If the studio hired James Horner to score YOUR movie...

[Quintus 5,399]

... would you politely ask him to write brand NEW themes for your labour of love? Would you kindly tell him that although you love his work, you do not wish your precious film's music to sound like Braveheart, Titanic and Aliens? I would.

I'd want the theme to be totally original and the action cues to have absolutely no sign of that damn 4 note motif he loves so much. I also wouldn't want the sound of clanging metal at any point

Is that so much to bloody ask Mr Horner?!

It makes me wonder why the likes of Ron Howard was never bothered by Horners musical regurgitation. Surely Howard is well aware of his past themes...

[GoodMusician 56]

I would hire a hitman.

The studio would have to get a new composer then...

[Trumpeteer 302]

If James Horner expressed interest in scoring my movie, I'd tell him how much I love his music.

Then I'd take him to a house formerly owned by a drug addict, hit him with an iceberg, impale him with a long pole, castrate him, cut off his head, then shoot him on a failed trajectory toward the moon, only to blow him out of the airlock before the return trip.

[Sandor 797]

Horner asked to score GOMP. We rejected him for obvious reasons.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Would I tell him flat out? No.

But as a director, you're always able to have some "suggestions" for the score...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Horner asked to score GOMP. We rejected him for obvious reasons.

Going for the cheaper option, aren't you?

The Van Der Laan boys, and their Korg!

[Ollie 1,059]

1. I would tell the studio NO!!!!!

2. If they insisted I would threaten to burn the negatives.

3. I would reject his score because it would not fit my film.

4. On the scoring stage I would keep rejecting every cue he wrote until he got fed up and quit.

5. If I were a director I would have it in my contract that I hire the composer of my choice.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If he's score my movie I'd ask him to do something keltic, with Ulean Pipes and that titanic flute.

and Jimmy, lay down some shakuhachi funk, pleeeaaassseee....

[BigMacGyver 0]

I would insist on composing my own score with the help of James Horner's experience. Just like that Robert Rodriguez guy did with other composers. If Horner refuses... well too bad for me because then I would have to go for John Debney instead.

[scissorhands 16]

I can perceive here so much aggressiveness toward James Horner... :?

I would be really happy if the studio hired him. I trust Horner's talent, which is far beyond his so acclaimed early years.

[Indiana_Fett 0]

I want those blaring Wrath of Khan horns from the main theme played during my Pirate film.

[batmanand 0]

I would make it a condition of my contract that JW scored the film. Simple as that.

[Quintus 5,399]

The only way I'd let him utilize his 4 note danger motif is if he promised to use an accordion instead of brass.

And if he insisted on using a re-worked version of his Braveheart theme for the emotional moments, I'd politely ask him to change the first note and shorten the third by 1.5 seconds, so as to avoid similarities with the heroic story of William Wallace. And that robot film with Robin Williams.

[Bowie 45]

I'd laden the draft film with John Williams temp tracks.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Hypnosis to wipe his memory, just not his skill.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I would say "Jimmy... work your magic!"

[tony69 0]

i'd be rich. dude horner sells alot of cds. think of the money i'd get.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'd be absolutely honoured to have him working on my film. Despite his flaws, he's still a fantastic composer.

[GoodMusician 56]

not to seem entirely rude but I love Horner's old school scores. There are very few modern ones I like... specifically...Titanic...

But the problem I have is he seems to copy and paste from score to score...

Not like JW does with a minor thematic development/motif here and there...

he takes whole chord progressions/themes/tracks and uses them again.

Case and point, A Beautiful Mind and Bicentenial Man... practically the same...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I would stop making the movie...

[Morn 8]

I would tell him I'll have him sued if he reuses any of his old music for breaching a copyright. And I'd have him sign an agreement that if it lacks sigificant new music that he won't get paid, why should he get paid for rehashing music.

[Quintus 5,399]

I'd be absolutely honoured to have him working on my film. Despite his flaws, he's still a fantastic composer.

