tony69

so after a trip to hollywood, here's the sentiments that i hear about goldsmith. Goldsmith is one of and possibly the MOST original/creative film composer. john has a very versatile classical skill and good orchestrational skills in terms of the standard romantic orchestra; among musicians, he is considered a fine musician technically, as in everything he does is meticulous and careful, kind of like ravel in that regards. however, jerry really was the emotional one who had a very STRONG sense of colour. jerry thought of everything in colour and his orchestrations are always really interesting. for instance, in patton, he used this interesting thing called an echoplex on his trumpets to create that echoey sound. (btw, this is from the original score) likewise, in star trek, he used so many extra instruments, including the blaster beam, organ (in a movie??, plus he also did celeste, piano, clavichord, AND synth), conch, cheesegrater struck with a wooden stick, a bouncy rubber ball on a tenor drum, some latin instrument but bowed, some percussion that starts with ang___, etc. this btw, this infromation is straight from the original handwritten score from the library down in LA. (omg, holding the ORIGINAL score is like heaven!) chinatown on the other hand had 4 pianos, a trumpet, and percussion. only one of the pianos was played normally. the other 3 were prepared or struck with mallets. looking at jerry's full scores, you immediately see the difference between him and williams. williams was extremely versatile on the orchestral set. he used them extremely well, but sticks to pretty normal sounds. jerry is the more avant-garde of the two. almost every page had something strange. the main title is the exception; it is SO ordinary. Also would like to point out, the music for Star Trek TMP is two piles, 8 feet high. I hoep that gives you an idea of the amount of music he wrote. (however, these includes parts, full scores, and conductor's score) btw, someone might say full score vs conductor score? aren't they the same? the answer is NO. the conductor score is a reduction of the full score. the conductor's score has the main important lines. i think this is because the conductor cannot remember all the things going on at once (even jerry prolly couldnt do it considering the music he wrote). anyways, the next time i go to LA, i'll give another report. What goldsmith stuff should i check out next? i'm thinking Planet of the Apes:P.

anyone find the violins horribly out of tune? after the bassoon intro. i'm talking about the scalar line that goes up right near the beginning. it's bugging me whenever i listen to the piece.

what makes apples great? and which is better, apples or oranges?

goldsmith was the epitome of musician. he wrote music for his own sake, not just to placate any director. he was very creative, and not afraid to experiment. when his scores were yelled at for not being wat the director wanted, he would vehemently argue for his score. as a consequent, he made film music into an art. williams on the other hand is known as the mediator. (i have many sources on this, including goldsmith himself. read the biography:P) he wont argue for his scores, but would rather change it if the director wants it. some people have considered goldsmith the greater, because what he writes, he wont readily change. also because goldsmith's music is often more creative/experimental than williams, not that williams is not experimental. however williams usually resorts to neoromanticism in his scores, whereas goldsmith would have no qualms about using wierd textures. think of planet of the apes. imagine williams scoring it. would williams have written it in such a modern style back then? i doubt it. even now, he has no purely dissonant score except for War of the Worlds. everything else has some of the neoromanticism, or some jazz sounds (pre1975). but then whether these qualities are important depends on the person. for many people ont he board, they might prefer williams because his melodies are more hummable.

with regards to the recording in a cathedral, maybe it costed too much? remember lucas was very short on cash since it looked like the movie would be a stupid movie. so maybe he didnt want to go overbudget?

