Zimmer Sued by Holst Foundation

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

Anybody ever noticed this before?

[JMan 0]

zimmer blows. Please excuse my bluntness.

[bruckhorn 105]

If anyone is going to sue Williams over the theme from Star Wars, it's Anton Bruckner. Listen to the first version of the opening movement of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony and see if it sounds familiar. Not identical, similar.

As for Eidelman's Star Trek VI: how about Igor Stravinsky? Listen to the opening of The Firebird (complete ballet, not just the suite). Eidelman "flipped" the opening figure for the beginning of his overture.

Yes, classical composers quoted each other. In the first version of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony, he quotes several of Richard Wagner's Themes from The Ring, but does not develop them or quote full orchestration. For Bruckner to do that was understandable: he idolized Wagner and dedicated his Third Symphony to the man. The Adagio for his Seventh Symphony was inspired by Bruckner's thinking that Wagner was about to die; it is musical lore that Bruckner received word of Wagner's death just as he came to compose the climax of the piece.

In The Right Stuff arranged by Bill Conti, the credits lists several movements from The Planets, but makes no mention of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto, or Glazunov's Seasons. The latter two works were in the public domain and were free game for Conti to use as he wished. According to Conti, after redoing several cues over and over to make them more like Holst, Conti told the director that they had to get the rights to use Holst's music. Very little of that score is original and yet Conti won an Oscar for it.

The Holst Foudation has a case. The question is whether the case will go to a jury made up of people not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

If anyone is going to sue Williams over the theme from Star Wars, it's Anton Bruckner.  Listen to the first version of the opening movement of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony and see if it sounds familiar.  Not identical, similar.  

What about Korngold? King's Row, anyone?

[Jeshopk 8]

Good god. Kings Row? Bruckner 4th? Does anyone honestly believe those are as blatantly similar to Star Wars as Gladiator's battle music is to Mars? These shouldn't even be given as analogies unless you have no idea how to discern a rip-off from a similarity. Even Star Wars' "Mars" moments are no-where near rip-off status.

[benefactor 3]

Good god. Kings Row? Bruckner 4th? Does anyone honestly believe those are as blatantly similar to Star Wars as Gladiator's battle music is to Mars? These shouldn't even be given as analogies unless you have no idea how to discern a rip-off from a similarity. Even Star Wars' "Mars" moments are no-where near rip-off status.

I listened again The Battle from Gladiator and Mars back to back and I’m sorry but I didn’t hear any rip-off signs here. There are similarities of course (I clearly remember what I thought in movie theater six years ago: “Wow! This is inspired by Holst’s Mars”) but where is rip-off there? Where are those absolutely similar harmonic or melodic lines to call it RIP-OFF and to ask for good compensation?

May be it is section from 5:25 to 5:50 in The Battle which is very close to Mars? But it is still seems different enough to me. To call it "basically just a Mars remix" is just a gross overstatement, really. :roll:

If you’ll be a lawyer of Holst Foundation what parts of The Battle and Mars you’d play in court to prove your case?

[futuremartymcfly 0]

I've got a feeling he'ld bring in more then just the "music" to court, and would instead bring Music Theory Ideas and interpretations.

[ridan 0]

So when is Yared going to get sued for Troy?

Justin - :roll:

According to a Yared interview about Troy, he had never listened to Holst before he was rejected. A friend recommended he listen to it, saying it sounded just like film music, and Yared consequently avoided it like the plague. Later, when he heard about people saying that the ostinato at the end of "Approach of the Greeks" was lifted from Mars, he was flabbergasted, and listened to it then. He noted the irony of this.

(BTW, does anyone remember where this interview appeared?)

[nightscape94 965]

You'd figure that it would be almost impossible for a composer or a lover of orchestra music to somehow avoid "Mars". It's one of the most popular pieces of music of all times.

Tim

[ChrisAfonso 186]

As for Eidelman's Star Trek VI: how about Igor Stravinsky?  Listen to the opening of The Firebird (complete ballet, not just the suite).  Eidelman "flipped" the opening figure for the beginning of his overture.

If you've ever taken the time to read the liner notes, this was totally intentional. The director wanted somethign "firebirdy", and Eidelman made a demo with this overnight and got the job.

The interesting part of that is, in "Mars" the ostinato is exactly the same every bar after bar. The ostinato in "Approach of the Greeks" is not, it changes rhythmic form the whole time (see here).

