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JW Scores Theoretical Analysis Thread


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Apologies to the mods if something like this already exists. As I watch the back and forth between those of us that like to analyze Williams' techniques, chord progressions, etc., and those who want to enjoy his music for how it sounds and not ruin it with a lot of overanalyzing, it occurred to me it might be helpful to have a thread where we do precisely that kind of overanalyzing, and those who prefer not to do so can avoid it.

I'll start with this. Recently someone mentioned JW's use of the major triad with diminished 6th for a "spacey" sound (as used at the end of the Star Wars overture, for instance). I've since observed how often this is used (also by Horner in the Star Trek scores).

Another observation is that made by others that the Imperial March combination (tonic minor, diminished sixth minor) is also frequently used (i.e. the "evil" theme in ET).

What other favorite chords or progressions have you observed?

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This is a promising thread- a minor thing that I have noticed is his use of I to some inversion of V/V, then to the V chord, used most notably in the Flying Theme from E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial and 'The Mission' for NBC News. I sometimes refer to this as the "lift" or "flight" motive. I believe it is also used in Hook.

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From Williams jazz background, presumably comes a lack of key signatures in many of his Signature Edition pieces. The key might change often in a piece, so many composers who write freely often bypass the use of a key signature. I've taken up that practice in my own composing, unless I'm writing in a very formal style.

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I have noticed the lack of key signatures as well, and always wondered if it did have something to do with his jazz background. I also usually leave them off with orchestral works or atonal chamber/solo music that changes keys rapidly, or has no tonal center.

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Even though his music is often tonic, the number of key changes would perhaps only work to give the musician a false sense of security. Writing an accidental on each note keeps them on their toes and lets them take nothing for granted.

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It is a general rule that film composers do not use key sigs because of frequent modulations and modded scales. None on the score, non on the parts.

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I'll start with this.  Recently someone mentioned JW's use of the major triad with diminished 6th for a "spacey" sound (as used at the end of the Star Wars overture, for instance).

Hey that was me.

I'll add another. JW likes to harmonize diatonic melodies with completely non-diatonic major 7th chords.

Ex 1: Superman overture, key of C major, 2nd melody cadences with an F to an E. Rather than use the logical IV - I progression, JW harmonizes the F with a rich sounding bII major 7 chord (Dbmaj7), followed by the I major 7 (Cmaj7). These parallel major 7ths are absolutely a JW exclusive.

Ex 2: Star Wars overture, key of Bb major. 2nd melody cadences with F to a C. Rather than use a logical V chord (F major chord) to cover both these two notes, he harmonizes the F melody note with a completely foreign Dbmaj7 chord and THEN the F major chord for that C melody note. Again, totally 100% a JW signature technique.

I hope this makes sense. So hard to put music theory in words.

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The major triad/minor 6th effect has often been used to represent alien environments or to give a feeling of unease and spectacle. If you take away the 5th you are left with an augmented triad, which has no obvious sense of tonic or root. This lack of a root makes the listener feel slightly uneasy, a long way from home. Vaughan Williams uses the same effect in movement one of his Sinfonia Antarctica (composed out of his original score for Scott of the Antarctic). Here the disorienting effect of the major triad/minor 6th (augmented triad implied) makes the listener feel he is in a world completely alien to him, hostile and yet awe-inspiring.

James-also looking forward to this thread developing! Theory geeks of the world unite!

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It is a general rule that film composers do not use key sigs because of frequent modulations and modded scales. None on the score, non on the parts.

Wow-really?

You learn something new everyday!

This is gonna be a cool thread!

:P

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This is a promising thread, and I hope it'll survive longer than its predecessors...

Adding to Eric's remarks on non-diatonic maj7th chords, I would say that Williams also has a whole host of "cadential sonorities",-usually mixed quartal, triadic and secundal structures, and all functioning as "generalized" dominants.

In the key of C, some of these could be (spelled from bottom to top) : Db-Gb-Ab-C (or Gbsus#11, if you will),D-Eb-Ab-Cb (Abminaddb5), Bb-Eb-Ab-Cb-D (variation of the previous).

Williams tends to stack quartal structures on triadic fundaments: Eb-Ab-Cb-E-A-D-G (just one example of Williams' expanded tonal palette).

I will argue that Williams' tonal universe is generally chromatic, not diatonic or modal, meaning I don't think he thinks in terms of establishing a key with any kind of permanence. His diatonic writing is usually pan-diatonic.

Also, observe the general absence of dominants!! In a major context, Williams' pivotal harmony (substituting a traditional dominant) is more frequently a combination of I,IV and V without thirds (usually), or suspended chords, if you like.

