Horner's 4-note danger motif

[publicist 4,643]

FYI, 'Alexander Nevsky' only got a 3-note-danger-motif...which Horner ripped mainly for 'Battle beyond the Stars'...and maybe some 'Star Trek', i never listened carefully.

The Rachmaninoff is the most logical choice, since Horner is a VERY russian-influenced composer....these 4 notes transformed 'Troy' into a big laugh for me....and for that, i have to be thankful to Mr. Horner.

[Morlock 11]

Williams uses the four-note "Dies Irae" motif in a lot of his scores, and nobody minds.

Where does he use a Dies Irae motif? I can only think of CE3K.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Williams used this 'danger' motif in superman, several times in a fast tempo, in Lex Luthor's Lair 4:18 and beyond

Or at least it reminded me of it.

Horner is a hack!

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

The Rachmaninoff is the most logical choice, since Horner is a VERY russian-influenced composer....these 4 notes transformed 'Troy' into a big laugh for me....and for that, i have to be thankful to Mr. Horner.

He certainly knows his Wagner though. There's a ton of Wagner quotes and near-quotes in Krull.

Williams used the Dies Irae also in Home Alone. The difference is that when he uses it, the intention is that people notice it and make a conscious connection. Horner just keeps reusing that thing over and over again with apparently no deeper meaning at all. And no, I don't even really mind this one, but it does strike me as funny, especially when having heard nearly the same figure non-stop in Wagner's music (and in his case, every single time it appears is for good reason).

[Henry B 50]

Williams uses the four-note "Dies Irae" motif in a lot of his scores, and nobody minds.

Where does he use a Dies Irae motif? I can only think of CE3K.

Off the top of my head, Star Wars, CE3K, Home Alone, Jurassic Park, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, and War of the Worlds. I'm sure it's in more than that, but I haven't heard every Williams score. I agree with Marian that it's intentional. Works pretty well, in fact.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Were is it in these scores?

[tony69 0]

ur joking. i've heard that one for sure. its in troy. over and over and over. in muted tpts.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Yes, it's highly annoying in Troy.

Off the top of my head, Star Wars, CE3K, Home Alone, Jurassic Park, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, and War of the Worlds. I'm sure it's in more than that, but I haven't heard every Williams score. I agree with Marian that it's intentional. Works pretty well, in fact.

SW? JP? AOTC? ROTS? WOTW? (Luckily these all are scores with well-known acronyms...)... I've never heard it in those. Where?

[King Mark 3,625]

anyone has a souundclip of the die Irae theme so I can judge for myself?

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah!

[nightscape94 965]

What, exactly, is the Dies Irae motif? I've learned that it was from a "Latin Requiem Mass" and that Rachmaninov was apparently obsessed with it, and has been used by a lot of people like Berlioz and Saint-Saëns, among others...

But what is it? When ever I listened to a Requiem, I never picked up on any similarities in the motif, like Verdi, Mozart, Faure, etc...

Tim

[Henry B 50]

OK, here goes.

Star Wars:

"Tales of a Jedi Knight/Learn About the Force" 3:30-3:48

Close Encounters of the Third Kind:

"The Mountain" motif; see "Forming the Mountain," "Roy and Gillian on the Road," etc.

Home Alone:

"Carol of the Bells" motif; appearances of Marley, "Setting the Trap," etc.

Jurassic Park:

secondary theme; see beginning of "High Wire Stunts"

Attack of the Clones/Revenge of the Sith:

"Lament"/"Anakin's Betrayal" motif; see "Anakin's Betrayal," end of "Anakin's Dark Deeds," unreleased music (all unreleased in Clones)

War of the Worlds:

"Epilogue" 0:21-1:51

I've heard a choral version of "Dies Irae" before. I think it was by Beethoven, but I'm not sure. Anyway, Williams only quotes the first four notes of this. He usually does something different afterward. However, the prequels feature the same eight notes as Jurassic Park does.

[pi 0]

Sometimes the E is natural.

I think Paganini was the first composer to use it - Listz wrote his Totentanz piano concerto using the motif. I think the motif derives from old school greogrian chant.

Rachmaninoff used it so many times, most notibely in the first A minor Etude Tableuax.

Often only the first four notes are used.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Jurassic Park:

secondary theme; see beginning of "High Wire Stunts"

Hm yes, I never noticed that. As an ostinato like in this case, I'm not that sure it has any special meaning though.