aha, a discusssion about music Aesthetics:). why does star wars sound spacey? or superman heroic? or tatooine deserty? or even now, why harry potter sounds magical? its called ASSOCIATION. the idea is that we grow up listening to these types of music. by tradition, the celeste has become a magical instrument sound and so when we hear hedwig's theme we immediately associate magical. likewise, we have heard a loud raucous brassy theme over and over in movies, from the days of looney tunes when we were children until our present day, teens/adults/seniors. why do we love tonality? again association. schoenberg discusses this concept, when he was formulating his idea of the emancipation of dissonance. i believe he said, it could be possible to make the dissonance become a consonance and the consonance become a dissonance. howver i disagree somewhat since tonality does have some linking to the overtone series. but i do agree with him that it is what you listen that cultures you to expect certain things. remember stravinsky? rite of spring was the devil because no one had heard sometihng like that before. even in haydn's day in the surprise symphony, that sudden forte was enough to make people surprised because it wasn't commonly done. nowadays, when we listen to bartok, we expect random loud snap pizzicatos because we've grown accustomed to it. or another example, eastern european music. wow does it annoy my ears. the nasal e sounds they love using, and the strange scales. but eastern europeans love it. or opera (both western and peking) which annoys peopel who dont listen to it. so back to the initial point, the reason john wiliams music sounds adventurous for indy is because we've come to expect that type of sound since korngold did robin hood. or celeste and harp for magicality when tchaikovsky did the nutcracker.

dubya in farenheit 9/11. wait...he cant act.

its real. there actually is a difference. it sounds more lively and captures more sound than with digital. the reason i think has to do with less conversion. for Digital, its mike converts sound to bits and then bits back to sound; during this conversion process, sound quality is often worse off. for LPs, the vibrations of the sound cause the stylus to etch into the LP and to play it, u are playing back the vibrations.

it sounds like its an english horn playing 3 chromatic notes consecutively. with the tambourine on top of course.

omg. dotdotdot. sigh. well this is a very interesting post. tho i would argue that e is far more valuable than pi. i never have to use pi regularly, but i'm always working with e and ln.

shoot, i forgot it was horner. but ya he did record some goldsmith scores as well; the later ones however. for star trek, here's a story you wont wanna miss. So after recording, the director and horner were talking close to this guy, the cellist. and the director was saying "the love theme, its too unemotional. it doesnt work. it sounds so cold." which was obvious, cuz it was the alien girl. so horner is thinking, cuz he obviously does NOT wanna rewrite it. So he goes, "well, that girl gives me a hard on." and the director is like "WTF?!" and horner is like "ya, that's the sort of music that i think of when i think of her. damn she's so sexy" and the director is like "r u for real? this is the ugliest girl ever." but then finally horner convinced the director that she gave him a hard on, which obviously she didnt. but the point is the director then says "fine, if that's what you want, then we'll keep it." hahaha.

HAha yea! this guy's whole family is musically loaded. i didnt know about all his connections until i talked to him more. i only know of him cuz we both compose, but now i found out more. OMGOMG his family has STRONG roots in hollywood. his aunt has recorded almost every score with williams, many with goldsmith, mancini even herrmann. his aunt is also good friends with previn! and this guy himself recorded a few goldsmith scores (Star Trek 3) and has personally met williams, while doing a few of his concerts. so i could get you all a VERY good interview. omg i must convince him to let me meet his entire family. and after that, go to the indiana jones recording sessions.... i hope that can be arranged. i guess i need ur phone number now:).

hmmm how cool would it be to get the recording sessions? i could ask around; i might be able to get it. does anyone know if the people that recorded it are allowed to set up video cameras? i dont know what the contract rules are in the states. But, if they are, i might be able to get you all something:).

WOW. I just found out my friends grandpa is THE guy who played the famous horn solo, vincent derosa. Right now i'm still in shock. now i want to go interview him and find out about him, his pioneering horn sound, and his work with goldsmith and williams lol. imagine the stories. imagine the aura.

