The Western

[Figo 2]

For twenty five years now, Cassandras have been crying a death knell for the western. It's true, not all that many westerns are being made nowadays, although, amazingly, two of them -- Dances With Wolves and Unforgiven -- won Best Picture in the 1990s. The fact of the matter is, this most durable of genres has not gone away, it has merely been absorbed into other types of adventure films, such as the Indiana Jones series and just about anything set in space, post-Star Wars. For crying out loud, even Sling Blade owed as much to Shane as it did to Faulkner. And the finale of L.A. Confidential? Warmed over Rio Bravo.

John Williams, of course, wrote a number of western scores, most notably for The Cowboys. However, he also scored The Missouri Breaks -- which I have never seen, believe it or not, and unfortunately missed out on purchasing at a very good price -- and The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing, unavailable at my video store. (I tried to rent it a couple of weeks ago.)

I love the western. I hated it when I was a kid, but around the time I got to college, I couldn't get enough of them. Always liked Clint's spaghetti westerns, of course, but my appreciation has certainly broadened in the intervening years. As I had mentioned in another thread, I was listening to The Comancheros this past weekend, and a whole lot more. Turns out I have a pretty good collection of western scores. Elmer Bernstein was a master of the genre. He wrote The Magnificent Seven, of course, but he also climbed on the John Wayne bandwagon late in the Duke's career. I frequently find myself watching many of these relatively crappy westerns when they come on TBS, just to appreciate the music!

Ennio Morricone's contributions have always fascinated me. Of course, I was initially attracted to the exoticism of the harmonicas and the guitars and the wooden flutes and the music boxes and the wordless sopranos and the inscrutable male choruses. But listening to The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly again reveals more than that. These scores are not just freaky, they are exciting, and refreshing in their steadfast refusal to embrace the easy Coplandisms of the American western. The track titled "The Ecstasy of Gold" is a real trip!

But my all-time favorite western score must be Jerome Moross' for The Big Country. It was one of those rare instances where I knew from the opening credits I was in for an extraordinary experience. And Moross' invention doesn't stop there. In some of his lesser projects, Bernstein seems to come up with one or two themes and then masterfully employs them as if on autopilot. The Magnificent Seven is a different story, as is The Big Country. To my knowledge, TBC sports the most energetic score in the entire genre. It's constantly in motion, with all sorts of Americana waltzes and pseudo-folk melodies, hoedowns and brawny Coplandesque fanfares. The main title music begins with the perpetual motion fiddle music. Onscreen we see a team of crazed horses running hell-bent for leather as they draw a carriage across vast expanses. Then, suddenly, the striving brass fanfares! Aieee! Amazing stuff. Nothing going on -- galoping horse hooves, rotating wagon wheels, dust and wide open spaces -- but holy hell do we know this is going to be something special!

What are some of your favorite western scores? Does anyone even have any? I realize most of you are too young to have grown up with the genre, but then again so am I, almost. I say almost, because I did have to suffer through countless Sunday afternoons of westerns at my grandparents' house, as my great grandfather sat, silent and imposing, in a recliner in the corner. I must have seen every bad western ever made. But there are certainly plenty of good ones. Feel free to name a few of those, too!

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

I haven't seen much westerns, and I'd like to, but I can't find them in the local video stores, and lately I haven't been renting movies. I've seen The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, and though somewhat weird, have always loved the main theme, and also love the guitar playing in the confrontation scene.

But I'd like to see one of those with a grand symphonic score like Copland's The Red Pony, and of course, Copland homages like Bernstein's The Magnificent Seven and Williams' Cowboys.

By the way, where would Silvestri's music from Back to the Future III fit into the western genre?

[Figo 2]

The popularity of the western, I would guess, is at an all-time low with younger viewers, although I can't say that with certainty. If you like big symphonic westerns, definitely explore The Big Country. More recently, of course, Bruce Broughton wrote an excellent score in the grand tradition for Silverado.

Some great westerns, off the top of my head:

My Darling Clementine (1946) -- Much better than the title suggests. Henry Fonda as Wyatt Earp, and Walter Brennan in one of his best roles. A John Ford classic.

