Did Goldsmith ever conduct any of Williams' work?

[Marcus 390]

With all due respect; Sid Vicious was such a failure, in art as in life, that I really cannot see how any comparison with Herrmann is valid.

But you are funny, though!

And I humbly disagree as to manners and respectfulness. An John Williams is about as far from "middle of the road" as you get.

[pi 0]

atrocious vocal writing!

hmmm......what about that good old Beethoven ninth symphony?

and to say he was a poor orchestrator is retarted.

Beethoven wrote the "Mona Lisa" of Music in Sym. 5 with that same bad orchestration.

DOH!

well informed.

as am i.

-Pi

Who once gave a strictly Beethoven piano recital featuring the last four Beethoven sonatas, of the nearly 20 beethoven sonatas he knows.

:spiny:

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And I humbly disagree as to manners and respectfulness. An John Williams is about as far from "middle of the road" as you get.

He used to be, I'll give you that.

[pi 0]

I do have to admit Goldsmith would have kicked William's ass in a brawl.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

P.S.: I am not alone in my criticisms of Beethoven: Similar views have been voiced by Jerry Goldsmith, Francis Poulenc, Frederic Chopin and Maurice Ravel, among others.

And Brahms loathed Wagner and Bruckner. So?

Fidelio's narrative structure may be odd, but it's still great music, and certainly emotionally involving as well. Nothing wrong with the vocal writing if you ask me. And there are some brilliant orchestrations in his symphonies.

[Marcus 390]

Well, as far as the ninth symphony goes, the vocal writing is about as unidiomatic as anything this side of Brian Ferneyhough. And the orchestrations of the fifth are poor as well. Compare them to Haydn's, or Mozart's or Schubert's!

Even his piano writing is at times very clumsy, and sounds quite bad on a modern piano, but a little cleaner on Hammerklaviers.

[pi 0]

Well, as far as the ninth symphony goes, the vocal writing is about as unidiomatic as anything this side of Brian Ferneyhough. And the orchestrations of the fifth are poor as well. Compare them to Haydn's, or Mozart's or Schubert's!

Even his piano writing is at times very clumsy, and sounds quite bad on a modern piano, but a little cleaner on Hammerklaviers.

Well this is pointless. You are obviously one of those narrow minded conservatory people who was tought to hate Beethoven by some teacher who calls real music throwing golf balls down a marimba while shuffling your feet on sand paper.

Listen to the Eroica if you have any doubts of his complete mastery of the orchestra or The Tempest Sonata if you doubt his pianist writing.

[Marcus 390]

But my dear 3,14...

I heard a marvellous performance of the "Eroica" only a few weeks back. I know the symphony very well, of course.

And I'm certainly not the kind of composer you seem to think I am. My teachers have included Corigliano and Danielpour, and my inclinations are towards a more romantic language.

But I'm sorry if I have offended you.

My observations are unsentimental here, I only look at Beethoven from the point of view of a craftsman, and I daresay an experienced one. Ask any choral director about the ninth, and you'll find they share my opinion.

We're not talking about the music here, but the technique.

By the way, everyone: I am sorry if I've inspired the decline of this thread to a mere "Clash of the Composers"...

[pi 0]

Its ok I laugh when I hear stuff like that. My theory is that when you become educated enough you feel you are too elite to enjoy the more popular pieces by the masters. The beethoven nine's impact was so crazy that people just STOPPED writing symphonies for a while. PS he was DEAF!?!?!?! Holy shit - how can that be over looked!!??!!

Who gives a shit about technique when it sounds so good? Isn't it better technique to sound good then to have bad technique and sound like shit? I just have a problem, and this argument continually with my estmn and jllrd friends, about how teachers/pupils disregard a whole piece/composer becuase they do not resolve down by a half or up by a third.

Anyway I am over it starting now. By the way what ever happend to Vanilla coke? do they make that anymore?

[nightscape94 965]

You seem to be under the assumption that everyone should share your opinion, which isn't the case. I love when people say, "ask any....and you'll find that they share my opinion." The most egotistical thing you could do is present your idea or way of thinking as the only right way or solution. Sorry to disappoint you, but you are incorrect.

Tim

P.S. I just saw a recent performance of Beethoven's 9th with the Philadelphia Orchestra last weekend, and it was glorious. I guess I'm wrong in thinking that then, because I do not see it your way.

[Marcus 390]

I never said it wasn't glorious, just that the vocal writing is unidiomatic...

And it's not about everyone "seeing it my way", but there are certain things that most professionals tend to agree on, certain technical issues..

That is all.