12 notes actually. Good point. can't count. what! how can u diss Db?! that is my favourite note actually. of all notes i love Db the most and hate F#. Db is the most mellow IMO and F# is so sharp and poignant. anyone else notice this?

ahhh, his hair is BROWN! that's crazy. now my long revered statue of williams has to be modified to change from brown to white.

um wats tempo mapping out of curiosity? i dont recall that term before. is it timing cues or MM markings?

well it can easily be a coincidence. the problem with music is that there is only 11 notes, and so many rhythms. there's been ALOT of music written over the ages so it is VERY easy to write something that sounds like something you've heard before. For instance, i was doing variations on Joy to the World. I used the C B A G motif, but delayed the resolution by putting A on the downbeat. i also added a small echappe on the B before doing the AG. It turned out that these 5 notes were the same idea as Brahm's First, 4th movement with the chorale bit. the rhythm was almost the same. for brahms, half, quart, quart, quart, dot half. i did half, dot quart, eigth, quart, dot half (very sim to Jtotheworld rhythm). so ya.

jp. without a doubt.

well the olympic spirit is also off from the recording in the summon the heroes cd. for the cd JW added a snare and changed the opening rhythm a bit. also Star wars finale throne room, the skywalker symphony CD is off for the first Boomtsss.

Is there a complete version out? I dont think the 2 disc rhino is complete. Somewhere i heard there was some pop songs johnny wrote for some of the high school scenes and stuff, though it's not in my DVD. Anyone have any idea why that is the case? i dont mean can u read my mind, btw. also, did anyone make a complete version?

HAHAHA that was the funniest thing ever.

i was talking to a composer, who's aunt was a famed hollywood flautist. she recently recorded Elfmann's Schizophrenia piece for the CD. and also recently, she recorded a New williams piece. It was some NBC Sports theme. Apparently, it's new, cuz she doesn't remember ever playing it. maybe people should start watching nbc sports?

um superman returns. it has gotten rave reviews so far. plus the new stuff like the jumping in the cornfield was very well done.

I think everyone's opinions deserved to be heard rather than shunned as being 'dead souls' devoid of 'musical knowledge.' I hate the guidelines in classical music. of course, they are guidelines, not rules, and can be broken. The thing is many guidelines have a reason for being. Sometimes they are psychological as in the sonata form, being a further development of simple ABA form. Other times, aesthetics as in the preference of consonances during the classical period. In terms of orchestrations, usually the rules are due to FUNCTIONAL reasons. example. One thing we learn often is do not double the oboe and the clarinet in a lower register because the oboe's nasal quality will drown out the clarinet, making it almost inaudible. (however in a middle register it works, as schubert does in his symphony) Or NEVER write below F#3 for trumpets, because they simple CANNOT play it. or do not write ridiculously quite parts for the trombone, because they have to slide their arms and they cannot be as accurate or agile due to that reason. In terms of shore's writing, marcus mentioned his muddy brass writing. beginning orchestrators are taught that if they want a clear sound, they must not use low brass chords. the reason is because of the overtone series. If we play a C1, then we also hear C2,G2,C3,E3,G3,Bb3, C4, etc. If we put our chords too close in the lower bass clef, then the upper harmonics will clash more creating a muddier sound. of course, when a muddy sound is desired, by all means do that. but shore does it even in the uplifting sections, something williams would never do (look at how well he spaces out his brass). Pi and Luke skywalker also mentioned his lack of orchestral variation. how he uses the exact same voicings etc. i have to agree that in the early movies, this seemed to be the case. The reason we desire orchestral variation is because it stimulates the ears, makes it more intersting. Also, his string writing has been criticised by some string players i know that played his LOTR symphony. They say his writing is extremely static. then suddenly they have this glow and say john williams on the other hand has more dynamic parts. again, the functionality of dynamic parts is for more interest and so the player is actually interested in playing the music. I must say, I do admire some of shore's orchestral textures. In particular, i admire his Cronenberg style. He has worked with that style so much that he knows what works and what doesnt. On the other hand, name another action-adventure score before LOTR by shore. There's very few. I honestly think that's why his orchestral writing for LOTR is limited, but his cronenberg stuff is great. I think this statement can be affirmed by noticing that the LOTR orchestral writing greatly improved through all three movies as someone else pointed. i hope this is good discussion, and would like to hear other people's opinions as well.