Falstaft

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Hi everyone,
 
I just attended an open rehearsal of tomorrow's Boston Pops concert (with the maestro himself conducting!). It's going to feature the world premiere of "The Adventures of Han," as well as Pops premieres of "Rebellion is Reborn" and the new "Han Solo & the Princess" arrangement.
 
I've got a lot to say about the new Solo piece, which I'm sure we'll all be poring over soon enough. But I thought I'd just share this much -- you're going to love it. It's complex, substantial, and memorable. There's some impossibly virtuosic trumpet writing in the middle that is especially impressive, very much in the vein of "Rey's Journey" from TLJ, only even more elaborate. In fact, the whole piece feels like a hybrid of straight-forward character themes (themes--yes, there's two) and action set-piece. I noticed some welcome shades of the ostinatos from "I Can Fly Anything" and the little recurring octatonic motif from "The Battle of Crait." 
 
If it's using this thematic material, I imagine Powell's score should be a real barn-burner!

Are you sure about that? These are 3 very clear, different ideas to my ears. Can you provide notations to prove your statement's accuracy? Because it sounds like you're just trying to talk down Williams' writings on TLJ (as usual) by flagrantly disregarding these separate ideas as "duplications."
 
'Resistance Under Siege' Motif
 
Holdo's Theme
 
Recurring Action Motif
 

Its worth mentioning that Lehman very astutely refers to it as an "incidental" motif, i.e. not really a leitmotif, but some kind of incidentaly-recurring gesture. The same, I think, can be said for the gesture you are refering to for R2D2.
 
Its tricky with Attack of the Clones because it may be the score that Williams himself has said the least about, so there's less to go on from the point of view of authorial intent, outside of "Across the Stars".
 
That being said, I think there is something to be said for Williams using what is effectivelly the same gesture as his "Separatist motif" for Voldemort in Chamber of Secrets - its evident that it was a "villain's theme" in his mind. So that counts.
 
I would also argue that, from the point of view of arranging the album, the fact that he chose to edit the opening track so extensively such that it features the Kamino motif as heavily as it does, is evidence that he concieved that as a leitmotif, too, and intended to present it as such on the album.
 
Other than that - and maybe the returning Shmi material - we don't have much to go on, though. I don't really doubt, for example, that the "Courting on Naboo" music is intended as a secondary love theme, but beyond that? who knows? 
 
The tracking in the film sure doesn't help, because it can make you hear recurring themes all over the place, only to find out it was tracked...

I maintain that it also appears here:
 
 

This could also be related:
 

You can hear something similar for Shmi's death as well:
 

 

https://vk.com/videos-126151236?z=video-126151236_456239709%2Fclub126151236%2Fpl_-126151236_-2
 
just found it!

Whoops! I gave that a like before you changed it to reference me. I'll change it to a thanks instead. Didn't even realize I'd said something like that. Well, at least I'm consistent!

Motivic connections have to be much clearer to be significant, and are typically intended to be actively heard by the audience ~ Ludwig (Paraphrased)

Williams already established that Luke's Theme isn't merely Luke's Theme anymore with the prequels. Just as Ben's Theme evolved into the Force Theme.

There's more to a cohesive score than just thematic continuity. Williams' use of themes is only part of his storytelling process; the more important detail is the score's overall tone and the emotion it conveys. Williams' melodic writing has always been more focused on malleable themes explored through a range of orchestration rather than "thematic development". So if he feels like Luke's Exile theme has no place in the score once Rey abandons him, and he favours a different route for his triumphant moment of redemption (like deconstructing a related theme), I'm not going to argue! And given the results, how could anyone?
 
It's like arguing The Lost World is incohesive because the main theme barely appears in the score proper after the first few cues, but if you actually focus on the score itself you understand the musical storytelling taking place: a descent into primordial darkness and back again. Surely one of Williams' most engrossing scores and it has nothing to do with thematic development; in fact, the absence of thematic writing is one of the score's greatest strengths (especially in the wake of its highly tonal predecessor).
 
Sometimes I wonder if you're so hung up on forensically obsessing over each motif and theme that you fail to hear the music itself, disregarding the musical storytelling taking place.
 
 
That's true. I said it comes closest because that film/score doesn't find much cohesion until the entire Grievous subplot is resolved and we actually focus on the important stuff -- Anakin succumbing to the dark side, the creation of the Empire, and the last stand of the Jedi. As identified earlier, it's a score with plenty of highlights but its musical storytelling would be incoherent in C&C form until Anakin's Betrayal onwards (which is clearly where Williams' devoted his energy).
 
The less said about the final acts of TPM and AOTC, the better.

Beautifully put, Ludwig. My thoughts exactly, I'm just not as succinct with words!
 
Viewed holistically, TLJ is immensely cohesive, flowing seamlessly from one cue to the next with masterful ease. When you consider the sheer volume of themes, melodies and motifs Williams is juggling throughout, it makes this achievement all the more noteworthy.
 
You point out an interesting observation about TFA, and I'd level the same observation towards the prequels. On a cue-by-cue basis, the prequels might well be filled with greater individual highlights than TLJ, but viewed holistically from a storytelling and writing perspective? Only ROTS comes close to matching TLJ's cohesion.

Thanks, @TownerFan! This is an excellent exploration of the score. I think it's an especially important point that, as you say,
 
 
There's something about this score that truly lives and breathes as a continuous, coherent whole. Whereas the strengths of TFA's score lies especially in its new themes and the set pieces composed especially for them, the strengths of TLJ's score lies in its weaving together of the drama, as you say.
 
