Voldemort's Theme

[Marcus 385]

Greetings, everyone! I'm still recovering from last night's extravaganza with Williams and the N.Y.Phil...

For a while , I've been reading about the "misuse" of the "stone" motif from the first Harry Potter film in "Chamber of Secrets", and just thought I'd address the fact that Williams himself links it with the character of Voldemort, as is evident in his short piece "Voldemort", for bassoon trio, included in his children's suite for orchestra. Here, the "stone" motif functions as an introduction to the Voldemort theme proper. Consequently, the use of this motif in Voldemort-related scenes in "Chamber of Secrets" is appropriate.

[nightscape94 965]

Well, it's used during the The Gringotts Vault cue, which has nothing to do with Voldemort, and everything to do with the stone.

The same misquote issue happens during the "Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" cue, when there is a long drunk statement of the Nimbus theme (oddly, the stone theme also makes an appearance right after).

Tim

[tpigeon 3]

All through the first film, every time the stone was mentioned, we would hear the stone motif in the score, and likewise with Voldemort's theme. I find it highly inappropriate when they are finally entering the Chamber of Secrets that the stone theme is playing; not because it's not Voldemort's theme, but because it's not the Chamber of Secrets theme.

Ted

[Henry B 49]

The same misquote issue happens during the "Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" cue, when there is a long drunk statement of the Nimbus theme...

Are you saying that this is a thematic "misquote"?

[nightscape94 965]

I'm saying that the nimbus theme has nothing to do with that scene, and should not have been quoted.

Tim

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

But didn't he also use that in "Who'd be writing to you?" Isn't that actually the theme's very first appearance?

[futuremartymcfly 0]

this is something thats always bothered me, but I guess its just really a tad bit of laziness

[batmanand 0]

The "Nimbus 2000" theme is much less clear-cut as a theme than the Stone theme. It features in all sorts of weird places, such as the scene with the snake at the beginning of HP:PS, that have nothing to do with the broomstick or flying. Hence, it is probably more of an all-purpose magical wonderment theme.

The Stone theme certainly IS misquoted in COS. There is just no doubt about it. Arguably, it has evolved between HP:PS and COS into another Voldemort theme, but a number of things count against this interpetation. First, Voldemort has at two distinct themes in PS; why does he need a third? Secondly, the theme is so heavily and obviously associated with the Stone in PS, why would it be transferred to Voldemort? Thirdly, there is a Chamber of Secrets theme which is not played at key moments (such as the opening of the chamber) when the Stone theme is instead played. This suggests either tracking or "lazy" scoring - ie in both cases a non-deliberate attempt to change the meaning of the theme.

See http://www.jwfan.com/modules.php?op=modloa...article&sid=369 for a full (and excellent) analysis.

[nightscape94 965]

Well, I guess it's no more criminal then calling the main Potter theme, "Hedwig's Theme". I don't really care if there's some ambiguity behind what a theme exemplifies or what it's connected to, but if you flat out called something the "Nimbus 2000" theme, then please, use it for that.

Tim

[Elmo Lewis 6]

The "Nimbus 2000" theme is much less clear-cut as a theme than the Stone theme. It features in all sorts of weird places, such as the scene with the snake at the beginning of HP:PS, that have nothing to do with the broomstick or flying. Hence, it is probably more of an all-purpose magical wonderment theme.

The Stone theme certainly IS misquoted in COS. There is just no doubt about it. Arguably, it has evolved between HP:PS and COS into another Voldemort theme, but a number of things count against this interpetation. First, Voldemort has at two distinct themes in PS; why does he need a third? Secondly, the theme is so heavily and obviously associated with the Stone in PS, why would it be transferred to Voldemort? Thirdly, there is a Chamber of Secrets theme which is not played at key moments (such as the opening of the chamber) when the Stone theme is instead played. This suggests either tracking or "lazy" scoring - ie in both cases a non-deliberate attempt to change the meaning of the theme.

See http://www.jwfan.com/modules.php?op=modloa...article&sid=369 for a full (and excellent) analysis.

I think a more appropiate term, other than the inapropiate "Nimbus 2000", would be "quirky magic".

As in, quirky magical music for quirky moments involving magic.

[gkgyver 1,638]

Well, it's used during the The Gringotts Vault cue, which has nothing to do with Voldemort, and everything to do with the stone.  