I'm glad you enjoyed the performance!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I never said it wasn't glorious, just that the vocal writing is unidiomatic...

And it's not about everyone "seeing it my way", but there are certain things that most professionals tend to agree on, certain technical issues..

But that's all rubbish!

Music isn't made for professionals.

It's the professionals that have to perform it, for us!

Your opinion about a piece doesn't matter, just do a good job performing it!

[Marcus 390]

O.K., I can't argue with that, nor did I ever really mean to. The issues I refer to are the ones we professionals tend to address to each other, and hope to learn from.

So we can serve an audience even better.

Yours humbly,

Marcus

Oh, and for the record, Pi:

I am all about the desserts of the repertoire! I love the classics (if they're good)...

And I am sorry to have come off an elitist, which I am not.

Just a humble, but tremendously opinionated hard working composer.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's OK.

But I tend not te be extremely interested in professional opinions.

If musicians opinions really mattered they would be making money writing collums for the London Times.

I buy CD's to hear them make music, not talk about it.

[King Mark 3,631]

He conducted a quote of Superman's theme in the Supergirl score

K.m.Who hasn't read all the thread to check if that got mentionned.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Actually it was, by me...

[King Mark 3,631]

If i work hard tonight i'll be 1/10 closer to Masterhood.

K.M.

[pi 0]

It would have been cool if JW would have completed a sequel JG score.

[publicist 4,643]

Yes.

The prime candidate would be 'Mr. Baseball does HongKong'.

Actually, i wouldn't say Williams has NO style, that was just a random example of the beloved 'provocative thesis' people like to throw around to provoke any reaction.

But to argue with 'show me any composer with a more distinctive style than Williams' is reeeaaally stretching it.

To idolize someone doesn't mean that you have to act like a retard. Williams uses a musical palette which comfortably ranges in the established styles of 19th and 20th century music without overly challenging them. And that's great, because he's good at it.

A solid to great craftsman with a keen ear for melody...that Williams leaves a stamp on the musical heritage like Herrmann is just wishful thinking (if you discount the ratio of Silva-Samplers or the likes featuring them). The point is, i think, that the most famous Herrmanns provokes psychological reactions from the listener, whereas most of Johnny's big hits are of an overtly showman-like nature (and please don't cite those lonely counter-examples like 'Images')

And what anything of this has to do with being nice or nasty still remains a mystery...

[Ollie 1,059]

Ok....so outside of Supergirl Goldsmith didn't conduct any of Williams' works

[publicist 4,643]

In an ultra-secret private concert for Beverly Hills residents only, Goldsmith once fulfilled his lifelong dream of conducting a concert of a 'Star Wars' suite, which ran for roughly 9 hours and had everything from a 12-minute piece called `Boba Fett's' fugue to a 20-minute-piece called 'Jar-Jar's Adagio', arranged by Goldsmith himself out of admiration for Williams' Prokoviev-imitations.

It was attended by John Williams, James Horner and The President of the United States.

There you have it.

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

I have a bootleg of that...

ttbk

Star Wars (Goldsmith's rejected score)

[Marcus 390]

Dear Publicist! The challenge still stands: Name a contemporary classical-or film composer with a more distinct style than Williams!

As a highly educated professional composer, I must say that referring to Williams as a "solid to great" craftsman is quite an understatement.

And as to reactions generated by music, psychological or emotional or intellectual, we really cannot be the judge of reactions other than our own.

If you mean to imply that Williams somehow lacks "depth", I dare you to define musical "depth".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would say Jerry Goldsmith has a more instantly reconizable style.

So does John Barry.

[Marcus 390]

Thank you, Steef! Although I disagree, they are certianly both composers with a recognizable style, even though I find Barry's style outside of a James Bond context somewhat less pregnant.

And very sadly, Goldsmith is no longer a contemporary composer in the strictest sense of the word.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Semantics.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I would say Jerry Goldsmith has a more instantly reconizable style.

So does John Barry.

And that is a good thing or not?

That is the question.

[publicist 4,643]

Modern composers with a distinctive style (and around Williams age, mostly) could be Boulez, Messiaen, Kagel, Henze, Ligeti, Stockhausen, Cage, Glass, Rodney-Bennett or even Kilar...i find his music distinctive, but it bores me.

Film composers? Tom Newman, Goldenthal?

If you really discount these guys, you're simply a wimpering Williams fanboy and nothing more. Newman certainly has done more to establish new trends in film music, lately...as has Hans Zimmer, but let's not go there...can full of worms...