Tim: It doesn't have anything to do with the Requiems composed by Mozart, Verdi etc. If you're looking for it in classical music, the easiest thing to do is to get Berlioz Symphonie fantastique (generally a good idea ) and listen to the last movement.

[nightscape94 965]

Tim: It doesn't have anything to do with the Requiems composed by Mozart, Verdi etc. If you're looking for it in classical music, the easiest thing to do is to get Berlioz Symphonie fantastique (generally a good idea ) and listen to the last movement.

I'll check it out. I already have a copy of the Symphonie fantastique, conducted by Karajan. I never really analyzed it, however.

Tim

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

War of the Worlds:

"Epilogue" 0:21-1:51

If it is what i heard, then you left A.I. from your list, since that WOTW music sounds alot like criogenics (cybertronics), for example...

By the way, no one can compare this Williams usage of Dies Irae with Horner's Danger Motif. William's is barely unnoticeable, its not like 'hey, i heard that same motif in other movies'.(except maybe in this AI-WOTW excerpt)

[Henry B 50]

Yeah, A.I. too. Thanks for the reminder.

[ymenard 54]

It took me years to find out what it was.On this level,maybe Horner uses it to signify danger on a subconcious level for the movie audience,rather than inventing a new danger theme each time to please score fans.

That's exactly what he does. It's why he's so successfull, and why Hollywood producers all wanted him so much in the 90's. The plonking plano, the military drums, his trademark orchestration of brass and strings, it all sound the same to create something the audience feels at ease with. It's all about the business, and bang vs. buck there wasn't anybody like him to "elevate" a movie for it's score quality. Because it's still quality.

I mean from Khan to ProjectX, or Troy, or anything, it's there for a reason. That's why he'll never be remembered as a true composer of unique scores, but a true composer of a perfect mood for movie scoring.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

I'll check it out.  I already have a copy of the Symphonie fantastique, conducted by Karajan.  I never really analyzed it, however.

That's the recording I was going to recommend. And not much need to analyse it, really. The big theme in the final movement is all you've been asking for.

The Village (James Newton Howard)

[pi 0]

They should rename that Symphonie Borring.....

[tony69 0]

Sometimes the E is natural.

I think Paganini was the first composer to use it  - Listz wrote his Totentanz piano concerto using the motif. I think the motif derives from old school greogrian chant.

Rachmaninoff used it so many times, most notibely in the first A minor Etude Tableuax.

Often only the first four notes are used.

actually, that's not right. its:

FEFDECCD.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

In The Symphonie Fantastique it's FEFDECDD (...FFGFEDCEFE dD).

It also features prominently in Ysayë's 2nd sonata for violin solo, which btw is a stunning piece of music (as are all the Ysayë sonatas).

[pi 0]

i just took my example from the finale of the paganini variations from rachmaninoff - set it to what ever mode you like - D dorian in yours

[ChrisAfonso 186]

No D minor in mine I don't usually put key signatures in front of small examples, or longer works, for that matter.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why don't you people write it down in letters instead of these weird symbols, then there would not be this confusion.

I mean the Latin Alphabet is a tried and tested way of communicating a message to each other.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

You mean like this:

Violin clef common time A crotchet G crotchet A crotchet F crotchet G crotchet E-flat crotchet F minim

Would that be easier for you to read?

[nightscape94 965]

Dose sound like d'em's fightin's words!

Tim

[pi 0]

Modes still exist when no key signatures are used.

[adamtron 0]

I think Chris Afonso has the notes right. It is used several times in Willow during scenes with General Kael (the evil guy wearing the skull mask) and during the battle scenes. I actually liked it's use in Willow. But it bothered me that it showed up in Troy because I already had associated it with Willow. I know it's only four notes and not a complete piece, but it was slightly like hearing Duel of the Fates show up in Pirates of the Caribbean or something. But for someone that never heard it before, they would not have that problem.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Without the L please.

[pi 0]

Hey i just heard willow - thats a pretty nice score.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

yeah

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I've heard a choral version of "Dies Irae" before. I think it was by Beethoven, but I'm not sure.

*twitches* No, it was Mozart. And I'm quite sure the choral version is the only version.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Cerrabore, shouldn't the first note in your musical signature be a 5th higher? (D)

Also the rhythm seems to be somewhat warped...