In the key of C, such sonorities could be C-D-G(-B), C-F-G,C-D-F-G,C-F-G-B. Again, note the use of mixed structures!

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Great stuff as usual Marcus.

I forgot to mention (going back to major 7th chords) how JW is not afraid to voice a major 7th with the root on top. This is usually a no-no in voicing due to the melody note clashing with a note one half step below it, but thanks to perfect orchestration and balance, he makes it work perfectly.

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Thank you Eric!

Also: Williams will sometimes voice maj7th chords such as these by moving the seventh degree down an octave, so in the key of C, you'd have B-E-G-C, thus avoiding the issue of clashing altogether.

Take care, Eric, and everyone!

Marcus

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gkgyver, I'm so sorry, I completely forgot about your earlier post... I'm glad you've been able to decipher the terminology, though. 8O

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The three things which make williams great in MO

-Themetic writing: including themes and secondary supporting motifs, lines and harmony voicings

-Settings: how he musically sets these themes, secondary counterpoint through orchestration contrast or agreement, moving lines against static lines etc...

-Picture/Music agreement: cannot be taught, instinctual

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I do agree to a certain extent that there are things concerning audiovisual alignment and effect that have to do with pure instinct, but as these instincts are part of our nature and psyche, we can elect be cognizant of such effects, and we can study them and try to understand our own reactions to them. It boils down to whether or not we believe music is a language that has certain universal codes (not only cultural).

I personally feel strongly that music has connotational specificity and universality at a primal level, and I think there are observations to be made on "truthfulness" in how music relates to drama, and to visuals and psychology, or rather, how music informs and is informed by reality.

Generally, we must look for simple phenomena and qualities, such as "hard","soft","high","low","big","small"...

Williams is VERY conscious (and outspokenly so) of this in constructing his themes and designing his

textures.

Some pertinent questions:

- What is it about ESB's "The Asteroid Field" that captures the feel and texture of an asteroid field?

- What is it about PoA's "Buckbeak's Flight" that captures flight, initial fear, and soaring excitement?

- What is it about MoaG's "Becoming a Geisha" that gives us a specific image of the world of the geisha, and not simply a sense of "orientalism"?

I have some observations and possible answers to these questions, but I would like to hear from others first.

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- What is it about ESB's "The Asteroid Field" that captures the feel and texture of an asteroid field?

The music is in a constant state of modulation, creating a sense of panic and restlessness. This builds up tension and excitement in the listener. Also, the keys all distantly related (not closely like dominant, predominant, submediant etc, but rather lots of tritone modulations and chromatic thirds) creating a greater sense of bewilderment and disorientation in the listener. Finally the theme itself is so bold and strong that it immediately suggests power and drama.

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Some pertinent questions:

- What is it about ESB's "The Asteroid Field" that captures the feel and texture of an asteroid field?

dont have the score in front of me

Marcato - those rocks will kill your ship!,

Movement of rocks -ostinato in bones, vas,

Orchestration of Rocks, xylo, pizz, staccato, triangle, mutes, pno etc, high (picc, trump, ww) and low ranges (bass, trmb),gran cassa

Danger - Tempo , it is an urgent tempo

Excitement of dodging them - the Trumpet and string fanfare in the middle "watch out that one was close, oh we dodged it again" --> Moduation = that was even closer

Chase element - Fast unision string trem passages with rests

it all relates to what i said about his settings, which i guess can also mean textures

STOP distracting me everyone! back to work! i have deadlines.

pi- who wonders if he should take out his eth. cable when he is working

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gkgyver, I'm so sorry, I completely forgot about your earlier post... I'm glad you've been able to decipher the terminology, though.

Meanwhile I already tried it on my keyboard and found out you're right about that alien sound!

- What is it about PoA's "Buckbeak's Flight" that captures flight, initial fear, and soaring excitement?

Well, for one, that incredible timpani work starts the cue with a tempo and energy that can't be misunderstood.

The music is relentless in its rhythm, it never stops; but when it takes a short break, that's very conscious and only heightens the drama (for those owning the piano sheet music, look at the second half of page 2). And during the entire piece the music doesn't come to a satisfying conclusion until the very end. It just keeps building and building with the rolling string motiv descending and suddenly ascending with one of Williams' beloved octave leaps.

Plus, Williams uses wide or bigger intervals (once again, I lack the English term) in the violins, which conveys that airy feeling of openness and grandeur.

I think Buckbeak's Flight is one of John Williams' tightest and hair- raising pieces.