Destry Rides Again (1939) -- Jimmy Stewart and Marlene Dietrich. Jimmy's the sherriff who won't carry a gun. Stewart went on to make some very good "straight" westerns in the '50s.

Dodge City (1939) -- Unlikely scenario with Errol Flynn in the old west, but it contains the ultimate barroom brawl!

The Searchers (1956) -- One of John Wayne's most intense characterizations.

Red River (1948) -- Another. Although the ending is a cop-out.

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962) -- The ultimate Rashomon western. It's not for nothing John Ford was Akira Kurosawa's favorite director. "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Rio Bravo (1959)/El Dorado (1967) -- Practically the same damn movie, but what a great movie! Western stereotypes -- the drunk, the gimp, the cockey kid -- get their act together and hole up in the town jail to prevent a criminal from busting out.

Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) -- Arguably the ultimate spaghetti western. Doesn't have Clint, but it sure has scope!

The Wild Bunch (1969) -- Disturbing anti-western dispenses with the romance and looks ahead to contemporary essays like Unforgiven. Fascinating -- and bloody.

Blazing Saddles (1973) -- The quintessential western spoof. Demonstrates, sadly, just how far Mel's more recent parodies have fallen. (Spaceballs... .)

Dances With Wolves (1990) -- Kevin Costner's New Age western features one of the most stunning sequences in the genre -- a jawdropping buffalo hunt. I'm still trying to figure out where they found so many buffalo!

Unforgiven (1992) -- Clint turns the western inside-out, shows us what a nasty bastard he is, then turns it rightside-out again for the crowd-pleasing finale.

Since you ask, I would rank Back to the Future III on about the same level as City Slickers. Fun scores, but not exactly classics of the genre.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Oh yes, good westerns are great. And what about pirate swashbucklers? Those seem to have died out completely.

How come your list is missing the Dollars trilogy and Mag7?

Wes Craven's New Nightmare (J. Peter Robinson)

[Figo 2]

I intentionally skipped the Dollars trilogy and the Mag 7 because I had already mentioned them above. This is far from a definitive list. Please don't hesitate to add to it!

I wholeheartedly agree about the pirate swashbucklers, by the way. I'm not sure what happened there, because the '20s, '30s and '40s were brimming with great ones. Now, they all seem to fall flat -- Swashbuckler (1976) and Roman Polanski's Pirates (1986), were both very bad parodies. Costner's dreadful Robin Hood remake is pretty much indicative of the trend. Everything has to be steeped in gritty realism nowadays. The romance of the Middle Ages (or of the high seas) is dead.

Still, I suppose it's only a matter of time before someone tries to computer animate a pirate galley. Ridley Scott, perhaps?

[Figo 2]

Come to think of it, though, there is a hell of a lot of pirate influence in Star Wars. I'm especially thinking of the scene where Luke and Leia swing across the chasm on board the Death Star. Or Luke's arrival on Cloud City in Empire. The music as he attempts to rescue Han is pure Korngold. Also, the light sabre fight with Vader owes more to the classic swordfights than that of The Phantom Menace, which was obviously martial arts-inspired. Han's character, however, is pure cowboy.

[Figo 2]

Jeez, and the Jabba's barge sequence, of course! If you ever watch The Sea Hawk, there is an identical scene where Alan Hale dispatches the drummer on board a slave galley in precisely the same manner as Leia dispatches Jabba. That whole sequence is a rehash of the pirate movie, complete with another rope swing featuring Luke and Leia.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I intentionally skipped the Dollars trilogy and the Mag 7 because I had already mentioned them above.  This is far from a definitive list.  Please don't hesitate to add to it!

I saw you mentioned it above, so I wondered why it wasn't in the list.

As for Pirates!, I like it a lot. Totally stupid, yes, but very funny. Matthau is awesome, and Sarde's score is very nice, too.

And of course Star Wars is very swashbuckling, but not in a Piratey way - it doesn't have that nautical feeling.