Put another way, if TFA is like a patchwork quilt whose individual patches tell rich and engrossing stories on their own, TLJ is like a composite picture that tells a rich and engrossing story when one stands back and sees a large-scale picture made up of countless smaller pictures.

Hello everyone,
 
for those interested, attached are the Table of Contents and Abstracts.
TOC.pdf
Abstracts and Contributors.pdf

John Williams and the Music of Star Wars – A Further Step Into a Larger Musical World
An exploration of John Williams's music for the popular film series, with a particular focus on the latest instalment, The Last Jedi, by Maurizio Caschetto
 
An engaging, thoughtful and enlightening read. Enjoy!
 
http://www.jwfan.com/?p=10681

The only thing I wished JW had done was write a theme for the Rey/Kylo scenes, like a twisted or melancholic "seduction" theme. It would double down on the creepy manipulative moves that Kylo tries to pull on Rey, but have enough warmth to highlight the hope she has for his redemption. 

A couple thoughts.
 
*That ascending motif ["Kylo Ren (Menacing)" -- or whatever it ought to be called] sustains some interesting and independent developments in TLJ, apart from its linkage with the other two, more obvious motifs for the character. That degree of autonomy and repetition is sufficient for me at least to consider it a bonafide leitmotif, even if it's not a particularly important one. There's also some cool material which seems to share some of the same DNA as the motif, if not exactly replicating it, such as here: 
 
 
*The "Menace" motif shares the same first four pitches as the dinky little "First Order" motif (C-D-F-Eb) that I and a few others have pointed out in TFA--you know, the one whose most memorable statement was during the unused Hux's Speech cue... I'm not prepared to say its a matter of direct derivation or not, but I can't imagine it's a pure accident either:
 
 
*I'm not seeing the issue with identifying themes within musical set-pieces like the Battle of Crait. That one in particular does indeed include a unique, buzzy little motif that recurs here and there, solely within the context that scene (starting at 1:53 of the OST track). Who here is conflating theme and leitmotif? I don't think it's controversial to say things like The Asteroid Field or Mynock Cave or the Forest Battle have a theme (or two or three), quite apart from the issue of whether they're based on leitmotifs.
 
*If we're being totally pedantic about it, the Pursuit/Finn motif *does* occur in TLJ, but in a pretty lazy way. The music when Poe/BB8 blow up the guns on the Dreadnaught is an unaltered reuse of the music in the TFA credits where Poe's theme is overlaid with snippets of the Pursuit/Finn idea...

A couple thoughts.
 
*That ascending motif ["Kylo Ren (Menacing)" -- or whatever it ought to be called] sustains some interesting and independent developments in TLJ, apart from its linkage with the other two, more obvious motifs for the character. That degree of autonomy and repetition is sufficient for me at least to consider it a bonafide leitmotif, even if it's not a particularly important one. There's also some cool material which seems to share some of the same DNA as the motif, if not exactly replicating it, such as here: 
 
 
*The "Menace" motif shares the same first four pitches as the dinky little "First Order" motif (C-D-F-Eb) that I and a few others have pointed out in TFA--you know, the one whose most memorable statement was during the unused Hux's Speech cue... I'm not prepared to say its a matter of direct derivation or not, but I can't imagine it's a pure accident either:
 
 
*I'm not seeing the issue with identifying themes within musical set-pieces like the Battle of Crait. That one in particular does indeed include a unique, buzzy little motif that recurs here and there, solely within the context that scene (starting at 1:53 of the OST track). Who here is conflating theme and leitmotif? I don't think it's controversial to say things like The Asteroid Field or Mynock Cave or the Forest Battle have a theme (or two or three), quite apart from the issue of whether they're based on leitmotifs.
 
*If we're being totally pedantic about it, the Pursuit/Finn motif *does* occur in TLJ, but in a pretty lazy way. The music when Poe/BB8 blow up the guns on the Dreadnaught is an unaltered reuse of the music in the TFA credits where Poe's theme is overlaid with snippets of the Pursuit/Finn idea...

A couple thoughts.
 
*That ascending motif ["Kylo Ren (Menacing)" -- or whatever it ought to be called] sustains some interesting and independent developments in TLJ, apart from its linkage with the other two, more obvious motifs for the character. That degree of autonomy and repetition is sufficient for me at least to consider it a bonafide leitmotif, even if it's not a particularly important one. There's also some cool material which seems to share some of the same DNA as the motif, if not exactly replicating it, such as here: 
 
 
*The "Menace" motif shares the same first four pitches as the dinky little "First Order" motif (C-D-F-Eb) that I and a few others have pointed out in TFA--you know, the one whose most memorable statement was during the unused Hux's Speech cue... I'm not prepared to say its a matter of direct derivation or not, but I can't imagine it's a pure accident either:
 
 
*I'm not seeing the issue with identifying themes within musical set-pieces like the Battle of Crait. That one in particular does indeed include a unique, buzzy little motif that recurs here and there, solely within the context that scene (starting at 1:53 of the OST track). Who here is conflating theme and leitmotif? I don't think it's controversial to say things like The Asteroid Field or Mynock Cave or the Forest Battle have a theme (or two or three), quite apart from the issue of whether they're based on leitmotifs.
 
*If we're being totally pedantic about it, the Pursuit/Finn motif *does* occur in TLJ, but in a pretty lazy way. The music when Poe/BB8 blow up the guns on the Dreadnaught is an unaltered reuse of the music in the TFA credits where Poe's theme is overlaid with snippets of the Pursuit/Finn idea...