The Positive Hans Zimmer Thread...

[Sandor 459]

The last couple of weeks I've noticed a huge amount of negative remarks concerning the work of Hans Zimmer. I'm almost ashamed to say it, but I actually like Zimmer's music.

I think he has a very good sense of melodic writing (the themes from The Lion King, The Power Of One or Spirit are simply magnificent) and he has done something that most composer's never achieve: radically change the sound that dominates big, mainstream Hollywood productions (Backdraft and Crimson Tide being two of the most influential scores ever).

Don't get me wrong: I love complex, orchestral scores. Goldmsith, Morricone, Barry or Williams won't be surpassed by Zimmer's work. Never. But Zimmer's melodies can rival almost anything written for the cinema.

An overstatement? I think people who criticize Zimmer the most are not REALLY familiar with his work. Sure, they know his Gladiator (and hate it because it lacks an orchestral sound - as if the musical language of the Roman Empire was symphonic!), his influence on Pirates of the Carribean, etc.

Where is it written that a film score cannot be done using electronic instruments? Where is it written that orchestral instruments are always the most suitable for scoring a film?

Certain traditions dating back the late 20's and early 30's have determined this, but there are no LAWS on this matter.

Am I the only one here who thinks The Power Of One is one of the most magnificent scores written during the last 15 years?

Please post only POSITIVE comments on Zimmer in this thread, because the man is nowhere as bad as some here like others to believe.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

we don't need this thread, we've got the Zimmer Spielberg thread, which is too many zimmer threads other than my own

[Sandor 459]

Joe, positive remember....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Where is it written that a film score cannot be done using electronic instruments? Where is it written that orchestral instruments are always the most suitable for scoring a film?

Am I the only one here who thinks The Power Of One is one of the most powerful scores written during the last 15 years?

Please post only POSITIVE comments on Zimmer in this thread, because the man is nowhere as bad as some here like others to believe.

First you invite people answer your questions, then you tell them they can only post posivtive things.

This is not logical.

As for your first question.

No, orchestral music is not the method that can be used to score a film.

But using a style of music popular today can help in making a film seem dated.

Take Ladyhawk for example, a very good film, but made hopelessly dated by it's early 80's "Alan Parson's Project" type score.

A film that takes place in the 80's, with an 80's score (Beverly Hills Cop) is less affected by this, because the style of music seems more natural.

But using a modern sound in a film set in a different time period often just ages the film more then sex, drugs and rock & rol aged Keith Richards.

One of the few exeptions I can think of is Ennio Morricone, who got away with using an electric guitar in Once Upon A Time In The West, and synth beats in The Untouchables.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

I like Zimmer music too...

Crimson Tide, The Prince of Egypt, Backdraft, Beyond Rangoon, Gladiator (yeah...you read right), Hannibal, The Lion King, The Last Samurai, Spanglish, The House of the Spirits, The Peacemaker.

Mmmmmmmmm.

[batmanand 0]

The following are good Zimmer scores:

The Lion King

The Thin Red Line

Gladiator (yes, I know, but it is very listenable and some parts are melodic and all is very appropriate for the film)

Hannibal (shame it is mixed so low in the film)

That is all.

[Sandor 459]

First you invite people answer your questions, then you tell them they can only post posivtive things.

I can tell, but I cannot force... therefore take that remark with a HUGE grain of salt... Do I REALLY expect that some people (wink, wink) WON'T ventilate their rigid opinion on Zimmerism?

[Trent B 317]

A positive thread? Is that even possible on this message board? LOL

[Morlock 9]

Well, I like Zimmer, but that will come as no surprise to people here.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

A film that takes place in the 80's, with an 80's score (Beverly Hills Cop) is less affected by this, because the style of music seems more natural.  

But using a modern sound in a film set in a different time period often just ages the film more then sex, drugs and rock & rol aged Keith Richards.

You're right, it's not logical.

Violins and cellos were not playing in the streets of ancient Rome...and not for hundreds of years later, yet you hear them all the time in movies set in ancient Rome, and even before that. Heck violins weren't even playing in the 1400's...and you hear them in Middle Ages films...allll the time.

Composers use instruments that modern audiences can connect with, while providing a few elements of the time period the movie is set in...but also instruments that support the picture on screen rather than the time period the picture represents.

Please rework your arguments to state "Synths don't match my false stereotypical view of a lot of time periods and locations presented in films." LOL

And just to make it clear, I understand where you're come from, but at the same time, it's a very silly reason to bash the man's work...or the man.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

You are right of course.