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Trivia question:

What is very unusual and interesting about the main motif you hear throughout JW's NBC News Theme? It has to do with the major scale.

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I want to discuss about the analyze Williams' techniques, chord progressions, etc for Smee's plan and other themes from Hook because he makes a good variation of the themes throughout the score.

First scene in hook when Presenting The Hook theme was played was the use of the bass vocal choir with the snare drum and the brass section when that lady was reading the story to peter who completely fogotten about who he was when he was litttle. However im not that good at aural skills so bare in mind that i might ask some dumb question espcially asking if he use the same key everytime he play smee plan in different variation of it throughout the score.

second scene which is the Presenting The Hook scene which is one of the best variations of smee plan

third scene is when Hook discuss to smee about what should they do with peter pan's two childrens while the waiting for next 3 days when the ultimate war

fourth scene main smee theme variation comes in at track 10 on the original soundtrack which where smee tells hook about his plan.

fifth scene is where Hook get two children a lecture about why their dad is not a good daddy...another variation of smee plan plays in this scene...and by the way in this scene isn't where he plays something simliar in harry potter I it might be the Cornish Pixies but I telling there something play in that scene that exactly sound similar in one of the scene in harry potter.

sixth scene which i think it one the best variation of smee plans ever in the score which is the The Museum. It sounded like he decided make smee plan as some comedy feel to it or something.

seven/eight scene which it play a couple times in Ultimate War cue which you hear on track 16 on the original soundttrack.

Yeah well different variations of it and each of them i think is a different key to match within the score in each scene.

There are very good variations of Hooks theme which is the most main obvious theme but I don't have the time to write it at moment....

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I don't want to kill this thread, but I will say this;

Williams mind works in a freewheeling way. He writes his music, then makes it fit within the boundaries of notation. His knowledge is so spectacular that he is able to do this in an extremely accurate way. ie what you hear is what he intended.

You can't break down his music into theory very well. It's too complex. Williams seldom even uses a single chord progression, it's always skewed in some way, with that brilliant touch.

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Trivia question:

What is very unusual and interesting about the main motif you hear throughout JW's NBC News Theme? It has to do with the major scale.

Do you mean the raised fourth, resulting in a lydian mode?

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I don't want to kill this thread, but I will say this;  

Williams mind works in a freewheeling way. He writes his music, then makes it fit within the boundaries of notation. His knowledge is so spectacular that he is able to do this in an extremely accurate way. ie what you hear is what he intended.

You can't break down his music into theory very well. It's too complex. Williams seldom even uses a single chord progression, it's always skewed in some way, with that brilliant touch.

All probably true, but why ruin the fun of trying? ;)

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Trivia question:

What is very unusual and interesting about the main motif you hear throughout JW's NBC News Theme? It has to do with the major scale.

Do you mean the raised fourth, resulting in a lydian mode?

Nope, if you're talking modes, this particular motif is 100% Ionian (and that is another hint).

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Trivia question:

What is very unusual and interesting about the main motif you hear throughout JW's NBC News Theme? It has to do with the major scale.

Well for one thing I believe it uses every pitch in the scale.

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Not to be picky, but a Neapolitan sixth is actually a flat II chord, not a flat VI (although of course the Neapolitan triad contains the flattened sixth degree within it). And also, what exactly do you mean by "tritone substitution"??

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Trivia question:

What is very unusual and interesting about the main motif you hear throughout JW's NBC News Theme? It has to do with the major scale.

Well for one thing I believe it uses every pitch in the scale.

Nice job!

And it uses all 8 tones without repeating any (if you begin after the quick pickup note). It's in D flat, but I will transpose to C for simplicity purposes:

E D F A high-C B G low-C

I am pretty certain JW wasn't trying to use any serial techniques for this one, but we can still call this "eight-tone" technique. :wave:

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First scene in hook when Presenting The Hook theme was played was the use of the bass vocal choir with the snare drum and the brass section when that lady was reading the story to peter who completely fogotten about who he was when he was litttle. However im not that good at aural skills so bare in mind that i might ask some dumb question espcially asking if he use the same key everytime he play smee plan in different variation of it throughout the score.  

That isn't the PTH theme. It is the pirate theme which happens to appear in PTH. The PTH theme is called Hook's main theme or Smee's Plan.

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Not to be picky, but a Neapolitan sixth is actually a flat II chord, not a flat VI (although of course the Neapolitan triad contains the flattened sixth degree within it). And also, what exactly do you mean by "tritone substitution"??