Not quite. Voldemort's theme (as I still call it) could play to his character, simply because Voldemort wants the stone and the whole story revolves around that. It could be a theme that describes not necessarily the character himself, but rather his connection with the storyline. So, everytime the driving force behind an action or an event is Voldemort, that theme plays.

That's the difference between playing to the images, and playing to the storyline.

[Datameister 1,394]

I think we just have to accept the fact that Williams' use of leitmotif in the Harry Potter films is not nearly as literal as in, say, the Star Wars movies. Heck, even those enormously leitmotif-based scores contain "misquotes," such as the presence of Yoda's theme in ESB's Cloud City fight or Leia's theme after Obi-Wan's death. As much as it frustrates and saddens me to say this, sometimes leitmotives just don't stand for a single entity or idea as much as we'd like them to. And sometimes they do, but they are occasionally used simply for the "purely musical effectiveness" rather than "any apparent thematic relevance," as Michael Matessino puts it.

The Nimbus/flying/quirky magic theme is the perfect example of this. Let's face it--there is not a single object, person, or concept it truly represents except that enigmatic term "magic." The Harry Potter movies being what they are, that basically means Maestro Williams can use the theme however he wants. I'm not happy so be saying this, but it's true. Same goes for the stone motif and others.

[nightscape94 965]

Well, it's used during the The Gringotts Vault cue, which has nothing to do with Voldemort, and everything to do with the stone.  

Not quite. Voldemort's theme (as I still call it) could play to his character, simply because Voldemort wants the stone and the whole story revolves around that. It could be a theme that describes not necessarily the character himself, but rather his connection with the storyline. So, everytime the driving force behind an action or an event is Voldemort, that theme plays.

Oddly, I made this same argument about the Goblet theme in another thread some time ago, but I don't think it works quite the same for the Stone theme (and that's what I call it ).

The Stone is, and should be viewed, as a separate element of the story. To me, it and Voldemort are mutually exclusive, and cannot be true for both at the same time. I think it has to represent one or the other, and in this case, it clearly represents the Stone.

Tim

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

First, Voldemort has at two distinct themes in PS; why does he need a third?

Indeed. Both themes are so clearly linked to You Know Who and Voldemort respectively, just as the Stone motif is in *most* cases clearly linked to the stone.

I'd also argue that in most cases, the leitmotifs in the first Potter movie are handled very carefully with very few "misuses". Hedwig doesn't count, as here theme doesn't seem to be a leitmotiv but rather a general main theme. What seems to be the Hogwarts theme is misquoted in the movie because the entrance movie was tracked to Diagon Alley, but that's not Williams' fault.

On the other hand, there are misnamed cues. Not only Hedwig's Theme; Hogwarts Forever (in my opinion at least) clearly is a theme for Gryffindor.

Marian - who never gets tired of discussing this subject.

[Henry B 49]

Well, I guess it's no more criminal then calling the main Potter theme, "Hedwig's Theme".  I don't really care if there's some ambiguity behind what a theme exemplifies or what it's connected to, but if you flat out called something the "Nimbus 2000" theme, then please, use it for that.

Tim

The theme was titled "Nimbus 2000" on a concert score after the film score was completed.

[jon614 0]

Couldn't the "stone theme" be considered as an overall "mystery theme?" In SS, the main mystery of the movie is the stone, and the kids are trying to find out more about it throughout the whole movie. Same thing for COS. The chamber was the main mystery and the kids tried to figure out more about it throughout the whole movie. For the cases where it is involved with Voldermort, Voldermort is a mystery to Harry Potter and, as is evident throughout the series, Harry learns more and more about the mystery of Voldemort every year. Obviously, Voldemort already has two themes, so I doubt that this theme is a theme just for him. So, I think if this is in fact a "mystery theme," it works well in both movies. Of course, I am not an expert on this kind of thing, but this is just my personal opinion.

[nightscape94 965]

Well, I guess it's no more criminal then calling the main Potter theme, "Hedwig's Theme".  I don't really care if there's some ambiguity behind what a theme exemplifies or what it's connected to, but if you flat out called something the "Nimbus 2000" theme, then please, use it for that.

Tim

The theme was titled "Nimbus 2000" on a concert score after the film score was completed.

Seems like an odd thing to do considering what he did with the theme throughout the score. Maybe short-term memory loss?

Couldn't the "stone theme" be considered as an overall "mystery theme?"

I think if we do that we're making excuses, forcing the chaos to make sense instead of admitting that it was just a bad decision.