Yes I quite agree, he has done some truly great scores and themes. I happen to love the main themes to Cocoon and The Land Before Time, though you hardly ever hear mention of these. But having said that, I would still be adamant in my request for fresh material.

Wouldn't you?

In fact the subject should not even have to arise with a composer of his talent, but the sad fact is - it would where James Horner is concerned.

Incidentally, Mel Gibson surprisingly wasn't fussed about this issue when he heard Horners work on (the admittedly superb) Braveheart score. Either that or he hadn't seen Glory. For the main theme to the latter has a middle strings section which is near identical to the 'Freedom' theme of Braveheart.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Thinking better, and since i would be doing a Bird's movie , i would do a Hitchcock and not use music in the film

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I would also be quite honoured - the guy can write amazing stuff given the right material and some great themes.

However, I'd drop as many hints as possible that the following were not...er...particularly sought after in this particular project:

Metal clangs

Synth choir

4-note motif

Braveheart theme in any form

Action sequences based on synths, yelling bagpipes and synths that could be tracked from Braveheart or The New Word

Piano crashes

...and a quiet note under the table detailing fee reductions for every one I find in the finished product

Is that really too much to ask an A-list composer? (Given a reasonable amount of time)

In fact, it's only recently occurred to me that every A-list composer has recently managed a rushed replacement score with superb results (Williams & CoS, Goldsmith & AF1, JNH & Kong, Newman & Horse Whisperer to name a few), except Horner, whose Troy was I think not very well received and borrowed for most of its themes.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of Horner, but his thematic plagiarism is alarming at times.

[Quintus 5,399]

Action sequences based on piano crashes

Does that include Laurel and Hardy films?

Is that really too much to ask an A-list composer? (Given a reasonable amount of time)

No, not at all. In fact you would think its a given considering their pay packets. But what do I know.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Is that really too much to ask an A-list composer? (Given a reasonable amount of time)

No, not at all. In fact you would think its a given considering their pay packets. But what do I know.

Yes, I think it would be a given. A decent music editor can track existing stuff in (heck, I'm trying it right now with scoring a 50 min holiday movie) but for a couple of million dollars, I expect original music, in every sense.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

I would just let the man score my film.

Then I would fire him at the last minute and hire Gabriel Yared.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I think it would be blatantly unprofessional to tell the man how to do his job. As a director, I would work with him through spotting and feedback on music, but I wouldn't say "here's how you're going to do this" before he even starts writing. We have no idea what his process of writing is, so criticising it is useless. If it does involve looking back on old scores, sure, I'd say something, but if it's what plays into his head as he watches a scene or just comes to him and he writes it down I'd go for it. If it had similarities to other music that I recognise I'd mention it, and try and explore as many options as possible, but if not, so be it.

[Morn 8]

Isn't the job of a director to tell people how to do their job? Horner can not be trusted to do a decent job without very specific instruction I'd say.

[Olivier 5]

Wow, three positive remarks!

I had barely bothered browsing through the messages a few days ago, and have just given it anoter try.

Now, here's my reply...

I would be glad and honored the studio budgerted an A-class composer (and his orchestral needs) for my movie.

Horner does have talent, and great melodic skills. The problem is that he falls back on old tricks and quotations too often.

But has it occurred to you it might be the directors a producers' own fault as musch as, or even, more than, his own?

So many now do not care about the music, do not know a thing about it, or just do not care whether it's a repeat so long as it's beautiful. They lay on temp tracks, and the composer has to follow them and not deviate an inch.

They hire Horner because they want "the Horner sound" they've temped their movie with; so he does just that. "Want something like Sneakers? Sure, will do".

Bill Conti addressed this once in an interview, saying he did what he was asked for. It might not be the most pleasant thing, it might be a dirty job, but in the end, it's a job, and they do it as professionnally as they can. some can stand it, others don't.