You are correct, sir. My fault, I was thinking about one of the responces above. The Neapolitan sixth is named such because the majority of the time it is used it is in first inversion, and is a chromatic neighbor tone used to prolong the tonic. It is based in the minor mode just like the diminshed 7 (II) of a minor scale.

Tritone substitution is the substituion of the dominant chord by a chord located a tritone away. I.E: using C major, instead of going to a G7 chord (dominant of C), you go to a Db7 chord because both G7 AND Db7 share the same tritone, F and B (or Cb when using Db7), then resolvong down by a half-step.

Don't get this mixed up with the Neapolitan 6th which is based also on flat 2 of the scale, but resolves to the dominant. Tritone Substituion resolved down a half-step to tonic. Tritone substitution is a dominant function whereas neapolitan sixth is a chromatic alteration.

Claer? :wave:

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Wonderful analysis of "The Asteroid Field" and "Buckbeaks Flight", pi, pixie twinkle and gkgyver! I have nothing to add, except that I utterly and completely concur! And your observations prove that we can all share a general connotational understanding of audio-visual alignment, which means that music's extra-musical language is knowable, to some extent.

Bravo, all of you!

I did a very thourough analysis of "Buckbeak's Flight" a while back, describing its extra-musical or connotational qualities in great detail, and I'll try to post it later.

Best to all of you,

Marcus

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Yes, very clear, it was just that you hadn't initially specified which chord you were replacing with your tritone! However, I don't believe you're quite correct when you say that a Neapolitan chord has to resolve to the dominant, although of course it usually does (and would almost certainly do so in music of the Classical period such as Mozart and even Beethoven). Even if it resolves straight to the tonic, it's still Neapolitan by virtue of its flattened supertonic! Therefore there's no inherent difference between the Neapolitan sixth and your "tritone substitution", aside from the addition of a seventh to the latter (as well as more options when it comes to the inversion). Also, if the Db VII chord in your example resolves outwards by step to C major, then really it's more of an augmented sixth chord than a dominant seventh, but now maybe I really am being too pedantic... :wave:

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Do you have any examples of this? I messed around with it at the keyboard but it didn't ring any bells. Could be my morning ear though. Maybe I just need more coffee. :(

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I don't want to kill this thread, but I will say this;  

Williams mind works in a freewheeling way. He writes his music, then makes it fit within the boundaries of notation. His knowledge is so spectacular that he is able to do this in an extremely accurate way. ie what you hear is what he intended.

You can't break down his music into theory very well. It's too complex. Williams seldom even uses a single chord progression, it's always skewed in some way, with that brilliant touch.

I disgree. Just because Williams' music doesn't always conform to 18th century classical structures and elementary freshman harmonic progressions doesn't mean it cannot be analysed. Trust me, music far more complex than that of John Williams is analysed every day by composers, theorists, and performers alike. We won't always find I-IV-V-I, but then you rarely find that in most "classical" music since 1870 anyway. Williams music can be analysed using extended harmonic techniques (chromatic third relationships and other distantly related tonal areas). Music theory and music composition go hand in hand. Theory is simply the art of discovering why a certain piece of music sounds the way it does, regardless of whether it fits into a pre-established mold.

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I don't want to kill this thread, but I will say this;  

Williams mind works in a freewheeling way. He writes his music, then makes it fit within the boundaries of notation. His knowledge is so spectacular that he is able to do this in an extremely accurate way. ie what you hear is what he intended.

You can't break down his music into theory very well. It's too complex. Williams seldom even uses a single chord progression, it's always skewed in some way, with that brilliant touch.

I disgree. Just because Williams' music doesn't always conform to 18th century classical structures and elementary freshman harmonic progressions doesn't mean it cannot be analysed. Trust me, music far more complex than that of John Williams is analysed every day by composers, theorists, and performers alike. We won't always find I-IV-V-I, but then you rarely find that in most "classical" music since 1870 anyway. Williams music can be analysed using extended harmonic techniques (chromatic third relationships and other distantly related tonal areas). Music theory and music composition go hand in hand. Theory is simply the art of discovering why a certain piece of music sounds the way it does, regardless of whether it fits into a pre-established mold.

A very good answer. I must agree. Williams music does not conform to 18th century classical structures because *drumroll* he is not from the 18th century. To analyze his music, you have to look at it from a 20th century perspective. That means, you have to look at his music from various theoretical perspectives. for example, one reason his triads aren't exactly triads is his jazz background. in jazz, we voice things much different from classical harmonies, and you can see it in his voicings. Also, you need to understand the concept of pitch classes and symmetrical divisions which is very important in 20th century music. and on and on.

