Why are Basil Pouledouris recordings so...bad?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

So I'm having a Pouledouris day...and listening to....

Conan The Barbarian, Farewell to the King, The Hunt for Red October, Les Miserables, Flesh + Blood....

And while his music is great, and the performances as well...the recordings...leave....MUCH to be desired, in comparison to the albums released at the same time, even before them.

Anyone know what plague has infested the poor guy? I thought maybe the mixer, but some of the scores are by different mixers. I mean...I'm beginning to think bad recording equipment.

*sigh* The gargantuan brass section in Conan would sound so nice....if recorded better.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Conan is poorly recorded, but not very well performed either. Red October is one of those odd DAD jobs (digital recording which was at some point converted back to analogue for some reason) and therefore has some noticeable hiss. Flesh + Blood is very hissy, but sounds great otherwise. I don't remember problems with Miserables, and it's years since I've listened to Farewell I'm afraid.

And don't forget Starship Troopers - an HDCD with absolutely stunning sound.

Powder (Jerry Goldsmith)

[Trent B 337]

And don't forget Starship Troopers - an HDCD with absolutely stunning sound.

Indeed.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Conan is poorly recorded, but it has a huge amount od mood and asmosphere that I love. The origibal album tracks from Flesh + Blood sound fine, it's just the extra cues on the newver release that sound hissy.

Robocop is another fine sounding score.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I somehow dig the crappy sound of Conan in its context.

[fommes 153]

Robocop is another fine sounding score.

Yes!

Thought this deserved a resounding yes. Anyhow.

You could listen to the boot of Hunt for Red October too. Puts the album in a different light concerning sound quality

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

One could easily make a sister thread:

Why are John Williams recordings so...bad? (Dracula, Minority Report, A.I. etc...etc...)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

they are only bad is you are an audiophile,

otherwise they sound ok to most of us.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There are bad to me, and I'm far to deaf to be an audiophile.

Your logic escapes me, Joe.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I just don't really notice these things.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In that, I guess I envy you.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I just don't really notice these things.

That's exactly what's wrong with A.I..

[ymenard 54]

I guess his recordings are a little bad compared to stuff at the same era, but indeed they are "different" in sound. I guess his microphone placement is very specific and unusual. He probably likes it that way, perhaps he find the way it sound in the movie mix to be better... ?

[artyjeffrey 20]

One could easily make a sister thread:

Why are John Williams recordings so...bad? (Dracula, Minority Report, A.I. etc...etc...)

In particular, why oh why is Superman The Movie so muffled and hissy? I've always wondered this, especially when put into chronological context with his other scores.... I mean, he did The Fury at almost the same time and had just recorded Star Wars, etc.... Does anyone know why the sound is so awful for Supes?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I havent heard Fury...but I thought the Rhino 2CD was quite fine...

[ymenard 54]

Perhaps they put some different mic placements for Supermans knowing how much brass there was in the score... no? I mean the Fury is more string-based. Star Wars has brass but not as present as Supes...

I guess it's like the color TV feeds of say, 1975 compared to a black&white TV feed from 1965. The black&white TV feed is a hundred times better in details. Maybe the recording hardware changed between and they didn't adapt as quickly.

[Ollie 1,059]

The only Poledouris score that I really notice the poor sound on is Conan. But I take into consideration the source and technology avilable at that time.

It still sounds fine to me. A good sound system and good speakers can overcome some sound problems.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Couldn't it also expose more problems?

[Ollie 1,059]

Possibly, I just know that certain glitches on CDs such as The Edge, Total Recall Deluxe Edition, The Last Castle, and Jaws 25th Annivesary are not noticable on my system. Now if I put on my headsets I'll hear them.

ROTJ doesn't sound that bad on my system, Die Hard, A.I., Dracula to name a few don't sound as poor as they actually do.

Now most of the mono recordings are going to sound pretty much the same and no matter what I try I can't get On Dangerous Ground to sound any better.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Couldn't it also expose more problems?

I thought that's what it did with Conan. The brass has more audible air, but overall the recording also sounds much harsher in comparison to other discs.

[adamtron 0]

In a perfect world (or my dream world) all soundtracks would be recorded with the binaural dummy head. With this process, the left and right channels are kept separate and recorded on an artificial or dummy head. The listener is placed exactly where the performance or sound originated, with sounds localized in a 360-degree sphere. The live ambience of the hall in which a musical performance takes place is preserved more precisely. If some of you reading this have never listened to a binaural recording, I urge you to listen to "Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra; Saint-Saens: Symphony No3" recorded by the Pasadena Symphony. The recording can be found at Amazon.com at this link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00003Q02...7222511?ie=UTF8

The first time I heard it, I was blown away. The low bass notes on the organ sound like a jet engine or something- I can't describe it in words. It really does sound like you are sitting in the best seat in a concert call. I had my friends listen to it and they were startled by it too. I wish there were more recordings like this, but sadly, most people don't even know about the technology or they resist using it because it's something different. I keep hoping one day they will record a "Best Of John Williams" CD with this technology. You can read more about this technology here:

http://www.binaural.com/

[ymenard 54]

I don't see why being spotted binauraly where the conductor is during a recording, is the best way to listen to classical music. It's not like anybody decided that it's the only position possible.