Additionally this is in 4/4, Mars is in 5/4. (And again, Horner copied that exact ostinato in its 5/4 form in "Zorro")

[Panthera 0]

This is really weird. Just today I got The Planets from my public library and when I listened to the first track I thought I was listening to Gladiator. Then I wondered if Hans Zimmer coppied it from The Planets. Later today I come to this website and find out Hans Zimmer is getting sued for the similarity.

[Ollie 1,059]

I think the "King's Row" vs "Star Wars" arguments are very thin.

When I listen to it there is nothing that reminds me of Star Wars.

[Romão 2,274]

Actually the track that reminds me the most of The Planets is The Barbarian Horde. And the final of that very same track is blatant rip-off of Gottardamerung.

[tony69 0]

Actually the track that reminds me the most of The Planets is The Barbarian Horde. And the final of that very same track is blatant rip-off of Gottardamerung.

i do not hear gotterdammerung, and i know that piece extremely well having conducted parts of it. where? if you're referring to siegfrieds' funeral dance which might 'kind of' be possible, i very highly doubt there's an intentional copying. that technique have been overused by many other composers, classical and romantic.

and where's the holst? can someone point to timings in the barbarian horde or the battle.

[ridan 0]

It's in the background throughout at least 'The Battle', usually in the background. Can't give exact timings right now, though. Just listen for an ostinato.

[Romão 2,274]

Actually the track that reminds me the most of The Planets is The Barbarian Horde. And the final of that very same track is blatant rip-off of Gottardamerung.

i do not hear gotterdammerung, and i know that piece extremely well having conducted parts of it. where? if you're referring to siegfrieds' funeral dance which might 'kind of' be possible, i very highly doubt there's an intentional copying. that technique have been overused by many other composers, classical and romantic.

and where's the holst? can someone point to timings in the barbarian horde or the battle.

It's from Siegfried's funeral indeed. In Gladiator you can hear it in that track, just before the main theme is played in the end of the track. Zimmer even refered to this has putting his German hat on and using some Wagner, or something along those lines.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Yared's troy doesnt have just the ostinato, i think some of the melody is there too...

[GoodMusician 56]

Can Hans Zimmer sue himself?

All joking aside...

If I remember right, isn't Gladiators theme simply a recylced rejected theme from The Lion King... clearly--and nearly completely--heard in the part where Simba runs through the pridelands to head back. Or something like that... I think it's called "This Land?"

Does this mean he could get sued for The Lion King too? Or are they just suing becuase it's too similar in Gladiator...

Does that mean they'll sue him for Pirates of the Caribbean too?

God where does it end?!

[nicholas 1]

This is getting increasingly disturbing. I mean, it HAS to be a joke about the Holst Foundation, doesn't it?

[tony69 0]

from a composer's point of view, this is a ridiculous case. as a composer, what we write comes from what we hear. our stylistic tendencies represent an unbroken chain of influence from way back. the point is, it is not uncommon for a composer to sound like another composer. sometimes the similarity is completely intentional, say the piece is based on a previous work, or a tribute. ex. haydn in brahm's variations. in other cases, it's just an influence that is there.

I think it is impossible for a composer to be completely original; everything originated from something. Thus, the Holst Foundation suing Zimmer is a ridiculous thing. It's like beethoven's descendents saying i'm gonna sue you because you used something that sounds like my 5th sympony (tho he doesnt have any descendents).

Though, what i think the main point behind the case is not a case of plagiarism. it is more a case on not enough acknowledgement. I think holst foundation wants zimmer to acknowledge this influence.

[CheeHoe 0]

It's been bugging me for years but do you think the flute solo in the middle part of Jaws theme is exactly the same as the beginning of Michael Jackson's Heal the World?

[Ollie 1,059]

As far as I know John Williams, Universal and their attorneys don't so there's nothing to worry about.

[ymenard 54]

According to a Yared interview about Troy, he had never listened to Holst before he was rejected.  

Not that I don't trust him, but how can anybody who not only appreciates classical music, but has it as a job composing it, say he never listened to Holst????

"Hi I'm a racecar driver. What's a Ferrari?"

[Quintus 5,399]

Hi, I'm a movie buff. What the hell is the Star Wars prequel trilogy?

It's been bugging me for years but do you think the flute solo in the middle part of Jaws theme is exactly the same as the beginning of Michael Jackson's Heal the World?

