Goldsmithfan
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Posts posted by Goldsmithfan
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Nope. Everyone makes mistakes. Even the best films have things which are imperfect. It's a part of life.
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Hmmm... Listen to what Mr. Williams said about those over-the-top brass chords in Raiders of the Lost Ark. "We put those there for the camp fun of it!"
That's a musical nuance, not a straight gag designed to induce laughter. It sounds to me like it was a subtle acknowledgement of the B-movie roots of the film.
Sounds like they were trying to be goofy to me. The only one of them which seemed to have been taken semi-seriously was the first one... Then again, look at the way certain action sequences were dealt with: the escape from Peru and the Basket Game each seem laced with humor.Being humorous and being goofy are just not the same thing. There is humor in Schindler's List, but would you call that "goofy"? No, humor is a tool of storytelling that if used properly will enhance a story.
Wowzers guys, wowzers. I had no idea I could unintentionally stir the pot so much with bad phrasing.
Allow me to rephrase:
The previous Indiana Jones films were never quite serious. Raiders of the Lost Ark was the closest one, but it's still firmly rooted in the "action scene and then comic relief" popcorn style of filmmaking. There's nothing wrong with that when it's not overdone and I think they pulled it off nicely.
Temple of Doom was a really over-the-top sequel which took the idea of an archaeologist going on a wild adventure to some of the most unexpected heights ever. I really needn't say more. We all know about the slalom on Mt. Humol and mine car chase. Though the humor started to take place a bit more in the action scenes. The whole "We... Are going... TO DIE!!!" bit is a perfect example, as is the hammer hitting the head of the Thugee during Indy's fight with Pat Roach.
Then came The Last Crusade. They took the idea of Indy and LOADED it with even more humor than in Temple of Doom. The ratio of action to comedy was nearly balanced. "The floor's on fire!" and "No ticket" are amongst the most obvious scenes to point at.
And, naturally, along comes Kingdom of the Crystal Skull... And there's even more humor. Instead of the more grounded, semi-realistic stuff from The Last Crusade, they went for more zaniness a la Temple of Doom... But pumped with steroids. I just got back from seeing it again and, while it's not quite the same Indy as before, I think the spirit is there. The execution just wasn't 100%.
Basically, I should have said that Raiders was a revisit of the old serials (I still say they weren't 100% serious with it, but that's my opinion) and, from there, they took the idea and ran with it, incorporating more humor as they went. Each one had more comedy than the last, but I'd say that Temple of Doom meets Last Crusade + monkeys is what Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is. Now let's stop analyzing. After all, it's just a movie.
P.S: I already said that Indy ain't Schindler's List. That's like comparing underoos to lingerie. It ain't right.
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they are not all intentionally cheesy like goldsmith fan erroneously states.
Hmmm... Listen to what Mr. Williams said about those over-the-top brass chords in Raiders of the Lost Ark. "We put those there for the camp fun of it!"
Sounds like they were trying to be goofy to me. The only one of them which seemed to have been taken semi-seriously was the first one... Then again, look at the way certain action sequences were dealt with: the escape from Peru and the Basket Game each seem laced with humor.
In my opinion, the idea behind the films was to revisit a fun genre and kind of poke fun at it simultaneously. Of course, each one got a bit more facetious, but it's still a good concept.
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I for one hate it when they make edits on a soundtrack where it goes to a different cue with no relation to the first cue, all in the same track. I can see why you might not want to have the source music on the album at all, but if you're not going to do that, I say just have the one cue in the track.
I had thought of that as well. I'd have been perfectly satisfied had the track ended when the traveling music did. I'm not a huge fan of edits myself, but the main thing is having a score release at all.
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Raiders, Temple of Doom, Last Crusade, and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull all had tons of cheesiness, cheesiness that truly makes them Indiana Jones films. I love every second of it, from the submarine error to the waterfall sequence.