[adamtron 0]

I don't see why being spotted binauraly where the conductor is during a recording, is the best way to listen to classical music.  It's not like anybody decided that it's the only position possible.

The dummy head is usually placed in the best seat in the concert hall and not where the conductor is standing. I think maybe you misunderstood that part.

Another reviewer, (that listened to the recording I spoke of) said it best "You are now hearing the orchestra AS it sounded EXACTLY as it was played. Soft parts are soft- loud parts are loud. What this means is that you will hear the composer's music AS it was meant to be heard- and all the fine details between instruments and their accurate positions and dynamics. The result brings the music alive as the composer intended, and not how some audio tech decides it should sound like. -Michael John"

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I don't see why being spotted binauraly where the conductor is during a recording, is the best way to listen to classical music.  It's not like anybody decided that it's the only position possible.

The dummy head is usually placed in the best seat in the concert hall and not where the conductor is standing. I think maybe you misunderstood that part.

Another reviewer, (that listened to the recording I spoke of) said it best "You are now hearing the orchestra AS it sounded EXACTLY as it was played. Soft parts are soft- loud parts are loud. What this means is that you will hear the composer's music AS it was meant to be heard- and all the fine details between instruments and their accurate positions and dynamics. The result brings the music alive as the composer intended, and not how some audio tech decides it should sound like. -Michael John"

But not every piece of music sounds good live does it?

[adamtron 0]

Sorry BurgaFlippin Man, but I fail to see any logic in your argument "But not every piece of music sounds good live does it?" A variation on that could be "But not every piece of music sounds good recorded by individual microphones and then mixed by an audio tech does it?" Not sure the relevancy.

I was a little skeptical myself before, so I can understand a couple skeptics here. But after I heard my first binaural recording, ""Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra; Saint-Saens: Symphony No3" recorded by the Pasadena Symphony I was amazed by the outstanding quality. Shocked by it, actually. I'm just sharing my experience so that others not familiar with the technology may learn about it and possibly experience the same joy as I did. I do think if you are a serious audiophile, you should have at least one binaural recording in your collection and then you can hear and judge for yourself.

[Morlock 11]

Conan is poorly recorded, but it has a huge amount od mood and asmosphere that I love.

Indeed, I love the Conan album. So raw and unrefined. So.....Barbarian sounding.

Morlock- who doesn't think every score needs to sound crisp and be flawless. The Wind and The Lion is another example of a theoretically 'imperfect' recording that is absolutely perfect sounding.

[AI 0]

I think Conan the Barbarian was deliberately recorded raw and primitive sounding.

[A24 4,331]

I think Conan the Barbarian was deliberately recorded raw and primitive sounding.

Perhaps they used a 12-bit recorder?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Sorry BurgaFlippin Man, but I fail to see any logic in your argument "But not every piece of music sounds good live does it?"  A variation on that could be "But not every piece of music sounds good recorded by individual microphones and then mixed by an audio tech does it?"  Not sure the relevancy.  

I'm no audiophile, but for example I think someone played a lot with the mix on the Rohan theme statements in the LOTR scores, especially with when it has that fiddle-y kind of instrument (whats it called again?). I personally dont mind it much, but wonder how it would sound live, whether it would stand out that much. But yea, I guess its more of an exception rather than a rule.

[Lurker 5]

Film scores are better recorded multitrack so that the important parts of the music can cut through the dialogue and effects. Having a 2 channel recording would remove all of that felxibility.

Neil

[A24 4,331]

The problem with many movies today is that there's too much music during the dialogue.

[King Mark 3,631]

Except the SW prequels...

K.M.

[Lurker 5]

The problem with many movies today is that there's too much music...

That's all you really needed to say.

Neil

[ymenard 54]

The dummy head is usually placed in the best seat in the concert hall and not where the conductor is standing.  I think maybe you misunderstood that part.

Ok then I don't see how being placed in the best seat of a concert hall gives you the absolute in how you listen to a classical orchestra playing

There are "alternatives" to everything...

(but indeed binaural can be a very nice experience)

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I've never heard a binaural recording (to my knowledge). I'm just wondering how they set up the concert hall... an orchestra playing in an empty often doesn't sound too good. I've been to rehearsals where the conductor asked the (small) audience to move to different seats because he wanted to test the sound.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Binaural is too limiting...as it only works with headphones.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Anyway such a recording device would be useless for film score recordings. Since they are not ment to sound like they were recorded in a concert hall. Why do you think so many composers, starting with Herrmann back in the 40's use close miking and overdubbs?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

And quite frankly, surround sound recordings such as Complete LOTR and many Horner DTS recordings, sound eons better than any binaural recording I've heard.