Yeah, I noticed that years ago. I always tell people that Williams himself actually wrote the song (gullible fools ) . In the same way that Elton John basically writes his songs - the music. The lyrics owe it all to the music.

[nightscape94 965]

Maybe Jackson used to show Jaws at the Neverland Ranch and it just got stuck in his head.

Tim, frightened by that idea

[Romão 2,274]

According to a Yared interview about Troy, he had never listened to Holst before he was rejected.  

Not that I don't trust him, but how can anybody who not only appreciates classical music, but has it as a job composing it, say he never listened to Holst????

"Hi I'm a racecar driver. What's a Ferrari?"

It's not that I don't trust him, but I just don't trust him.

[Hitch 57]

Hitch Holst's beautiful "Jupiter" section. Enough of this already. I'm getting a diet coke.

[Jilal 569]

I have been listening to Gladiator lately, and i noticed this too. It's almost identical, especially the fight scenes.

[crocodile 7,984]

Strange, I see where it's all coming from, but, from what I remember, Zimmer intentionally referenced Holst. Didn't he even thank him in the liner notes or something? Having said all that, I find it still somewhat superficial.

Karol

[Jilal 569]

Yes, i mean, they can't sue him! Holst is already dead more than 70 years. Or isn't he?

Ah, i see now, at the time he wasn't.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He was sued and lost, if I remember correctly. He intentionally used it, and even credited him, but didn't ask for permission regardless.

[King Mark 3,626]

Another clear cut example of why copyright should not extend to 70 years

[indy4 155]

Wow, I thought The Planets was in the public domain already. Very interesting. I think Zimmer's is probably the most blatant rip of The Planets that I've heard, but I must say I'm a little surprised this hasn't happened more often, with other clear cases of plagiarism.

[GoodMusician 56]

I dunno, I hear a pretty blatant usage in Deep Space 9 when the federation goes to war with the Dominion ships

[00:20]

[Jilal 569]

That's some of the worst CGI i've ever seen.

My ps2 copy of Ratchet and Clank 3 has better graphics.

Aside from that, yes, the music is pretty much obviously influenced by The Bringer of War.

1:36 clearly Mars was used as a temp track here. But John Williams uses it the right way.

It's used everywhere!

0:56

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Alexander, stop talking out of your ass please.

it actually looks great

[Sandor 796]

Alexander, stop talking out of your ass please.

it actually looks great

Indeed..!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Especially considering this was done in 1998 for television.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,504]

About time, too. What took them so long? I hope they whup his ass.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This thread is very old Richard

[Naïve Old Fart 9,504]

In that case, I hope they whupped his ass!

[Jilal 569]

As a side note, he also used Mars in Pirates of the Caribbean. If you have the "Pirates, Day One, 4:56 AM" demo (the 5 minute version), you can hear it at 1:42.

You can also hear it in the official 3 minute version, but it's less obvious.

[BTR1701 59]

What's funny is that my high school used the music from Jupiter's slow, lyrical section as its alma mater (way back in 1984-1986) and it had been that way for many years before I got there.

Good thing the Holst Foundation never knew about us!

[Jilal 569]

I like that slow section. It always reminds me of the Dreamworks logo music (not Williams' music for it).

Or the Shire theme from LOTR. I'm not a LOTR expert, so i don't know if i correctly name it. It's at the beginning of track 2 The Shire, so i assume it's the Shire theme.

[Salacius 7]

.

[filmmusic 1,823]

I still can't wait for somebody to sue the guy for ruining the entire film music industry...

Hehe.. that was hilarious!

well, in any case, the one doing a job isn't to be blamed, but the one who hires him to do the job!

I believe if a new system was established where film directors and film producers went on an audition, and a musical background was required, the problem of the film music industry would be instantly solved!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I don't really care about Zimmer, but I never liked how all those ships in the DS9 battle were flying so close to each other. It seems illogical, especially when shit instantly hits the fan and they all suddenly have to maneuver. I could see one ship causing a domino effect of destruction across the whole fleet when the pilot freaks as one of those little ships pulls a daredevil stunt in front of them.

[Salacius 7]

.

[filmmusic 1,823]

Is there any Carl Orff foundation?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Intentional, considering True Romance is more or less the same story as Malick's Badlands, where the Orff piece is used in the same manner.