Thank you! The Indy films are all intentionally cheesy. That's the point! They're filled with one outrageous cliffhanger after another. This isn't Schindler's List we're talking about. They're all popcorn flicks.
In my opinion, if you can watch the rollercoaster ride that is Temple of Doom, you should be able to enjoy Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Sure, it cranked the insanity up to eleven, but that's fine. If you're going to spoof adventure films, you might as well be as eclectic with the humor as possible. And they were. And it was good.
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Have you seen the film? Why would it go into an ominous passage at that point?
Ever heard of editing? Like in other tracks?
Thank you for defending my point. I have indeed seen the film, but I don't find the source music to be all that entertaining. It's a quirk, but it's not essential. I'd prefer there to be something there which doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.
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I got Iron Eagle and In a Shallow Grave. I plan to get the Bernstein Box next week as long as it's still available. Then again, this isn't an Intrada release so it should last. (Knocks on quasi-wood)
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I saw a few Indy figures at Target last week and had to pick up the Crystal Skull Indy. They had a few others from Crystal Skull, Last Crusade and Raiders as well, but none of those were particularly interesting. I checked online to see what other figures were available and, just as I'd feared, there are no figures for Temple of Doom!
What's the story? Did that film traumatize that many children? I doubt it. There must be some reason... somewhere... somehow. But that still doesn't change the fact that I won't be able to buy a Mola Ram action figure.
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I recently got a completely new stereo. It's a HUGE upgrade from that which I had before and it makes the difference between good recordings and bad ones that much more apparent. When I first stuck in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and listened to the Raiders March, I was blown away.
The recording is absolutely spectacular and sounds much more alive than most CDs I've heard. I'll have to refresh my memory regarding a few other recording gems I've got, but I'm pretty sure this is in the top two as far as CDs go. The dynamics are solid from top to bottom, the imaging is wonderful and the accoustics of the concert hall are quite solid. Listening to that one is a real treat.
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I can only think of one offhand: The Journey to Akator. The "map" opening is great, but the semi-source passage is just wrong. I would have preferred something else there. If it had gone into an ominous passage (something like the Automatic Writing cue) I think it would flow much better.
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Oh I doubt that most people are criticising his actual composing skills.
It's the music itself that some of us have issues with. While Williams has matured as a composer his change in style has produced music that seems to lack the punch and excitement that the previous scores to the Indiana Jones films had.
I'm not going to say that this score is comprable to that of the original three, but it's quite a good bit of writing. His return to the world of Indiana Jones is certainly stronger than his return to the world of Star Wars in my opinion. And none of the first three Indy scores were all that similar. Despite the Raiders March and the second and third scores quoting the first, they're really quite different. This one is just another chapter in that ever changing musical opus. Though it's a belated entry and not as explosive as some may have preferred, I love it.
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I gave it another listen yesterday and absolutely loved it (which is much more than I can say for my initial listen).
I'll have to go with...
- The Spell of the Skull
- Jungle Chase
- Hidden Treasure and the City of Gold
- Temple Ruins and the Secret Revealed
- The Departure
I don't think five is a large enough number. It leaves out cues like Orellana's Cradle, "Return" and Finale.
- The Journey to Akator (simply because of the lovely statement of the B theme)- Hidden Treasure and the City of Gold (Quite good)
- The Departure
- The Adventures of Mutt
Sadly, I'm having a hard time coming up with five... Um, I'm hoping I just need to listen to it again. It just didn't have that Indy feel to it. The action cues were far too devoid of distinct melodic material. I like dissonance and driving rhythms as much as the next guy, but I was hoping for at least one action cue which was thematically driven.
Everything's growing on me, but I personally would recommend giving "The Jungle Chase" a little more play time. There's actually some good stuff going on when you listen to it.
You were absolutely right. I gave it a second listen and all of the thematic usage really came out in the score. I should have known better. My first run-through of a score is either fantastic or crap. If it's a good score, I have a feeling about it though, even if I didn't think it was good the first time around. That's what happened this time. I knew there was something good lurking on the disc. Jungle Chase is wonderful. The musical battle between the various Mutt action motives and Irina's material is great, as is the pounding rhythm in the second half. It really felt like Williams was trying to get back to the strongly melodic action writing of Desert Chase or Belly of the Steel Beast. Quite good.