Did you see what happened on Spider-Man 2? Elfman quitted and vowed never ever again to work with several-time collaborator Sam Raimi, because the latter was so monomaniac and adamant about re-using cues from the first score, note for note, that even the original composer couldn't come close enough to his own original composition! They eventually just tracked in old cues, and asked Debney & Young to fill in the rest, doing exactly what Raimi wanted. They delivered. They just did their job in the most basic way: do what you're asked to do.

I don't have the score, but that's what I've read Horner did for Troy: (trustworthy) reviewers and music lovers usually agree that he managed to do something pretty good, maybe even really good, within a mere (two?) weeks. He had to rely on his bag of tricks, but apparently also managed to inject enough interesting things, and write a powerful score, in a limited time. Very few composers can do that-- and would even dare try--, and I don't remember reading Horner systematically used 10-20 orchestrators.

Besides, he can still write excellent original music. Titanic had great themes and powerful moments for the whole sinking act. The Mask of Zorro had great music, great use of flamenco touches (which I usually don't like); sure, there was the 4-note motif again, and the shakuhachi, but the whole thing was new, was not a melodic retread of previous scores. The Spitfire Grill is a lovely score. The New World is most beautiful, and didn't repeat parts of previous scores, as The Bicentennial Man did for instance.

I'm sure the difference lies in the composer's profound interest in the movie, and in the director's intelligent involvement. If he asks him to repeat himself, he'll do it, no problem; if it's what the director wants and feels more secure with, what his movie needs, let's give him, even if as a composer he believes he could actually do better.

Honestly, you should also admit there's something particularly interesting (and "magical" in a sense) in those repeats: if you take those scores individually, ie, if you forget the previous scores they borrow from, you'll see (hear) that they fit the movie, the mood, the characters. The Bicentennial Man and A Beautiful Mind may repeat previous scores and echo each other, but in the end, each one has really beautiful music, and the opening, "there's something wondrous here" female vocals do work beautiful each time.

(I would hae to search for the more developed message I had written on this a few years ago on FilmTracks' board.) Many people indeed do like those scores, whether openly, or indirectly, saying they're "guilty pleasures".

On the other hand, on projects that call for a new approach, that intrigue him, where the director actually lets him write on his own, discusses the music with him, he can and does come up with good things.

The scores cited above, Star Trek II, Cocoon, Aliens, ...., may share Hornerisms (not so much repeats as stylistic idiosyncrasies), but you can't possibly confuse them with one another, and they are truly great.

Heck, even when he's repeating himself or channeling another composer, you can still identify the whole score as his, and those borrowings precisely stick out of the whole thing. And even Horner's weakest scores are better than some of today's hot composers, and can be instantly recognized as Horner scores-- just like the weakest and most auto-pilot Goldsmith was still better than what younger composers can do and ever dream of doing.

You may consider Horner ought to use his status to try and change things, that he's sunk into the easy lazy way of doing things, instead of trying to resist, even if it means getting fewer A-class movies.

You and I don't know how it all works in the studios, but it's seems obvious that most directors & producers don't know a thing about good music and don't care (Pirates of the Caribbean is a case in point; Silvestri would have written a great orchestral score, and Zimmer could have written another Muppet Treasure Island if asked and given the freedom), and composers can hardly say a thing-- you either obey, or get replaced, whether you've been working on it a month or a year.

Several (many) scores have shown Horner has the melodic, orchestral, and emotional skills to write great (and original) music.

Unfortunately, he doesn't do it every time. Why? Maybe it's not just because he's lazy. Maybe it's just because he does what he's asked to.

Most (pretty Pavlovian and-- dare I say it?-- fanboyish) reactions here show what poor directors you would be-- forcing your own view rather than analyzing, thinking, and discussing. Judging from such reactions, I'm sure if you did get John Williams or your favorite composer, you too would expect him to do what you want rather than discuss with him and let him do his thing-- "I want the John Williams sound!" "Oh no no no, wait, Maestro, this is very good, but I was thinking you would do what you did in The Fury, 33s into track 8 of the DE release, with a bit of those 8 minutes and 25 seconds at the end of The Temple of Doom, which didn't get released! You don't remember? I can hum it for you, I know all your scores by heart, becausze I'm your greatest admirer, Master, and that's why I wanted you to score my movie, because you're the greatest composer in the universe! But still, I'm surprised in that other scene you didn't do the same as in..."

