make the parts as uncluttered as possible, DO NOT put measure numbers under each measure. Give rehearsal markings (preferably at the beginning of phrases). Put page turns in very convenient spots, such as rests or sustained notes. Look at published parts and see how they do things. Remember paper is cheap, don't be afraid to use paper.
Next piece of advice: Write like there isn't a tommorow!!!
I remember the first piece I wrote for band, and it had everything plus the kitchen sink and plumbing in it. Did it work? Maybe about 65%. Believe it or not, players do sympathize with new composers and they will tell you what can and can't be done (which is different than the individuals techinical abilities i.e if a trumpet player tells you he can't double tongue, that doesn't mean all trumpets can't double tongue.) I once had a student ask me what the lowest and highest note an Alto Sax can play. He came back with a part that was impossible. He had the lowest and highest notes in 16th notes at a fast Allegro. The Sax player looked at it and laughed. Ranges aren't the only thing to worry about. Technical demands are also warranted. Brass fatigue faster when playing sustained notes. Clarinets are notoriously out of tune. Other things you will discover as you write.
Last piece o' advice: If your instrument is piano, DO NOT write for the piano. That was Prokofiev's problem. Write for other instruments. You already know how to write for piano, that's not the problem. Learn to write FOR other instruments. You say you have good friends in the music class you're in. Write for them. Get to know each instrument intimately. A lot of that will come from books, yes, but writing for them lets you develop your palatte and tunes your ear to the specific "color" of the instrument. Prokofiev was a notorious orchestrator because he wrote for piano and then assigned parts to the instruments, Hindemith, on the other hand, wrote sonatas for every instrument he wrote for. Why? So he could become as intimate as he could with each instrument. He even tried to learn how to play each instrument so he could understand them better. And it shows too. Ask any professional orchestral musician who is easier to play: Prokofiev or Tchaikovsky. 99% will say Tchaikovsky not because they like Tchaikovsky any more or less than Prokofiev, it because Tchaikovky wrote FOR the instrument, not for the piano then orchestrated from there. I'm not saying learn to play each instrument, but become very familiar with their sound and capabilities. Just because you drive a car with automatic transmission doesn't mean you should just drive a car with automatic tranmission. Learn how to drive a manual tranmission, could be as much if not more fun...
Take this advice at face value. Having been through all of it and continuing to go through all of it doesn't make me an expert, just experienced. I have written for MANY ensembles, and a big part of the fun is figuring out colors and balances within a small group, a medium size group, a orchestra with chorus. You can't figure that out from just writing for piano then translating to whatever ensemble you want. You will deal only with the strength of the piano. Orchestrating it for whatever ensemble will be a waste of time because it could be easier and more successfully performed on the piano. Write for other instruments. Get your ears attuned to those colors, then what will happen is that instead of hearing just piano and saying, "This would sound good on a flute..." you will hear the flute immediately and write a piece knowing the intricacies and gestures of a flute, not a piano piece that happens to be played on the flute.
Catch my drift? 25% of writing for instruments comes from a book. 75% comes by writing.
Write, write write....
Frosty
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Maybe he wasn't a Pulitzer Prize winner when he visited your university, but Corigliano just won a Pulitzer for a symphony. I can't recall the title, but it was written as a response to AIDS. I heard bits and pieces, and it's quite moving.
Did he win for his 1st symphony "Of Rage and Remeberance"?
I didn't think he did...I'll have to double check.
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Yes it is, my bad.
I do have the scores to Adams' Harmonielehre and Harmonium. Both are available to purchase, just not on the same CD.
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The university I attended has a distinguished composer series where 1 or 2 well respected and renowned composers come and give lectures along with concert of their music. They have been trying for about 3 years to get John Williams, but he has been unable to attend due to his schedule.
Other composers I've met: Harrison Burtwistle, John Corigliano, Lou Harrison, Thea Musgrave, Charles Wourinen, Leon Kirschner, Shalamut Ran. (Most of the above are Pulitzer Prize winning composers, except for Corigliano, Wourinen)
Very informative and interesting.
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Both were very friendly and easy to approach.
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It very rare that I agree with Hobgood, but I must agree on this account. These "classical" musicians (which I am one) should know that the majority of the music they perform are from operas. Operas were the cinema of the day. When an opera was premiered, it rivaled the Hollywood premiers of today. Cinema is a direct descendent of opera. Were opera composers writing to further the state of the art? Nope. They were there to entertain, as is all people involved with films. Movies had overtures attached to them up until roughly 25 years ago. Is that by accident? Opera overtures are a staple of the classical repetoire because they are POPULAR!!!! Yes folks...POPULAR MUSIC. All opera was and is is POPULAR MUSIC. But these "classical" musicians raise it to some great height of worldly ivory tower-ism and anyone that disagrees is an idiot and doesn't know anything. Operas were not written for the musicians, they were written for the masses to come out and enjoy themselves on a Saturday night. It was mass popular entertainment.