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We have to realize that this is one of the finest moments of our lives (film score-wise, that is)...
Get a life.
Neil
I don't know. I kind of agree with Josh. I wasn't alive/old enough to get the original Indy scores when they first came out so this is a really surreal time, score-wise. And, not only that, but this is one of the most coherant new scores I've heard in ages. I don't want to go on a rant bashing new scores but... you know.
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I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but wouldn't it be terrible if Back to the Future was lost forever because of this fire? I mean, destroyed before ever having received a decent legitimate release.
Yes, fortunately that shouldn't be a problem. As far as we know it was old LP masters that was in the vault in question, not any recording sessions masters.
That still sucks though. Sometimes LP masters are all that remains of a film score.
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I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but wouldn't it be terrible if Back to the Future was lost forever because of this fire? I mean, destroyed before ever having received a decent legitimate release.
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Temple Ruins and The Secret Revealed
Are you serious?!? I really loved that one. Of course... I've only listened to the album once so that probably doesn't reflect well on the quality of the music.
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Actually I have to admit that I think Mummy has a better storyline (at least less chaotic), a better build-up and better humor than KotCS. Actually I think there are many elements which have been taken from the Mummy movies (the bugs, the huge temple sets, the character of Ray Winstone, the son), only that movie was much more fun watching, at least to me. I'd like to hear other people's opinions.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw the similarities between The Mummy and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. The baddie getting greedy and then dying because of it. And then comes the part similar to The Mummy Returns when the entire city is destroyed. Wowzers. A bit similar.
As to which one I like more...
I'll have to say Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. It's a better adventure with a better story, more natural humor and it doesn't feel as forced as the other. Though The Mummy does feature a fantastic Goldsmith score and Rachel Weisz in a fairly transparent outfit back when she looked great. And there was that painted actress too... Oh boy. I might have to reconsider.
so KOTCS using that element is a steal from the MUMMY, don't think so, it was also in LC the bad girl getting greedy and getting killed, so that would mean that KOTCS stole from MUMMY, which stole from LC, which really stole from Raiders, because no matter how you look at it, Belloq got greedy(not for possessions, but for knowledge), and Raiders stole it from some other movie.
You can knitpick this film, but jeez this is a tried and true story bit handed down from generations of films.
At no point did I say anything was "ripped off". I merely said there were similarities. As soon as I realized the similarities were there, I realized that it was an old story told long before any of these movies were created. Greed = death. It's nothing new.
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The matte paintings in Temple of Doom are second to none. I've never seen anything digital look that natural.
yes mola ram falling down is 100% reality
Not a matte painting. I'm referring to the arrival at Pankot Palace. So damn convincing it's not funny.
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Why they couldn't use real and scary puppet for a barely moving alien is beyond me.
For the same reason they'd use CGI prairie dogs: it's acceptable now. Ivan Reitman said it perfectly in his commentary to Evolution. When referring to puppets he said, "All that seems antiquated now."
Um... What? All special effects look fake in one way or another, but I'd gladly take a puppet of an alien over a gratuitiously digital one any day. If you can duplicate it physically, do so. Only use CGI when nothing else will work. Used to be the golden rule. Then they got carried away with new technology.
They merely do it digitally because of the fact that they can. There's no true reason. While I don't agree with editing the film down because of the filmmakers' poor choice of special effects, I wholeheartedly concur that much of what we saw was needlessly CGI.
why should Spielberg resort to special effect methods that haven't been used in 15 years just so it looks as old as the original movies.My question is why is it readily accepted that those effects haven't been used in 15 years? When did it become standard to have cartoons in every live action film? Remember when the ultimate goal of visual effects was to make them look as realistic as possible? Now people just want to go, "Wow! Look at those CGI tigers! Awesome!!!"