And...if you really think 'Treesong' or the likes proof Williams superiority....well, i can't help you then. His film music ranges from quite good to adequate, but i`m somehow afraid you're ready to prove that every note Williams produces is touched by the fairies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And...if you really think 'Treesong' or the likes proof Williams superiority....well, i can't help you then. His film music ranges from quite good to adequate, but i`m somehow afraid you're ready to prove that every note Williams produces is touched by the fairies.

It's like I'm seeing my own deepest innermost thought transcribed here on my PC screen!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

And you had to hire a publicist to tell us.

But if Williams goes JUST from quite good to adecuate i dont want to hear how the other film composers fare.

Come on, one or two Williams works have to be masterpieces...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well I actually mostly think that of Williams more recent works.

Williams has done plenty of masterpieces, and if publicist doesn't think so, then I don't know what he is doing here.

[publicist 4,643]

I love scores like 'Dracula', 'Images', 'Close Encounters', 'Indy II' or 'Empire of the Sun', 'Born on the Fourth of July' (and some others) deeply...

But that doesn't mean that i have to rate Williams as the musical avant-garde of the 21st century. In my book, quite good is a great compliment.

Adequate...well, i think that sums up my opinion of scores like (i.e.) 'Patriot', 'Far and Away', 'Stepmom', 'Spacecamp' and recently 'Munich'. They're far from 'bad', but i certainly wouldn't rate them above...let's say 'Cobb' or even 'Mary Reilly' by the always underestimated George Fenton.

But of course, if 'Pirates of the Carribbean' is your benchmark, then Williams has a lot of steam ahead...

[Marcus 390]

Dear Publicist! Thank you for your informative reply!

I wouldn't say that Rodney-Bennett or Stockhausen or Kagel really have very distinctive styles (beyond the mere philosophical/theoretical aspects of Stockhausen's music), but they are certainly distinct musical personalities of the last fifty years++.

I never said Williams is the "avantgarde" of the 21st century. Thankfully, he is not! The "avantgarde", in the modernist perspective, is a terribly dated and boring paradigm, and I think Williams' concert music is a very welcome relief from those tendencies. Long live the "retrogarde"!

Goldenthal has a distinctive voice, albeit stylistically/technically very limited.

And I agree, Fenton deserves more recognition. But he is still not a composer of Williams' calibre. Nor is Stockhausen.

[publicist 4,643]

'Avant garde' has more than one meaning...

And i certainly would say that a concert work by Rodney-Bennett is as distinctive as one by Williams....which is the only way of evaluating these things. I hardly could compare 'Episode III' with a Boulez piece...

If this comes of as overly critical of Williams, it's really not. I like him, too. But i get alarmed if the old 'Beethoven and *insert random classical composer here*-routine' is used to elevate Williams to some lofty heights, only because some people love to jerk off while listening to 'Hook'...and yes...that's polemic,i know it.

[Marcus 390]

I am afraid that you misunderstand where I'm coming from here. Since roughly the 30's, and steadily more from WWII on, "avant-garde" (frontline) has been synonymous with a modernist (non-traditional) artistic/ aesthetic outlook.

I'm looking at this from the point of view of a classically trained professional composer who is tired of the absence of great craft in most contemporary music (and art in general), and who is thrilled to find it alive and well in the works of Williams, be it film- or concert music. Of course one wouldn't compare a soundtrack to a symphony. But to other theatrical and stage works, perhaps?

I find Boulez terribly overrated, by the way, both as a composer and a conductor.

[pi 0]

I love how off topic things get on the second page.

[Marcus 390]

Also, I have no problem comparing Williams and Boulez as composers strictly in terms of craftsmanship. I don't care what the music was written for! It would be absurd, for instance, to deem Williams a "B" composer

simply based on the medium he serves. Music is music, and craft is craft. Anything else would be silly and snobbish.

Boulez is a fine orchestrator, though. But the whole post-Webernistic school is really a parenthesis in the history of music. I wouldn't take it too seriously..

[Adam 1]

I don’t mind saying that I don’t regard JW as having a style. Sure he has a musical voice- there’s something we recognize in his music - but I still have trouble calling that a style. I mean does Penolope, his violin concerto, Missouri Breaks and Star Wars all fall within a John Williams style? That seems like the wrong word - these pieces are very different stylistically. It seems like people are either referring to something abstract in his musical voice that we recognize even when the style of music is very different or people are thinking about the bulk of scores that fall within his more traditional, orchestral approach.

And though most people seem to disagree, its worth noting that John Williams, when asked recently about his style, answered that he didn’t have one. So I at least have him to back me up on this point.