The Symphony Orchestra is not something that was around during Roman times.

But it has been around for many centuries, and therefore able to provide a more timeless accompaniment to a film then the latest batch of synth samples can.

Even if it's histrorically inaccurate, it doesn't feel as jarring.

[Trent B 317]

You are right of course.

The Symphony Orchestra is not something that was around during Roman times.

But it has been around for many centuries, and therefore able to provide a more timeless accompaniment to a film then the latest batch of synth samples can.

Even if it's histrorically inaccurate, it doesn't feel as jarring.

There is truth to this.

I think most people who are into film scores and just instramental music itself would perfer real orchestras over synth. I am definitely one of those people.

Grant I do have a couple of synth scores but their from Star Wars fan films and they're actually quite enjoyable to listen to. They sound pretty close to a real orchstra.

Imagine though if they perfected synth to the point where you couldn't tell if it was a synth orchestra or real one? Man that would bring the death of real orchestras for film scores in a heart beat I would imagine...

[Sandor 459]

Imagine though if they perfected synth to the point where you couldn't tell if it was a synth orchestra or real one? Man that would bring the death of real orchestras for film scores in a heart beat I would imagine...

No it won't...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I'm not so sure.

If it's cheaper then a real orchestra many producers will be more then willing to give it a go.

[Trent B 317]

Stefancos has a point.

Edited for typos...I hate mis-spelling your name wrong...

[Morlock 9]

Indeed. Most composers aren't so proficiant, but there are some, like James Newton Howard for instance, who can do amazing stuff with synths.

Morlock- who listened again to Spanglish, following all this Zimmer talk, and had a fantastic time with that lovely little score.

[Sandor 459]

If it's cheaper then a real orchestra many producers will be more then willing to give it a go.

You make it sound like producers, directors and such are all "money-hungry" and have no artistic integrity whatsoever.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

It'll get to the point where it's nearly unnoticable, but it will never quite match a real orchestra.

Just like a real chicken egg always tastes better than the ones you buy at the store.

[Morlock 9]

Well, Zimmer's most frequent collaborators include Jerry Bruckheimer, John Woo and Tony Scott (who's actually specificaly said that his goal in life is to create shallow, money-making films).......

[Sandor 459]

Just like a real chicken egg always tastes better than the ones you buy at the store.

So the ones at the store are like, what, fake chicken eggs?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I'm sure that there are plenty of producers who will think it's a very cutting edge thing to do.

They might even think it's very artistic.

Hell the way CGI is being abused in recent blockbusters makes me think movie producers and directors love artificiality.

[Morlock 9]

Yeah, I don't know how it works where you come from.....

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Just like a real chicken egg always tastes better than the ones you buy at the store.

So the ones at the store are like, what, fake chicken eggs?

Just about...

That, and fresh chicken eggs > store eggs. *sniff* I miss my grandpas farm. :cry:

Back on the subject at hand though, there's quite a few composers who've done a great job of combining the oomph power of synths as heard in MV scores with the majesty of live orchestras...

JNH, Brian Tyler, heck even Klaus Badelt (The Time Machine) immediately come to mind, and personally I prefer synths in that form, as a supplement to the orchestra.

But if something synth comes out, and it sounds good, then it's good. If it's a series of beeps and boops and blings, and it sounds good, then I won't say it's bad because it's beeps boops and blings.

[Sandor 459]

The point is: no matter how MANY producers may "cop out", there will always be some who won't.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Yes, unfortunatly it's not the Coen brothers or the Scorcese's of this world who dictates the box office.

It's Jerry Bruckheimer.

[Sandor 459]

It's Jerry Bruckheimer.

It's not 1995 anymore Steef...

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Goldsmith had been using synths in combination with the orchestra for years. And did it quite well, I might add.

The combination in the battle cues from Gladiator (the one that comes up most often when speaking of Zimmer) doesn't work and really has no place at all being in that score. I found it inappropriate and distracting when watching the film, and I generally skip those parts of The Battle and Barbarian Horde on the album, because it gives me a headache if I listen to it for too long.

The other parts of Gladiator are rather enjoyable, though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Goldsmith had been using synths in combination with the orchestra for years. And did it quite well, I might add.

Yes, for instance L.A. Confidential's score works very well in the film, despite the very numerous synth rythms and percussion effects

Poledouris is also very good at it.

In the end it's just about talent, i guess.

[Sandor 459]

In the end it's just about talent, i guess.

And personal taste I might add...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Yes but there is no accounting for taste.