And the recording methods work with film scores, so it's the way to go.

We just need to convince them to release more surround albums.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Why do you think so many composers, starting with Herrmann back in the 40's use close miking and overdubbs?

They used overdubs earlier than that, even in Steiner's King Kong. The reason was the limited size of the orchestra.

And at least some scores attempt to sound like orchestral live performances. The early Star Wars scores do, for example (in the film, not on the dry-sounding CDs).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And at least some scores attempt to sound like orchestral live performances. The early Star Wars scores do, for example (in the film, not on the dry-sounding CDs).

You make that sound like it's a good thing.

Overdubbing and close miking also gives a creative composer the chance to combine instruments that you usually can't combine for a concert performance because one would drown the other out.

[King Mark 3,631]

Maybe it's why I don't really like conan the Barbarian

K.M.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

And at least some scores attempt to sound like orchestral live performances. The early Star Wars scores do, for example (in the film, not on the dry-sounding CDs).

You make that sound like it's a good thing.

You make that sound like it's a bad thing.

Overdubbing and close miking also gives a creative composer the chance to combine instruments that you usually can't combine for a concert performance because one would drown the other out.

You mean they give cluesless composers the chance to "orchestrate" their works without having to think about what actually works and makes sense.

FOTR:CR

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marian, I think we are not understanding each other, here's an excerpt from composer Howards Goodalls program aptly named Howard Goodall's 20th Century Greats, that devoted an episode to Herrmann stating him one of the most underrated composers of the last century.

Hollywood composers of the 1930's led by Max Steiner and Erich Korngold inported lock, stock and barrel the orchestral sound of Vienna into their film scores, which was hardly surprising since both of them were fron Vienna. The century old lay-out of instruments and the way the voices blended together were reproduced. But Herrmann realised that for film, which was a one-off this was a nonsense.

For a start, thanks to close-miking in the sound studio, he could bring together instruments that could not possibly be heard together in the concert hall. Take for example the eerily quiet base flute, and the booming kettle drums. Now in the concert hall the kettle drums would obliterate the poor old base flute if played simultaniously, but Herrmann found that by putting the microphone close to the base flute and turning it down on the timpani, he could have them both together.

This is basically my point. Creative film composers (of which Herrmann was certainly one) can use these techniques to create unusual combinations and unusual sounds that cannot possibly be effective when performed by an orchestra in a concert hall.

Jerry Goldsmith's highly stylised use of synth in many of his scores is another example.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

What does that have to do with overdubbing? Or Star Wars, for that matter?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I made no point about Star wars, but generally my point is that it not not necesarry for music composed for a film to be written or recorded like music suitable for concert hall, since only a fraction of film music ever get a performance of any kind in front of an audience.

Overdubbing is just another trick in the book, like recording solo instruments/voices or an entire choir seperatly (something Williams has done).

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

And something i'm not particularly fond of, because I can't help but imagine that the performance might be better as a whole (what would get you as a performer more in the right spirit, performing the whole piece or just one third of it?). And I never said a concert hall sound is ideal for all types of film music. Plus there are different types of concert halls (the Vienna State Opera sounds much more like a close-miked recording than like the Musikverein).

Nevertheless, I believe that no matter if your music is performed live, writing something without *caring* for whether it is actually playable that way is the easy way out.

[robthehand 3]

I don't quite follow that... surely music that's not intended to be performed in concert doesn't have to be written & recorded as if it was? Or have I misunderstood something here...? :?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I believe that most music, if possible, should be recorded "live". Of course, that's not true for all compositions. But if you write for an orchestra, I don't see why you should record it in several parts, as long as you can just as well record it as a whole. I expect the performers give their best when they can actually perform in the whole thing.

This is not true for things like Mona Lisa Overdrive. But even Mike Oldfield, after recording Tubular Bells all on his own, did live performances of the two sequels.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm far from an expert, but it's it true that members in an orchestra can't actually hear all the instruments being played? (I doubt anyone sitting next to the timpani can hear the clarinet). So when for instance a choir is performing a piece seperatly from the orchestra, wearing headphones with the pre-recorded orchestral piece playing they can actually hear more details then when they are sitting in the back of the hall were all the noisy drum stuff is.

Ultimatly I think it boils down to pure professionalism.

[robthehand 3]

I believe that most music, if possible, should be recorded "live". Of course, that's not true for all compositions. But if you write for an orchestra, I don't see why you should record it in several parts, as long as you can just as well record it as a whole. I expect the performers give their best when they can actually perform in the whole thing.

But if the sound you require (in the case of film music) can't be recorded live, then overdubbing is acceptable, is that what you're saying?