- Adam

[QMM 4]

Music is subjective, let's just leave it at that

[pi 0]

Can one have style yet also be eclectic?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I don't think any artist is consciously aware of their own style, unless it's a very forced one.

[Adam 1]

Again, people are evidently defining style much more broadly than me (and JW apparently). If somebody can explain the style that unites the scores I mentioned, I could be convinced that JW is delusional with regard to not hearing his own style. But I've never heard it. JW has said that every composer has a musical voice - he said its as inescapable as a person's handwriting. So maybe that's what people are trying to say and he's using a different word. If so, I think his formulation is more accurate as opposed to trying to say that Not With My Wife You Don't and his flute concerto are somehow stylistically related.

- Adam

[pi 0]

Yes i am very confused by now - I am not sure who is refuting and supporting what. I think unless you are copying a temp or something like that everyone has style. Certain people have more recognizable ones. Jerry Goldsmith had many different styles. John Williams has like 1 or 2.

[Marcus 390]

By style, I mean simply a set of techniques and preferances. Although Williams has covered a vast array of musical styles and textures, they all stem from the same fundamental "style", which I am prepared to discuss in great detail, should anyone be interested.

[Adam 1]

It could be interesting, especially if you could apply it to scores that are very different from eachother like the one's I mentioned. You sort of make my point about JW's formulation being better because you use the word "style" in two different contexts, admitting that he uses different styles but then also using the word to explain what I tend to think of as something very abstract in his creative approach that speaks to some fundamental musical voice that every composer will have. Calling this a style is misleading IMO but I at least see where you're coming from now.

- Adam

[artyjeffrey 20]

Williams rendition of the Star trek TMP theme is too slow for my taste.

I agree. Why slow it down?

[Quintus 5,399]

Although Williams certainly has his own distinctive sound, I find it difficult to pin him down to a particular style. And that is a good thing, a measure of his talent. He is capable of adapting to many styles and not just limited to the one.

As brilliant as John Barry is, all of his music sounds like it was written in the sixties. Thats his style. Which I happen to like.

Just a side note: John Barry's strings are my favourites in the scoring business. Soooo soothing they are

[ChrisAfonso 186]

as for style, well, I dare anyone to name a living composer with a more immediately recognizable style than Williams.

I give you one: Hans Zimmer.

(recognizable != automatically good)

BTW, regarding the "Beethoven writes technically bad music for performers"... I don't have the most thorough experience there, but all Beethoven pieces I have performed (5th symphony and Egmont overture) were a pain in the ass/arm on the last page of the violin part... several minutes of uninterrupted tremolo in fff... and my stand partner was off worse than me because of strained wrist... and then play the damn thing 5 times in succession in rehearsal, before the concert...

Not that Beethoven is the only composer doing this

Although Williams certainly has his own distinctive sound, I find it difficult to pin him down to a particular style. And that is a good thing, a measure of his talent. He is capable of adapting to many styles and not just limited to the one.

As brilliant as John Barry is, all of his music sounds like it was written in the sixties. Thats his style. Which I happen to like.

Just a side note: John Barry's strings are my favourites in the scoring business. Soooo soothing they are

From what I've heard of Barry, his orchestrations are somewhat superficial and bland... don't take me wrong, the bond theme is cool, and some otehr stuff too, but it's all not very diverse in itself... (Take dawn raid on Fort Knox for example... starts with a good sound for the scene... and then just extends the same stuff without change in orchestration for several minutes.. .*Argh*)

And I once borrowed the "Dances with Wolves" CD... I couldn't even get through it once, it was boring me to death.

[pi 0]

BTW, regarding the "Beethoven writes technically bad music for performers"... I don't have the most thorough experience there, but all Beethoven pieces I have performed (5th symphony and Egmont overture) were a pain in the ass/arm on the last page of the violin part... several minutes of uninterrupted tremolo in fff... and my stand partner was off worse than me because of strained wrist... and then play the damn thing 5 times in succession in rehearsal, before the concert...  

Not that Beethoven is the only composer doing this

Stravinsky is even worse. I played the piano part to Petrushka at a concert once - well its like impossible to play sitting down you have to sit really tensley or stand up like jerry lee lewis. The counting is the hardest thing of those pieces. Next time you see th orc play one watch all the woodwinds and brass counting with their fingers and lips its really funny.

[Jeshopk 8]

And I humbly disagree as to manners and respectfulness. An John Williams is about as far from "middle of the road" as you get.

He used to be, I'll give you that.

To what do you refer as middle of the road in his recent scores? Name a few.