[Hitch 55]

Yer right

[pi 0]

Come on he is not that bad. If he was less successful would he be hated by so many? Or is it just fun to hate people like him?

[King Mark 2,924]

Because he stands against everything John Williams represents.

K.M.

[Morlock 9]

Goldsmith had been using synths in combination with the orchestra for years. And did it quite well, I might add.

Yes, for instance L.A. Confidential's score works very well in the film, despite the very numerous synth rythms and percussion effects

Poledouris is also very good at it.

In the end it's just about talent, i guess.

Goldsmith is generally excellent at it (despite some lapses, like that horrendous sounding synth stuff in Timeline). Poledouris can be good at it, though I think his synth work on The Hunt for Red October is quite bad.

Zimmer and synth....a love/hate relationship. It's good in The Rock, brilliant in Rain Man, fine in Driving Miss Daisy, good in True Romance, and a couple of other places, but generally, it detracts from the work. See The Lion King. It's practically perfect the way it is, but the synth is just so unnecessary, and takes away from the marvelous music. On the other hand, some of his synth cues can be fantastic. Like Drop Zone. A dumb, fun synth score. Molossus from Batman Begins is a good cue. Some stuff from Point of No Return. Black Hawk Down is a great score, but even in that synth invirement, the hgihlight is the synth-less 'Leave No Man Behind' . Spirit: Stallion of The Cimeron is fun.

But I do agree that in general, he overuses synth. Some of his finest scores are those that don't rely on synth at all (they do have some, but not at the important points of the score, and only to augment, never to take center stage). League of their Own, for one. Spanglish for another. Hannibal has a rich, deep sound thanks to the very full string orchestra and use of chorus. Invincible is also heavy on the strings and very good. He can use both together well, like House of The Spirits, which is heavy strings, ethnic stuff, and a healthy amount of synth, but it's a good score. An Everlasting Piece is a fun little score, no serious synth work, small ensamble work.

As for the talk about Gladiator....I feel it's a unique case. Uneven score, feels like a patchwork due to bad album treatment. I can't speak of it as a whole, but there is great stuff to be found in it's parts. 'The Battle' I feel is a fantastic way to deal with a battle scene, making it a waltz of destruction. It only loses me at the end, with Gerard's wailing. Stuff like 'Patricide' and 'Am I not Merciful' show the more contemplative and emotional sides of Zimmer's composing, as does the fantastic 'Duduk of the North'. 'Now We Are Free' also works well in context.

I think Zimmer is a one of a kind composer for better or worse. It's almost impossible to compare him to anyone, his style of film scoring is generally very unique to him (well, and some of his cronies, though even among their ranks there are some great new stars). In fact the onyl possible way I can compare him to anyone is in his use of Lebo M and African type stuff. And, for all it's worth, he does it better than Goldsmith or James Newton Howard, probably because he composes with Lebo M, instead of for Lebo M.

Morlock- who can deal with people hating Zimmer, but not without knowing what their talking about.

[batmanand 0]

Consistency, elegance, orchestras, quality (most of the time).

[Mooz0r 23]

Listen to Molossus (Batman Begins) at 02:33... I have heard that string motif in film trailers, and Zimmer/MV scores about 50 times now (or so it seems).. The guy just seems lazy. Also, he clearly has a lot of money so why would he deliberately use synth orchestra?? o_O

He's just generally a boring, uninspired, plain composer. And I think the main reason why he's hated is because a lot of "unenlightened" people (and even Directors such as Spielberg it seems) consider this bland composer comparable to (or in some cases better than) Williams which in my mind is insulting to composers like Williams with real talent.

[pi 0]

Once again let me point out, it is his job to SCORE the movie - not to write interesting music to listen to on a soundtrack. At this he is GREAT at. Does he in any way threaten Williams' musicallity? I dont believe so - so why cant we just accept and enjoy his underscoring?

and the guy works harder then any of the composers in hollywood. do you know how many projects he must work on or surpervise?

[Morlock 9]

He's hated because he's not nearly as good a composer as a lot of the greats. But he is one of the best film composers ever. I've rarely seen a badly scored film by him, and certainly no more than anyone else. His music gets in the way of things no more or less than Williams' does.

[fommes 126]

No, I'm sorry, he is not even great at scoring in 90% of the cases. And what annoys most of us is that he didn't became successful with the parts that are actually (very) good - he has most success with the blandest possible piece of music. Which is not surprising anymore: especially after the whole (this is unrelated to Zimmer but to audiences in general) Troy debacle.