And, with regard to the "old" looking effects in the original movies... The matte paintings in Temple of Doom are second to none. I've never seen anything digital look that natural.
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Actually I have to admit that I think Mummy has a better storyline (at least less chaotic), a better build-up and better humor than KotCS. Actually I think there are many elements which have been taken from the Mummy movies (the bugs, the huge temple sets, the character of Ray Winstone, the son), only that movie was much more fun watching, at least to me. I'd like to hear other people's opinions.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw the similarities between The Mummy and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. The baddie getting greedy and then dying because of it. And then comes the part similar to The Mummy Returns when the entire city is destroyed. Wowzers. A bit similar.
As to which one I like more...
I'll have to say Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. It's a better adventure with a better story, more natural humor and it doesn't feel as forced as the other. Though The Mummy does feature a fantastic Goldsmith score and Rachel Weisz in a fairly transparent outfit back when she looked great. And there was that painted actress too... Oh boy. I might have to reconsider.
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Stopping the mine car with his foot was necessary because it was already established that the brake lever had been broken. The water gag was humorous but also got the trio out of the mine shaft and out on the bridge. It all served a purpose within the context of the story, while being humorous at the same time.
The nuclear test and Indy hiding in the fridge was far fetched as well as being absolutely unnecessary, a needlees historical cameo along the lines of Forrest Gump. Indy was at Roswell, Indy was at the nuclear test site... so much cornier than the fire/water gag from Temple of Doom. The whole thing should have been cut. After Indy escapes the Russians there should have been a straight cut to him being interrogated by the CIA. It served no purpose to the story.
This isn't the young Indiana Jones chronicles its a feature film adventure, things were so much more exciting when Indy had his own adventures instead of popping up in historical events.
I just thought it was harmless, silly fun. Isn't that what the Indy films are supposed to be about? Hell, Raiders has a bigger plot hole in its finale (How did he know closing their eyes would save them? I know of the cut scene, but why was it cut? And why do people use this as an excuse for a blatant error in filmmaking?) than virtually any of the other films, yet people still say that's a "perfect" film, though no such thing exists. These movies are silly and that's all there is to it.
Raiders - Magically knew how to avert bloody death at the hands of an angry god
Doom - Stops a mine car with his foot
Crusade - Escapes countless terrible matte lines
Kingdom - Survives a nuclear blast in a refrigerator
Maybe fridges really can survive stuff like that... How would we know otherwise unless we tested it ourselves?
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I loved the fridge part.
People seem to have forgotten that the point of Indy films was that they are unbeliavable and corny at times. That is what makes them so brilliant.
Exactly! People compare that moment to Indy and gang using the life raft to escape the plane in Temple of Doom, but I disagree. That's a highly improbable escape, but certainly not impossible. I'd compare that scene to Indy using his foot to stop the mine car. That's straight out of a Bugs Bunny cartoon!!! It's ludicrous. But, years later, people freak out when something a bit more silly happens. Personally... I loved it.
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"I like Ike."
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- The Journey to Akator (simply because of the lovely statement of the B theme)
- Hidden Treasure and the City of Gold (Quite good)
- The Departure
- The Adventures of Mutt
Sadly, I'm having a hard time coming up with five... Um, I'm hoping I just need to listen to it again. It just didn't have that Indy feel to it. The action cues were far too devoid of distinct melodic material. I like dissonance and driving rhythms as much as the next guy, but I was hoping for at least one action cue which was thematically driven.
Indy's Death
in General Discussion
Posted
That was nuts right? I didn't see that one coming. Got run over by his own son. That's life I guess. One second you're fighting hand-to-hand with a Russian and an extraterrestrial, the next second BLAMO! Some idiot sharing the same DNA as you runs your face over and then the end credits roll, scored by a powerful combination of the Nazi march from The Last Crusade and the Russian theme. The best part comes when they're combined of course. Made me poop my pants.