One more thing: what if it were not Horner but another, unknown composer? Would you still insist on "John Williams or bust", instead of being down-to-earth, practical, and giving that other guy his chance?

Years ago, I thought if I ever did a movie, I would systematically hire Jerry Goldsmith or John Williams. But then, I realized for certain kinds of movies, some other composers would be-- yes-- better, more appropriate.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Most (pretty Pavlovian and-- dare I say it?-- fanboyish) reactions here show what poor directors you would be-- forcing your own view rather than analyzing, thinking, and discussing.

Indeed.

[Morn 8]

Most (pretty Pavlovian and-- dare I say it?-- fanboyish) reactions here show what poor directors you would be-- forcing your own view rather than analyzing, thinking, and discussing. Judging from such reactions, I'm sure if you did get John Williams or your favorite composer, you too would expect him to do what you want rather than discuss with him and let him do his thing-- "I want the John Williams sound!" "Oh no no no, wait, Maestro, this is very good, but I was thinking you would do what you did in The Fury, 33s into track 8 of the DE release, with a bit of those 8 minutes and 25 seconds at the end of The Temple of Doom, which didn't get released! You don't remember? I can hum it for you, I know all your scores by heart, becausze I'm your greatest admirer, Master, and that's why I wanted you to score my movie, because you're the greatest composer in the universe! But still, I'm surprised in that other scene you didn't do the same as in..."

Not at all, I'd be a fan enough of him to edit my movie around his music and give him a free hand. Horner however needs to be treated harshly, I mean he needs it, he's talented yet lazy, he just needs a shove. If he does little more than listen to the director then he has no integrity and that isn't any more admirable. Your example of Elfman there is what a composer with any shred of integrity should do. But if you have a composer who reuses old music when you hire him to write new music. Well that's actually illegal, it can be considered fraud and breaching a copyright. Not to mention immoral, you're paying him to compose music for you and he doesn't bother.

And I don't agree that he does a very good job of supporting films, maybe he makes a good mood, but still he scores a movie pretty superficially, I don't think he goes as in depth with the movies themes as someone like Goldsmith who is a master of depth does.

[Johnnyecks 33]

Coincedentally, I have been going through my Horner cd's recently and listening to them off and on throughout the day.

Back in my heyday of collecting (i.e., going to cd shops and purchasing on a daily basis) I came across several cd's to some obscure movies with Horner's name attached (Brainstorm, Gorky Park, Bopha, Red Heat, Unlawful Entry) and thought to myself "Wow, these are all crap films. He must not be good to listen to". So I avoided buying any of the 'better' films' cd's (Star Trek II, Cocoon (Mistakenly so), Batteries Not Included (another mistake), Field of Dreams, etc..) because I associated his name to crap films and therefore assumed that he was not a composer that I wished to listen to. Then came Braveheart. I was first introduced to Horner's music w/ Braveheart. And it was only through the Oscar ceremonies that I heard the theme, for I had yet to see the movie (waited till video...I know, I know...). I was so impressed with the little montage they gave when Braveheart won their Oscar's, that I raced to the store to purchase the cd.

I then fell in love with the score, and quickly purchased a few more Horner cds (Field of Dreams, Glory, Star Trek II and III, Legends of the Fall, Land Before Time) and that was that, so to speak. Horner became one of my favorite composers of the time, right up there with Williams, Elfman, Zimmer, and newly-founded Thomas Newman (I had yet to discover Goldsmith. That wouldn't happen for a few years yet).

In every subject where I read that people dis-liked him because he repeated himself, I always stood up for him for I did not mind. I loved his music, even if there were some similarities to his other works. I was able to track down all the cd's I could, and eventually caught up to his recent releases of the time, and throughly enjoyed all of them.