[Mari 279]

My parents loved Westerns so I grew up watching and enjoying them. My parents even had the Frankie Laine album Hell Bent For Leather, orchestrated by John Williams. I wish I knew where that album is now!

My list of favorite includes (among others mentioned previously):

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

Gunfight at O.K. Corral

High Noon

They Died With Their Boots On

Mari

[RomanticStrings 10]

I've actually always felt that the Star Wars main title is like a western. Maybe only in the sense that it has orchestra hits similar, I repeat, similar, to How the West was Won. Speaking of that, I would have to say that How the West was Won is my favorite western score. However, westerns have always been attractive to me. I haven't seen nearly enough westerns, however, to have an opinion on the films themselves. But the music I always enjoyed.

~Conor

[Jamesyboy 3]

What about Tombstone and Silverado!? Those are 2 of the best recently made westerns ever. Granted they both were made a few years ago, but both are great westerns and still live up to today's standards.

Now..who's bright idea was it to make Wyatt Earp and cast Kevin Coster? banghead There was a good opportunity gone bad :confused:

Jamesyboy - who believes the scores for all 3 of the aboved mentioned films are awesome!

[Figo 2]

I agree, about the orchestra hits, although I'm not sure if that was intentional.

Sorry, Jamesyboy. I found Silverado disappointing. All the classic elements were in place, but somehow they didn't add up to anything special. A real pity, too, in light of the cast and the rousing score.

As for Tombstone, I didn't like it one bit. Run-of-the-mill George P. "Rambo" Cosmatos shoot-'em-up. I much preferred the other Wyatt Earp film of nearly the same vintage, directed by Kasdan. I know I am in the minority on this. It had its flaws. The love scenes early on were particularly stupid, and any scene with Jo Beth Williams and the wives played too much like The Big Chill in the Old West. But, goddam it, Dennis Quaid was friggin' brilliant as Doc Holiday. He deserved at least an Oscar nomination. But was he recognized? No! It was eerie just how well he fit the part. Much better than Victor Mature in My Darling Clementine -- which, however, was a far better movie.

Marian, I didn't mean to shortchange Walter Matthau in Pirates. He was great, and I would have never expected it. But the movie was just so lame. Polanski did a better job of parody in The Fearless Vampire Killers.

And, actually, I do think Star Wars has some of that "nautical feel." Take another look at the star destroyers. Or the depth charges being dropped in the asteroid field. I thought Lucas did a pretty skillful job integrating familiar seafaring images into the trilogy. As I said, the scene with the skiffs and Jabba's barge is pure pirate. Or at least it could have been, with better direction. But we get the point.

Back to western motifs, the truck chase in Raiders was nothing if not a compilation of all the great stagecoach stunts of the '30s and '40s.

[Figo 2]

Some other notable westerns:

Stagecoach (1939) -- Looks very old by today's standards, but a great cast of character actors playing all the western stereotypes -- the drunken doctor, the card sharp, the woman with a past, etc. -- and John Wayne in his star-making performance as the Ringo Kid. This is the film that features many of the stunts -- including Yakima Canutt going under the stage -- that eventually turned up in Raiders.

The Westerner (1940) -- Early Gary Cooper. For some reason, I always thought High Noon was overrated, although I certainly recognize its far-reaching influence (eg., Outland).

The Outlaw (1943) -- Almost unwatchable! But fascinating, since Howard Hughes put up the dough so that his well-endowed girlfriend (Jane Russell) could star opposite reputable actors Walter Huston and Thomas Mitchell. Ostensibly about Billy the Kid, but Russell's chest gets more screen time.

Johnny Guitar (1954) -- Another one out of left field. Just see it!

Shane (1953) -- Not a lot goes on in this slow-moving western, until Alan Ladd faces down Jack Palance at the explosive climax. Still, very influential. Without it, there would have been no Pale Rider or possibly even Sling Blade. I just wish someone had shot the kid at the end.

Man Without a Star (1955) -- Unless I'm very much mistaken, this is the one where Kirk Douglas plays the banjo and punches someone into a barbed wire fence. Cool.