Sound familiar?
I think that film music does the same thing as opera. It tells you where to go and how to feel. Remember that there was as many crap opera as there are crap films being made, but who remebers the scores to these crap operas? Why aren't they part of the repertoire?
Granted operas were a composers medium with a little more input into the creation of drama and such, but that doesn't lower the status of film music. I think that film music has as much right to repertoire as opera music, and has as much value. Then again you don't want to hear crap film music any more than you want to hear crap opera music, and some film music doesn't lend itself to concert performance, just as any opera aria or song or music doesn't make sense out of continuity or by itself in a concert.
So keep that in mind, true believers. If you want to debate the legitmatcy (sp) of film music, compare it to opera and go for the gold.
Frosty
Who still thinks that Hobgood is an idiot, but sun shines on dogs.....
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I met John Adams and had a composition lesson from him. One of his big influences is actaully Schoenberg (where Adams' piece "Harmonielehre" got its name). He is quiet and unassuming and makes no pretense on what he does. HE believes he hasn't stretched any harmonic boundries but feels compelled by fast rhythms and slow harmonic changes. He is very thoughtful and very well read and has some very fascinating views on the "state of the art".
I have also met Steve Reich, who is quite the opposite from Adams. HE has a terrific sense of humor, doesn't take himself to seriously, has a good time and absolutely hates the Second Viennese School (Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, etc.) Is very passionate and yet laid-back. He likes the chamber aspect more than the full orchestral forces that Adams uses. A very fascinating character.
I enjoyed my time with both.
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Can they do a CG Graham Chapman to do Arthur again?
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My god, man....
I nearly pissed myself laughing at this... LOL
ROTFL :biggrinflip: 
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I think most people don't like it because it doesn't have memorable themes that you can clean the house too. I personally love the score and listen to it quite often.
Frosty
Who likes "Nixon" as well.
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Absolutely. The theme is by Max Steiner, lifted right out of his score for "The Adventures of Don Juan" -- previously recommended by me
(see above). It was also used in the George Hamilton not-sure-what-to-make-of-it comedy "Zorro, the Gay Blade."Unless I'm very much mistaken -- and it's been years since I've seen it -- the film clip shown on the television set in "Goonies," with the pirate riding his blade down a sail, is not from "Don Juan," but from a much earlier film, one of Douglas Fairbanks' great silents, "The Black Pirate." I highly recommend it, especially if you enjoy the work of Howard Pyle. Some of the scenes, especially when Fairbanks is marooned on an island, look exactly like Pyle's illustrations come to life.
Thanks
Frosty
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Williams' Trumpet concerto is him being a little less melodic, more experimental (but diatonic). Worth listening too, along the lines of the cello concerto.
Frosty
(who is writing his own trumpet concerto)
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:?:
In "Goonies"' there is a "swashbuckling" theme when they escape the ship at the end. I know that is not Dave Grusin, is it Steiner of am I out to lunch.
Does anyone know?
Thanks
Frosty
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I use 9 staves to compose for orchestra. I like the extra room and I can see whats happening a bit more, but I also experiment from time to time trying to get notes on less staves. I haven't made it work yet...
Frosty
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Triplets are triplets. Williams uses triplets in a very flowing passages, but uses duples in fast, energetic pieces (with some notable exceptions). Williams also uses triplets as a contrast from duples as well. In "Harry's Wonderous World" in the middle, flowing section, it feels like it is in three, but is actually written with triplets in 2/4 time. Listen to the bass pizzicatos and notice that they remain in 2 while most of the orchestra above is playing quarter note triplets. Very cool stuff.
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What has been left out is that John Williams HIMSELF was once an orchestrator for types like Dmitri Tiomkin and possibly Alfred Newman (not sure on that one, Newman had a ton of orchestrators), was an arranger for Vic Damone and Frank Sinatra and Mihalia Jackson and was a studio musician for years, and wrote weekly scores for TV programs and such for roughly 10 years before working on films and becoming big.
Think about it this way: No matter who Williams orchestrator(s) is(are), it always sounds like John Williams. His concert works, his film scores, all sound like John Williams.
Can you say that about Kamen, Elfman (who has had 1 main orchestrator) Zimmer? You can say that even though Arthur Morton died some years ago, Goldsmith's scores still sound like Goldsmith. Why? Goldsmith orchestrates as he writes. So does Williams.
Don't let the name fool you. Some orchestrators do make the composer, but not in Williams or Goldsmith's cases.
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1941, in "Battle for Hollywood" where the tank with Aykroyd and the army guys starts moving and there is a small march/fanfare replete with Williams signature "major 7th" chords in the horns and strings, taken over by trumpets for a brief qoute, and never heard again.
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Williams reference in Tom Clancy's "Sum of All Fears" (the novel)
It was how the captain of a destroyer told his troops the fight was on by playing "Star Wars" on the intercom.
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I don't think he did when the Patriot came out because Lockhart conducted the Patriot on the A&E special that year with a drum and fife corp.