Tim

[John Crichton 4]

In CoS, the Stone theme could easily be called the Mystery of the Chamber theme, as that's what it represents based on when it's used. But in SS it's more of just a theme for the stone, although there's certainly a "mystery" quality about it, appropriately since the trio is figuring out what the stone is and who's trying to steal it.

And I think that Williams' use of the Stone theme in the Voledmort section of the Children's Suite is just because the Stone theme plays a prominent part of The Face of Voldemort cue, which also has the biggest statement of Voldemort's main theme.

[Docteur Qui 1,248]

Well' date=' I guess it's no more criminal then calling the main Potter theme, "Hedwig's Theme". I don't really care if there's some ambiguity behind what a theme exemplifies or what it's connected to, but if you flat out called something the "Nimbus 2000" theme, then please, use it for that.

Tim[/quote']

The theme was titled "Nimbus 2000" on a concert score after the film score was completed.

Seems like an odd thing to do considering what he did with the theme throughout the score. Maybe short-term memory loss?

He used it for Quidditch and for Harry's first broom-ride. Doesn't seem like memory loss to me.

Maybe you're thinking of the first half of the "Hedwig's Theme" concert suite, which is the main HP theme we all know?

[nightscape94 965]

First of all, there was a hint of joking when I said "short term memory loss", but I'm not sure you even read the previous posts where this is already talked about. What I'm really getting at, and what many us have already mentioned in previous posts, is that the Nimbus theme is not used primarily for the Nimbus 2000, that it's a misnomer, used in many situations that are not exclusively tied to the broom. I was simply stating that, if you're going to name a specific melodic fragment and tie it to a specific theme or idea, then it should be adhered to, or don't title it something like "_________'s Theme" if that' not what it is.

I understand that it's used in conjunction with flying, or the Nimbus 2000, but it's also used out of context, like the Harry's conversation with the snake at the zoo, or underlying Crabb and Goyle eating the cakes in CoS...

I just don't like inconsistency in thematic development or mislabeling themes.

Tim

[Incanus 5,519]

The Philosopher Stone theme clearly plays for the Stone itself as many have suggested. Of course the motif is ominous but I think it represents the evil the Stone could have if it ended up in the wrong hands. So the whole Stone has an ominous mystic quality throughout the storyline. Voldemort relates to it indirectly.

The theme is used brilliantly in the Face of Voldemort sequence in which Williams unites all the three motifs, You Know Who, Voldemort and Stone, and creates a selfcontained piece in which the themes battle for supremacy. But clearly the Stone motif refers to the Philosopher Stone in a very concrete fashion. The Stone is always either shown or very strongly implied in the scene where it is used.

The use of the Stone theme in COS is in my opinion a all purpose "something bad is going to happen" motif. Whether it was Ross or Williams who composed the music for the many scenes it was used the theme is still very unappropriate and I still wonder why didn't they use the Chamber theme itself since it would have been perfect. In the scene where the way to the Chamber is revealed I was expecting the the Chamber of Secrets theme but instead there was the Stone motif blaring in full force. So the the use of the theme is a great mystery to me. I'd hate to think Williams would have settled for such piece meal approach in scoring the scenes unless he was in a really great hurry or perhaps Ross adapted the score for those scenes.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I was simply stating that, if you're going to name a specific melodic fragment and tie it to a specific theme or idea, then it should be adhered to, or don't title it something like "_________'s Theme" if that' not what it is.

He didn't name it "Nimbus theme," though. He named it just "Nimbus 2000." Maybe "quirky magic theme" wasn't really that interesting a name for a concert suite (one in a series, too).

- Marc

[Romão 1,931]

The Philosopher Stone theme clearly plays for the Stone itself as many have suggested. Of course the motif is ominous but I think it represents the evil the Stone could have if it ended up in the wrong hands. So the whole Stone has an ominous mystic quality throughout the storyline. Voldemort relates to it indirectly.  

The theme is used brilliantly in the Face of Voldemort sequence in which Williams unites all the three motifs, You Know Who, Voldemort and Stone, and creates a selfcontained piece in which the themes battle for supremacy. But clearly the Stone motif refers to the Philosopher Stone in a very concrete fashion. The Stone is always either shown or very strongly implied in the scene where it is used.