Cat Ballou (1965) -- Who'd a thunk Lee Marvin could have played comedy? Yet he was so good -- playing twins, no less -- that he won an Oscar.

Will Penny (1968) -- Solid Charlton Heston western. Sweet tale of injured cowboy who finds love, with a curiously unsympathetic score by David Raksin.

Paint Your Wagon (1969) -- Make sure you have a six-pack handy for this one. Make it a case! Lee Marvin and Clint Eastwood in a western musical. Yep. You read me right.

The Shootist (1975) -- John Wayne's swan song. Difficult to watch. The Duke has cancer (just as in real life) and his past is catching up with him. Great Elmer Bernstein score, which curiously enough, in light of Williams' nearly contemporaneous score for Hitchcock's Family Plot, uses a harpsichord. Watch for Ron Howard as the requisite hero-worshipping kid.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

What about The Hallelujah Trail for a western parody? Very weird, but very funny, too. Elmer Bernstein's score could use a decent release, the Tsunami sounds like shit.

[Figo 2]

Do you have the Koch International recording of Mag 7 (3-7222-2)? It contains a seven-minute suite from Hallelujah Trail. I must admit, I have never seen the movie, so I didn't know it was a parody, although I must say it certainly sounds like one! The disc received the composer's benediction. Supposedly, he called it "definitive." I'm sure he was speaking of Mag 7, but Hallelujah's good, for what it is. Typical peppy Bernstein.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Yes, I love that recording of the suite. Better than the songs in the OST IMHO. But of course, there's tons of stuff in the OST that didn't make it into the suite.

Basically, Hallelujah Trail is like a study in leitmotif scoring. Nearly everything in the score is leitmotif-based, but there are so many variations, it never gets boring. There are about 5 different groups of people or so, each of them having their own leitmotif, and they're always played when they're on the screen (except when there's no music, obviously). So it's a very direct leitmotif approach, but great nonetheless. And several of the leitmotifs work as songs, too.

[Figo 2]

Hmm. Interesting. I'd like to hear it. The reason I said I should have known Hallelujah was a parody is because the song in the opening credits is so cornball. But western songs are almost always cornball, so it's not always so easy to tell!

There's also the overture, on a Silva compilation called Way Out West: The Essential Western Film Music Collection, Volume 2 (#1136). I don't own this one, but I borrowed it from the station. It has another six minutes from Hallelujah, and yes, it does kind of fill in with a better idea of the score. Still, hardly worth investing in a 2-disc set, if that's all you're interested in. It's one of those City of Prague Philharmonic anthologies. They don't always get it right, but I am astonished by just how often in this collection they do. The suite from The Big Country sounds very idiomatic. I guess everything they touch doesn't have to suck, after all.

[Figo 2]

Hey, Marian -- since you happen to live in the German-speaking world, let me ask you something. Are you familiar with a series of German westerns made in the 1970s, I think, that feature stories primarily about American Indians (Native Americans or "Indigenous Peoples," in the current parlance)? I ask, because I see the boxes all the time at my video store. One of them, at least, is an adaptation of one of Fennimore Cooper's Leatherstocking tales. Supposedly, they were very popular at the time of their release. Have you ever heard of them? The entire concept of Chingachgook and Natty Bumppo coversing in German blows my mind. I may have to rent them.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

I was thinking of Oklahoma, although a musical, definetly a western.

Ah, and thank goodness RomanticStrings that you mention How the West was Won, I loved the final scene, and the music, I saw this movie when I was younger and didn't like it much, sometimes it annoyed me, but that ending scene, pretty cool.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Are you familiar with a series of German westerns made in the 1970s

Not in the slightest. In fact, I don't know a lot of westerns at all. THose that I have mentioned above, plus very few others.

Anyway, the most famous German westerns are the Winnetou films, based on books by Karl May. Never seen or read them, but from what I know about them, they seem to be mostly clichees and not much else.

[Figo 2]

If the curiosity gets to be too much, I'll rent one of them, or at the very least make sure I get the names.

