Why can't other composers write like JW?

[tony69 0]

Exactly!

Shore's orchestrations are indeed weak, and don't work at all live. They sound muddy, and the brass writing is both clumsy and ineffective, and the horn writing is consistently very high and cumbersome, not to say boring. The woodwind writing is similarly boring, and string players in general LOATH the music,- it is even worse string writing than Bruckner! (Who can write beautiful music, but writes as if the orchestra was an organ)

From a strict orchestrational point of view, there is every reason to claim that Shore is a relatively poor orchestrator. Then again, he hasn't had all that much experience writing for orchestra, and his classical training and knowledge wasn't the most thorough and isn't the best...

i agree 100%. many composers i know criticise shore's orchestration skills. it's very static , which is just terrible skill.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I think the more you study old school classical music the less imaginative you become.

You have all the teachers you need on the shelves at the old library.

The beginning and end of your post openly contradict each other

[Ollie 1,059]

Exactly!

Shore's orchestrations are indeed weak, and don't work at all live. They sound muddy, and the brass writing is both clumsy and ineffective, and the horn writing is consistently very high and cumbersome, not to say boring. The woodwind writing is similarly boring, and string players in general LOATH the music,- it is even worse string writing than Bruckner! (Who can write beautiful music, but writes as if the orchestra was an organ)

From a strict orchestrational point of view, there is every reason to claim that Shore is a relatively poor orchestrator. Then again, he hasn't had all that much experience writing for orchestra, and his classical training and knowledge wasn't the most thorough and isn't the best...

i agree 100%. many composers i know criticise shore's orchestration skills. it's very static , which is just terrible skill.

And I'm sure this news just destroys Howard Shore, especially when he looks up and sees all his awards and acclaim he's received.

The poor guy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There is nothing worse then recieving critisism from peers who haven't had the brilliant career, the awards, the aclaim, and the money that you have.

Mr Shore must be crying himself to sleep every night because tony69's nameless nobody's don't like him.

And yes, this is sarcastic...

[fommes 153]

Er... I'd say he's one of the more original orchestrators around... His scores are orchestration, eg. eXistenZ, Crash, etc.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ignore them, Lotman.

They have been taught that music has to be composed and constructed a certain way. Their training has sullied their imagination.

They got some musical knowledge, but their souls are dead.

Poor bastards.

[tony69 0]

Ignore them, Lotman.

They have been taught that music has to be composed and constructed a certain way. Their training has sullied their imagination.

They got some musical knowledge, but their souls are dead.

Poor bastards.

I think everyone's opinions deserved to be heard rather than shunned as being 'dead souls' devoid of 'musical knowledge.' I hate the guidelines in classical music. of course, they are guidelines, not rules, and can be broken. The thing is many guidelines have a reason for being. Sometimes they are psychological as in the sonata form, being a further development of simple ABA form. Other times, aesthetics as in the preference of consonances during the classical period. In terms of orchestrations, usually the rules are due to FUNCTIONAL reasons.

example. One thing we learn often is do not double the oboe and the clarinet in a lower register because the oboe's nasal quality will drown out the clarinet, making it almost inaudible. (however in a middle register it works, as schubert does in his symphony) Or NEVER write below F#3 for trumpets, because they simple CANNOT play it. or do not write ridiculously quite parts for the trombone, because they have to slide their arms and they cannot be as accurate or agile due to that reason.

In terms of shore's writing, marcus mentioned his muddy brass writing. beginning orchestrators are taught that if they want a clear sound, they must not use low brass chords. the reason is because of the overtone series. If we play a C1, then we also hear C2,G2,C3,E3,G3,Bb3, C4, etc. If we put our chords too close in the lower bass clef, then the upper harmonics will clash more creating a muddier sound. of course, when a muddy sound is desired, by all means do that. but shore does it even in the uplifting sections, something williams would never do (look at how well he spaces out his brass).

Pi and Luke skywalker also mentioned his lack of orchestral variation. how he uses the exact same voicings etc. i have to agree that in the early movies, this seemed to be the case. The reason we desire orchestral variation is because it stimulates the ears, makes it more intersting. Also, his string writing has been criticised by some string players i know that played his LOTR symphony. They say his writing is extremely static. then suddenly they have this glow and say john williams on the other hand has more dynamic parts. again, the functionality of dynamic parts is for more interest and so the player is actually interested in playing the music.

I must say, I do admire some of shore's orchestral textures. In particular, i admire his Cronenberg style. He has worked with that style so much that he knows what works and what doesnt. On the other hand, name another action-adventure score before LOTR by shore. There's very few. I honestly think that's why his orchestral writing for LOTR is limited, but his cronenberg stuff is great. I think this statement can be affirmed by noticing that the LOTR orchestral writing greatly improved through all three movies as someone else pointed.

i hope this is good discussion, and would like to hear other people's opinions as well.

[robthehand 3]

I like his Lord of the Rings scores a lot, but I agree that it's his writing for the Cronenberg films that makes him (or should have made him) an A-list composer.

[skyy38 21]

Thanks for the comment red rabbit!

Star Wars in general is kind of an obsession for me and when AFI declared the soundtrack to be the greatest,I just couldn't believe it because I thought Gone With The Wind was a lock.To anyone who is even remotely serious about soundtrack work and/or orchestration I always tell them to get a copy of A New Hope.I believe it is just that indespensible.

I thought Howard Shore did an excellent job on Se7en.

[Red 75]

Thanks for the comment red rabbit!  

Star Wars in general is kind of an obsession for me and when AFI declared the soundtrack to be the greatest,I just couldn't believe it because I thought Gone With The Wind was a lock.To anyone who is even remotely serious about soundtrack work and/or orchestration I always tell them to get a copy of A New Hope.I believe it is just that indespensible.

I thought Howard Shore did an excellent job on Se7en.

Your welcome Sky! The Battle of Yavin is one of the best action cues I have ever heard. I'm also a big fan of anything Star Wars.

[King Mark 3,626]

The score to Star Wars is overrated.ESB,RotJ,TPM and RotS are better than Star Wars.

K.M.

[Red 75]

Actually, ROTJ is my favorite of the OT followed by ESB. I also really like TPM.

[skyy38 21]

No,not overrated,just *great*