The use of the Stone theme in COS is in my opinion a all purpose "something bad is going to happen" motif. Whether it was Ross or Williams who composed the music for the many scenes it was used the theme is still very unappropriate and I still wonder why didn't they use the Chamber theme itself since it would have been perfect. In the scene where the way to the Chamber is revealed I was expecting the the Chamber of Secrets theme but instead there was the Stone motif blaring in full force. So the the use of the theme is a great mystery to me. I'd hate to think Williams would have settled for such piece meal approach in scoring the scenes unless he was in a really great hurry or perhaps Ross adapted the score for those scenes.

The Voldemort theme was used in COS when Tom Riddle reveals himself as Lord Voldemort.

In the opening of the chamber, although thematicly incoherent, the stone motif does work well.

Williams also used Leia's theme in Obi-Wan's death, which even led me to believe Leia was like Obi-Wan's daughter or something and Williams had the insided word.

[gkgyver 1,638]

Couldn't the "stone theme" be considered as an overall "mystery theme?" In SS, the main mystery of the movie is the stone, and the kids are trying to find out more about it throughout the whole movie. Same thing for COS.

That's what I mean! Just that I think it's not an universal Mystery theme, but a "Voldemort Mystery Theme".

@ nightscape

You got me a little wrong: I don't think that theme is connected with the CHARACTER Voldemort, but with the PLOT ELEMENT Voldemort. So, consequently there are two themes for him. One plays when he's actually on screen and in action, the other one when his shadow lurks over a scene or an event.

[Ollie 859]

Williams used Leia's theme there because he thought it fit the scene if my memory is correct.

He may have felt the same way with HP.

[nightscape94 965]

I was simply stating that, if you're going to name a specific melodic fragment and tie it to a specific theme or idea, then it should be adhered to, or don't title it something like "_________'s Theme" if that' not what it is.

He didn't name it "Nimbus theme," though. He named it just "Nimbus 2000." Maybe "quirky magic theme" wasn't really that interesting a name for a concert suite (one in a series, too).

- Marc

I wasn't clear enough on that one. The blank space was referring to "Hedwig's Theme", however, "Nimbus 2000" is still a reflective title giving the audience the impression the theme is connected to the broom, whereas, it's more complex then that. Therefore, it's still misleading.

Tim

[jon614 0]

I agree with gkgyver. I think the "stone" theme is in fact a "Voldemort mystery" theme. In COS, the chamber is connected with Voldemort, as is the stone in PS (in a way). And, they are both mysteries obviously.

I can see where you are going nightscape. This could definately be an excuse for a bad decission. But, if the "stone" theme is in fact a "Voldemort mystery" theme, then it is appropriate for COS and that is why it was used again in COS. Then again, it could just have been a bad decission. We don't really know.

I am also disappointed that the chamber theme wasn't used more often in the movie (especially when the entrance to the chamber was discovered and when Harry entered the chamber itself).

[tpigeon 3]

The opening of the chamber was lazy scoring, pure and simple, just like the cornish pixies scene (containing music originally for a scene with flying keys), and many other scenes in the movie. I will always remain baffled how Williams had the time to write stand-alone pieces for the themes, such as for Fawkes, Lockhart, and Dobby, yet did not have time to integrate theme into the actual movie. Something just isn't right about that.

Ted

[Henry B 49]

I wasn't clear enough on that one. The blank space was referring to "Hedwig's Theme", however, "Nimbus 2000" is still a reflective title giving the audience the impression the theme is connected to the broom, whereas, it's more complex then that. Therefore, it's still misleading.

Yes, but you seem to be blaming the theme, rather than the title.

I will always remain baffled how Williams had the time to write stand-alone pieces for the themes, such as for Fawkes, Lockhart, and Dobby, yet did not have time to integrate theme into the actual movie. Something just isn't right about that.

Those are all adapted for the film. Dobby's theme is treated "heroically" when he stops Lucius Malfoy at the end.

[nightscape94 965]

I wasn't clear enough on that one. The blank space was referring to "Hedwig's Theme", however, "Nimbus 2000" is still a reflective title giving the audience the impression the theme is connected to the broom, whereas, it's more complex then that. Therefore, it's still misleading.

Yes, but you seem to be blaming the theme, rather than the title.

I guess I blame both.

Tim

[Docteur Qui 1,248]

Regarding the Nimbus theme again (sorry to keep discussing it) - he named it that before CoS, and therefore before half of the thematic abuse in mention. Yes, he used it when the snake escaped in PS, but that was about it, the rest were flying instances.