[scissorhands 16]

But for someone that never heard it before, they would not have that problem.

Yeah, I heard it in "Enemy at the Gates" for the first time, and I associate this motif with that movie, and I still think it's its best use to date.

[Vaderbait1 1]

It's not a bad motif by any means, it's just SERIOUSLY overused. It's like when you see a movie that's a carbon copy of another good movie. You don't like the movie because it's a copy, but it's still good (sometimes).

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

*twitches* No, it was Mozart.

Mozart? Where did he use it?

[Marcus 390]

Greetings, everyone!

Pi, just change your A to an Ab, and we have the "Dies Irae" in F minor.

I think a lot of the examples of "D.I" quotes listed above really refer simply to a melodic device known as a "cambiata". A most interesting example of a "Dies Irae" paraphrase (not quote) is the melodic motto from "Battle of the Heroes", which I'm surprised not to have seen mentioned before. And it is a very fitting paraphrase, as we are indeed witnessing a "day of wrath".

[pi 0]

Well in literature it is harmonized many ways. Change g to a sharp and we are in the harmonic minor. Rachmaninoff harmonizes his using whole step chords - Am - Gm - Am - F - Gm etc.... john williams uses it in natural minor. its a very useful little motif to create movement.

[Marcus 390]

No, Pi, you misunderstand my point: You've notated the motif incorrectly; You've given us a "whole-tone" Dies Irae, and your A needs to be an Ab, no matter what harmonic context you wish to present it in, or rather, your first interval must be that of a falling minor second. As it stands, it is only related to the Dies Irae motif in terms of contour.

[pi 0]

Ok whatever - lets not get in another argument, i will just trust rachmaninoff.

[Marcus 390]

You can trust Rachmaninoff on many things, but I'm afraid you are trusting a melodic transformation of his, rather than the original motif, which is an old Gregorian chant. And usually, in Paganini, Liszt, Berlioz or Williams or whoever, the original motif is what is quoted. But it doesn't matter,- forgive me for being rather anal here.

[codanai 0]

Marcus is correct. The 4th note played (3rd note introduced) in the "Dies Irae" is tonic in a minor key; therefore your example, pi, must be written in F minor, as Marcus said.

I also agree that Williams's use of the "Dies Irae" is always fitting and never obtrusive--for example, I think of in HOME ALONE, when old man Marley slaps his hand down on the shop counter, Williams uses the Dies Irae, and--though I know it's the Dies Irae--it works splendidly in that instance.

On the other hand, Horner's danger motif, after WILLOW, became very distracting, and after use after use, it simply became a pure joke. Could it be that that 4-note chromatic motif is just so forceful and biting that you can't help but notice it when it's used?

[tuneman_21 0]

You can hear an "altered" version of the 4-note danger theme in Titanic. It's in a solo trumpet line in the cue for when the Titanic strikes the ice burg. Also, the Klingon Theme in Star Trek 3 is an altered version of the theme. Descending by whole steps instead of ascending.

[codanai 0]

Since we're on the subject, Horner also commonly uses what my brother and I jokingly refer to as "The Horner Scale."

Here's an example of it as it appears in STAR TREK III ("Bird of Prey De-Cloaks," 2:25-2:35):

Horner also uses it in TITANIC ("Take Her to Sea, Mr. Murdoch," 1:05-1:20), a bit of it in WILLOW ("Willow the Sorcerer," 5:44-5:54), and I'm certain he uses it in scores like THE ROCKETEER and his cartoon scores as well.

[Jeshopk 8]

I don't agree that the Dies Irae is in everything you guys say it is. It's such a banal little obvious snippet it's bound to happen now and then. I don't agree that it was an intentional reference in CE3K or JP. Just a composer writing the intervals he thought were effective.

[Ollie 1,059]

You guys missed the most obvious reference to Dies Irae in ROTS, The beginning of Battle Of The Heroes.

It makes sense if you think about it.

[Marcus 390]

Dear Mark,

Did you perhaps miss my post on "Battle of the Heroes" further up this page?

[Ollie 1,059]

Apparently I did.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

I don't agree that it was an intentional reference in CE3K or JP. Just a composer writing the intervals he thought were effective.

I always found it very fitting in CE3K. And there's that one moment where it's played in its "normal" rhythm.