Then Bicentennial Man, and A Beautiful Mind came out, and even though I love those scores, I started to get a bit tired with Horner. Even though I still bought (and still do to this day) every cd released of his, my love for his music waned. I still have yet to listen to Enemy At The Gates, Freedom Song, Windtalkers, Troy, and even Legend of Zorro.

Now flash forward to the present, here I am re-discovering him again. I have been listening to his scores, only, for the past several days and I am enjoying them now just as much as I did back then. I listened to To Gillian.. this morning, and while it's a moody somber score, it is a nice one. Yes, you can tell it's Horner. His trademark is very noticeable.

So, long story short, I, too, would think it an honor to have Horner score my movie, and I wouldn't put any limitations on it. I would just tell him to do, what he does!

[Ollie 1,059]

Most (pretty Pavlovian and-- dare I say it?-- fanboyish) reactions here show what poor directors you would be-- forcing your own view rather than analyzing, thinking, and discussing.

Yes I'm sure you would be the ultimate director.

That's a poor comment to make. As a director I would know what voice I wanted on my film and after some 20 + years of listening to Horner I can say his lazy approach isn't what I would want.

There are many more worthwhile composers out there who don't constantly recycle their music.

[Bowie 45]

Seriously, though, if James Horner is going to score my film, and he's going to professionally follow my directorial advice and adhere to temp tracks, I'm gun frickin' avoid putting any Horner in the temps. I don't want him copying what he's already done. If he's going to be lazy, he might as well copy OTHER composers' music (Williams/Shosta/Tchaik etc) for his own good as a developing composer.

[Ollie 1,059]

Not counting John Williams I'd rather hire Bruce Broughton, Danny Elfman, Alan Silvestri, Basil Poledouris, Howard Shore, James Newton Howard or Michael Giacchino to score any film I would make.

Of course if I were in the movie industry I'd probably be doing something a little more creative than wasting my time on a silly argument on an internet message board pretending I am a director.

[Morn 8]

Which is a shame, would be nice to have someone in the industry posting here.

[Olivier 5]

Most (pretty Pavlovian and-- dare I say it?-- fanboyish) reactions here show what poor directors you would be-- forcing your own view rather than analyzing, thinking, and discussing.

Yes I'm sure you would be the ultimate director.

That's a poor comment to make. As a director I would know what voice I wanted on my film and after some 20 + years of listening to Horner I can say his lazy approach isn't what I would want.

There are many more worthwhile composers out there who don't constantly recycle their music.

I never imagined such a thing as being "the ultimate director".

Read the messages here (this topic and others), and listen again.

Horner is far from being the worst composer is often made out to be, just like Zimmer is far from being the antichrist of film music some fans believe he is.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I think it would be blatantly unprofessional to tell the man how to do his job. As a director, I would work with him through spotting and feedback on music, but I wouldn't say "here's how you're going to do this" before he even starts writing. We have no idea what his process of writing is, so criticising it is useless. If it does involve looking back on old scores, sure, I'd say something, but if it's what plays into his head as he watches a scene or just comes to him and he writes it down I'd go for it. If it had similarities to other music that I recognise I'd mention it, and try and explore as many options as possible, but if not, so be it.

I do agree with you In particular, my comments were a little tongue-in-cheek. We would all be honoured if the guy scored our movie - I've been listening to a lot of his stuff recently, and whilst there is some blatant plagiarism in places, there is also some incredible material in his past.

I was just highlighting what irritates me about Horner the most - I think he's an excellent composer otherwise (and several years ago I hate him and his style - shows how far I've come), and if he scored my movie I genuinely would be happy. I would restrict my comments professionally to just the type of score I was after.

However, along with Mark, I would try to approach someone else first, like JNH or Tom Newman before I took their decision of Horner.

[guyatkings 0]

I hope Horner impresses with his score for "All the King's Men," the film I anticipate the most this year.