Figo, wondering if the Germans adopt the kind of broken Indian-speak we use here in the United States, or if the braves all talk in words consisting of 15 syllables.

[Omen II 1,235]

Shane (1953) -- Not a lot goes on in this slow-moving western, until Alan Ladd faces down Jack Palance at the explosive climax.  Still, very influential.  Without it, there would have been no Pale Rider or possibly even Sling Blade.  I just wish someone had shot the kid at the end.

Don't worry, Figo, Brandon de Wilde got killed in a car crash a few years later. :?

Shane is one of my favourite films and certainly one of my favourite scores. Apart from the beautiful cinematography (shot in the Grand Tetons in Wyoming) and the magnificent score by Victor Young, Alan Ladd, Jack Palance and Van Heflin give career best performances.

My favourite scene (as I mentioned in another thread once) is the scene where Van Heflin and Alan Ladd chop down the stubborn tree stump. Surely the best bit of male bonding until Roy, Rob and Rick sat round the table on The Orca in Jaws. It is one of the great movie moments as Van Heflin and Alan Ladd put aside their mutual distrust. Victor Young's baroque scoring at that point is worthy of Bach.

I am DESPERATE for Marco Polo or someone to record this score in its entirety as I think it is one of the best western scores ever written. There is a short suite on Koch's Victor Young tribute CD but a lot of the best music is missing (including the music when Alan Ladd rides to face his nemesis at the end of the film). Victor Young was a massively underrated composer and this really was his finest hour.

Some day I'd love to go into a bar and order a glass of milk just to see if anyone tries to kick my head in.

Damien

[Figo 2]

Glad I could provide a soap box for you, Damian. Gratifying to see this thread is serving some good.

Yes, Victor Young is vastly underrated. I've sung his praises here several times before, but it always bears repeating.

Sorry the kid got killed in a crash and all -- but at least it ended his career. (I'm sure that will generate plenty of hate mail from Kevin.)

Figo, whose glass of milk is always half full.

[Jamesyboy 3]

Blazing Saddles!!!

Jamesyboy - 'nuff said!

[Morn 8]

I never really used to be interested in westerns until I saw for a few dollar's more and The good the bad and the ugly

The good the bad and the ugly is a really excellent film. Unique, has variety and a great story.

[Figo 2]

All the Leone westerns are really excellent. One of my favorite bits in For a Few Dollars More is when Clint strikes the match on the back of Klaus Kinski's neck. There are simply too many great scenes in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly to even mention, but the final showdown is definitely a highlight. Morricone's music is exceptional. In fact, quite possibly the most striking of his impressive career.

One of the things I love about the spaghetti westerns is that all the actors basically play the same role in every film, even when they're not supposed to be the same character. Lee Van Cleef must have worn that outfit and played that part in at least half a dozen spaghetti westerns, not all of them directed by Leone. He dies in every one of them, only to turn up again in the next!

Figo, who knows Morn's favorite western is really Quigley Down Under.

[Figo 2]

Listening to Williams' The Cowboys today -- the OST, not the overture -- and it is actually quite good! Better than I remember, actually. My recollection is that there was not much beyond what appears in the concert arrangement, but I was quite wrong. The orchestration is a lot more inventive in the original. I assume Williams had to make certain concessions for a standard symphony orchestra. The OST sports lots of interesting touches, with harmonicas, electric something -- cello, maybe? guitar? what the hell is that? ("Bedtime Story"), electronic keyboard, and piano obbligato. This is just about up there with The Reivers, now, in my estimation, and definitely looks ahead to the "Williams sound" we all know and love from his monster hits of only a few years later. I hear a lot of Jaws and Superman in it, and that can never be a bad thing. On the downside, the soundtrack (Varese Sarabande 5540) is only a little over half an hour long, but it is definitely worth it.

[Figo 2]

Nope. The Reivers has still got it licked.

The Reivers OST

[tpigeon 3]

The Reivers i think is much better than the Cowboys, though i like the Cowboys. i like the Alternate Main Title better than the actual main title.