[Morlock 9]

Well, than that's your problem, isn't it? MV serves a public craving. It's not Zimmer's fault the public can be stupid. And the Troy dabacle isn't really all that surprising if you've seen the film with Yared's score. It's big, grand, bold.....any producer/director would be scared of it. If the film came out with Yared's score, than the score would probably draw some of the worst reviews this side of Newman on The Greatest Story Ever Told. Yared's score was magnificent, but of a different era. His score would cast the film in a different light than the director wanted it. I'm surprised they went so far with it. That 16 member audience gave them a wake up call. In comes Horner, who wrote an excellent score for 3 weeks.

I love Yared's score, think it is several light years ahead of Horner's, and most other scores of recent years, but it was simply too big and too bold for it's film.

[Richard Penna 2,083]

I absolutely love Zimmer's scores to:

Gladiator

Beyond Rangoon

The Prince of Egypt

The Thin Red Line

I think he's capable of good things, but that it really depends on the right movie & director. I think we sometimes forget that the director has asked for a particular style (like Spielberg requesting for techno bit in A.I., which JW doesn't do normally) so bad scores in our opinion might not be completely the composer's fault.

True, a lot of his themes are simplistic, but most are still memorable, I mean take King Arthur. The 'Tell Me Now' theme is just 3 rising notes, yet I liked it from the first time I heard it.

[pi 0]

Well, than that's your problem, isn't it? MV serves a public craving. It's not Zimmer's fault the public can be stupid. And the Troy dabacle isn't really all that surprising if you've seen the film with Yared's score. It's big, grand, bold.....any producer/director would be scared of it. If the film came out with Yared's score, than the score would probably draw some of the worst reviews this side of Newman on The Greatest Story Ever Told. Yared's score was magnificent, but of a different era. His score would cast the film in a different light than the director wanted it. I'm surprised they went so far with it. That 16 member audience gave them a wake up call. In comes Horner, who wrote an excellent score for 3 weeks.

 I love Yared's score, think it is several light years ahead of Horner's, and most other scores of recent years, but it was simply too big and too bold for it's film.

Represent my friend. I think people are missing the idea that Zimmer pretty much single handedly invented a whole style of music ( that power waltz - gladiator vibe ) and pretty much also invented the groove based orchestral action cue - and additionaly pretty much became the temp for all trailers too. he is awesome!! come on admit it independtently of williams.

sorry for bad spelling

[batmanand 0]

Not that it is terribly relevant to a thread about Zimmer, but with regards to the Troy saga, I have enormous respect for Horner. He has two weeks to write the music for that film - and so it is inevitable he included his favourite four notes. Not even the Maestro is above a little self-plagiarism - look at COS, with Lucius Malfoy/The AOTC Conspiracy theme and the Quiddich Match/Chase through Coruscant.

Yared's Troy was obviously a masterpiece, but Horner's is at least passable. And in two weeks I think that is an outstanding achievement. Indeed, there are bits of Horner's score (the Achilles-Hector fight, Achilles' theme, the final 15 mins of music) that are actually rather good IMO.

[fommes 126]

Well, than that's your problem, isn't it? MV serves a public craving. It's not Zimmer's fault the public can be stupid.

Of course that's my problem. But it's a general problem in my opinion. And Zimmer is representative of that problem because, very generally speaking, he is responsible for this trend.

Look, I'm not deaf, Zimmer can write good things. I'm just saying, even when you say his underscore is great, I don't think so. And especially when taking into account that Broughton for example could be doing the assignments Zimmer does. It's just general regret. Take that Simpsons film for instance - what an incredible shame to hire Zimmer! He already screwed up Thunderbirds. And now instead of Alf Clausen (2nd choice is obviously Elfman), he'll add his style to it. Hopefully he'll score it in the good way, which he's capable of.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

because his music is like your questions

[David Coscina 3]

Actually Morlock, I synced up parts of Troy with Yared's score and they work marvelously. Yared's TROY is my favorite score of the 2000's; hands down. Mind you, I love his Cold Mountain score too.

[orrakul 0]

I wouldn't say that I hate Zimmer; I'm just rather indifferent to what he's done in the past 10 years (or so). His music seems to depend entirely on a heavy beat and a high volume...

[JoeinAR 1,759]

people its not music its noise.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

I've yet to hear a note of Yarad's score for Troy. From the descriptions of the score on this board, I would love for this to eventually get an official release. Come on, Varese!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Actually, Zimmer's not hated. By people here maybe...

But on popularity in today's culture meter, he's leaps beyond John Williams.