Frosty
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It depends on the sound he wants.
Listen to the theme from the "Lost World". At one point he has all trombones play a 'pedal' A, which is 3 ledger lines below the bass clef staff.
It gives it a dark, heavy, growling tone. (same thing happens in Hedwig's Theme)
Take the low brass and low string hits in "Olympic Fanfare and Theme". It is scored for 3 tenor trombones and 1 bass trombone and 1 tuba. Tenor bones play their note with tuba and bass trombone an octave lower.
The opening fanfare in Liberty fanfare is trumpets, horns and bones playing in their upper registers, a very majestic, solid sound. Tuba then adds to the bottom of the forray, but its last note is a D above middle C, which is the extreme upper register of the instrument.
A lot of times, a bass trombone will double the tuba for some reinforcement, adding an edge to the tuba tone.
Being a trombone player and composer and studying Williams scores for years, Williams low brass writing is actually evolved quite a bit over the years. Williams has a tendency to either score for 3 or 4 trombones (Liberty Fanfare scored with 3 bones, and Raiders march scored with 4 bones), but only 1 tuba. Goldsmith actually has scored many pieces with 3 bones and 2 tubas (Alien being a prime example) and 6 horns, which makes a completely different sound than Williams 4 horns, 3 bones and 1 tuba scoring. Williams competely uses the upper range of the trombones definitely. Thats how he gets that bright, beautifully majestic brass sound. It is NOT Trumpets and French horns only doing the fanfare stuff. It is usually trumpets and trombones and octave apart with horns filling the middle. You can hear the difference. Most composers use only Trumpets and French horns for their fanfares and you can tell it doesn't have nearly the power if you were to add Trombones to it (Trumpets and Trombone have the same range, only an octave apart) Trombones are more agile than you realize, but not as agile, and their tone is beautifully warm and full. You get a Trombone playing in it middle to upper register, you will be hard pressed to distinguish it from a French Horn playing in the same register.
A trombone has a 3+ octave range (some players go way beyond that), but the tuba actually has the greatest range of any instrument in the orchestra (French Horns a close second, but a French Horn is actually a alto/soprano tuba), with nearly a 5 octave range, plus the agility of a Trumpet or French Horn. But mainly it is a bass reinforcing instrument.
Hopefully shedding a bit more light.
Frosty
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THAT sounds better. I figured it had something to do with scheduling, but wasn't sure. I don't mind that as much. Could be worse.
Frosty
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Sorry to leave everyone hanging, but I do have Han Solo and the Princess and ALL of the Asteroid Field. Come to think of it, I have the entire Empire Strikes Back Suite, complete, along with the original Star Wars Suite, which includes the Final Battle, the Little People, Here they come, etc...
There could be some negotiations for trade here...
Think about it.
Frosty
Film composers' favorite composer
in General Discussion
Posted
8O
Well put, Figo.
The films themselves have gotten away from a theatrical influence and have come into the "how many images can we bombard people with in as short amount of time as possible". God forbid that Michael Bay hold on an image for more than 1 1/2 seconds. I think even Lucas has fallen into that trap. People nowadays can only process information in 3-minute incriments, less people become bored with it. Composers don't have time to build anything let alone something meaningful.
I think Goldsmith's work lately shows what can happen to even the best. His scores have become simplified to the point that it almost sounds like he tries to put it off as long as possible, like he's alomost bored with the process. Goldsmith hasn't scores a movie in the last 10 years that I think he has been really interested in or pushes him into a place where he can become the Goldsmith of old again. There is no lacking in Goldsmith's talent, just interest.
Williams on the other hand, has been able to write his own ticket and choose things that will push him in different areas.
As a medium, film scoring has suffered because the films themselves aren't that interesting to begin with. I sight XXX as an example: 'tis CRAP!!! Why should I care? I don't care about explosions and falling off of bridges and escaping avalanches anymore. Waste of time. No substance what-so-ever. Hey, even I am a fan of escapism, but there are times I wish I could escape from the crap that I'm bombarded with. 3-minute blips again. No composer can distiguish themselves these days because there isn't time to do it. The craft itself has been lost and most composers aren't trained well enough to be interesting. There is no time to be interesting. Anything over 2 1/2 hours is considered an art film and doesn't make money because theatres can't fill the seats. Whatever happened to movies like "Seven Samurai"? A 3 hour movie where you are drawn into it and never let down until the end credits. Movies like "Pearl Harbor" are made. A 3-hour piece of shit that is an insult to everything that happened at Pearl Harbor, and Michael Bay has the balls to say thats how it happened!!!
What can composers do in a medium where the majority of films are made to bombard the eyes, numb the brain, make us go deaf with explosions and then feel sad about a character with as much depth as a empty shot-glass? The composers can try, even when the obnoxious pop tune that has nothing to do with the movie obliterates that feeling 2 seconds after it happens.
Sad days, my friends :?