[Figo 2]

The Reivers is completely out of control! Love that jew's harp, that honky-tonk piano, those sh*tkickin' banjos. This is quite possibly Williams' most inventive score -- and that's saying something.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Reivers is great, but I like Cowboys even more. As far as I remember (having not heard the concert version for a long tme), there's a LOT more in the OST. The alternate main title is one of my favourites. It feels too short though - does anyone know if/how much music is missing from the Varese album?

The Secret of NIMH (Jerry Goldsmith)

[Figo 2]

Well, remember, Marian, there was actually a time when 30 to 40 minutes of music was common for a soundtrack album. Thems wuz the day of the LP. People who came of age with the compact disc are so spoiled. Even after the introduction of the CD, record companies continued to screw consumers for a good many years, giving us 45 or 50 minutes worth of music in a format which could conceivably hold 80. Still, sometimes enough is enough, as so amply demonstrated by Jurassic Park. IMHO, of course.

Hmm. The Reivers vs. The Cowboys. Do I smell another poll a-brewin'?

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I wasn't criticizing them for not releasing a 2LP set back when the score first came out. I was just expressing my wish to hear more of the score if there is more of it.

Marian - who DOES want a longer JP.

[Figo 2]

Marian - who DOES want a longer JP.

Masochist!

For the record, I wasn't trying to be snooty. I would love a longer Cowboys, as well.

Figo, seldom missing an opportunity for a good rant.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Figo, seldom missing an opportunity for a good rant.

I noticed that.

Marian - who fails to see what a JW fan can have against the JP score.

Species (Christopher Young)

[Figo 2]

Is that you dangling from the chain, or I?

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

You....I hope... :dontgetit:

Marian - who doesn't like chains.

[Figo 2]

In that case, I hope the other is Princess Di (vide "Darth names" thread).

[Mari 279]

The Reivers is completely out of control!  Love that jew's harp, that honky-tonk piano, those sh*tkickin' banjos.  This is quite possibly Williams' most inventive score -- and that's saying something.

I only have "The Reivers" suite on the Music for Stage and Screen CD, but did just order order the OST. Now I'm really looking forward to getting the CD!

Mari

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

I need to get that CD. Before I had a CD player, I remeber I always saew that CD in the store, now I can´t get it anywhere.

[Figo 2]

I got mine through the Varese CD Club, back around 1990. It has since been reissued by Sony, but I have never found out to my satisfaction whether or not the content is the same, or if the Sony actually has more music. Nobody here seemed interested enough to answer my query.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Western in it's pure, undiluted form is dead.

The Unforgiven was it's fitting egely, the last living icon of that genre closing that part of Hollywood history, probably forever.

Stefancos- who considers The Unforgiven a masterpiece of film making.

[Figo 2]

You may be right. The western exists, but it has been swallowed up by science fiction and the police drama.

Just be careful with Unforgiven. There is no "the" in the title. If you put one there, people may confuse it with a Burt Lancaster western from 1960 (with Audrey Hepburn, directed by John Huston).

Figo, who will be first in line if Clint decides to make just one more.

[Figo 2]

Incidentally, Unforgiven may have been the last Oscar-winner that I agreed with (other than Schindler, that is). I was shocked that it won!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed it was a surprise, finally reconition to one of the great actor/director's.

BTW, i have a shot of getting the Unforgiven CD for a low price.

Should I?

Stefancos- who's no great fan of westerns, but knows a great movie when he sees one.

[Figo 2]

Depends on if you are a Lennie Niehaus fan. I only know the score from the movie. Wasn't exactly your driving, Coplandesque big orchestral western. I remember a lot of acoustic guitar.

Figo, wondering if even he would buy it...

[Mari 279]

I got mine through the Varese CD Club, back around 1990.  It has since been reissued by Sony, but I have never found out to my satisfaction whether or not the content is the same, or if the Sony actually has more music.  Nobody here seemed interested enough to answer my query.

When my CD arrives I'll post the track listings so you can compare.

Mari

In the Steppes of Central Asia (Borodin)