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Yes, very clear, it was just that you hadn't initially specified which chord you were replacing with your tritone! However, I don't believe you're quite correct when you say that a Neapolitan chord has to resolve to the dominant, although of course it usually does (and would almost certainly do so in music of the Classical period such as Mozart and even Beethoven). Even if it resolves straight to the tonic, it's still Neapolitan by virtue of its flattened supertonic! Therefore there's no inherent difference between the Neapolitan sixth and your "tritone substitution", aside from the addition of a seventh to the latter (as well as more options when it comes to the inversion). Also, if the Db VII chord in your example resolves outwards by step to C major, then really it's more of an augmented sixth chord than a dominant seventh, but now maybe I really am being too pedantic... ;)

Maybe your being to pentatonic... ;)

Anyway, tritone substitution is used mainly as an easy way to progress in a II-V7-I progression. So if you substitute a tritone away from the V7, it would be II-bII-I. This was mainly done to get away from the wide "secondary dominant" bass movements associated with a standard II-V7-I. In my experience, I don't think the neapolitan moved in such a way.

Of course, this leads to another can of worms: bII substitution...

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Yes, very clear, it was just that you hadn't initially specified which chord you were replacing with your tritone! However, I don't believe you're quite correct when you say that a Neapolitan chord has to resolve to the dominant, although of course it usually does (and would almost certainly do so in music of the Classical period such as Mozart and even Beethoven). Even if it resolves straight to the tonic, it's still Neapolitan by virtue of its flattened supertonic! Therefore there's no inherent difference between the Neapolitan sixth and your "tritone substitution", aside from the addition of a seventh to the latter (as well as more options when it comes to the inversion). Also, if the Db VII chord in your example resolves outwards by step to C major, then really it's more of an augmented sixth chord than a dominant seventh, but now maybe I really am being too pedantic... ;)

Maybe your being to pentatonic... ;)

Anyway, tritone substitution is used mainly as an easy way to progress in a II-V7-I progression. So if you substitute a tritone away from the V7, it would be II-bII-I. This was mainly done to get away from the wide "secondary dominant" bass movements associated with a standard II-V7-I. In my experience, I don't think the neapolitan moved in such a way.

the fact that williams used tritone substitution demonstrates his jazz background. in classical harmony, tritone substitution did not occur until rimsky-korsakov and his fellow russians became infatuated with symmetry, ie. octatonic scale. the ii-bII7-I progression is a very telling sign of williams jazz background.

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Not to be picky, but a Neapolitan sixth is actually a flat II chord, not a flat VI (although of course the Neapolitan triad contains the flattened sixth degree within it). And also, what exactly do you mean by "tritone substitution"??

Yes exactly. I have noticed in themes like David's Theme from A.I. Williams will end on the II chord and modulate back to the tonic for recapitulation. It's an interesting device and one that isn't heard that often.

Also, I love how Williams' seminal '70s work used those closed 7th 2nd inversion chords. It's a neat way of modulating and still catering to proper voice leading.

I love the challenge of lifting Williams' themes because he always uses 1st or 2nd inversions of even the most basic of chords to make them sound more convoluted than basic triads. The man has so much musicality it's actually scary!

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Trivia question:

What is very unusual and interesting about the main motif you hear throughout JW's NBC News Theme? It has to do with the major scale.

Well for one thing I believe it uses every pitch in the scale.

Nice job!

And it uses all 8 tones without repeating any (if you begin after the quick pickup note). It's in D flat, but I will transpose to C for simplicity purposes:

E D F A high-C B G low-C

I am pretty certain JW wasn't trying to use any serial techniques for this one, but we can still call this "eight-tone" technique. ;)

Wow, I never noticed that. I like the idea of an "8-tone serialism" lol

What a great thread to read. It's funny how many little things everyone here notices in JW's music.

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I don't want to kill this thread, but I will say this;  

Williams mind works in a freewheeling way. He writes his music, then makes it fit within the boundaries of notation. His knowledge is so spectacular that he is able to do this in an extremely accurate way. ie what you hear is what he intended.

You can't break down his music into theory very well. It's too complex. Williams seldom even uses a single chord progression, it's always skewed in some way, with that brilliant touch.

I disgree. Just because Williams' music doesn't always conform to 18th century classical structures and elementary freshman harmonic progressions doesn't mean it cannot be analysed. Trust me, music far more complex than that of John Williams is analysed every day by composers, theorists, and performers alike. We won't always find I-IV-V-I, but then you rarely find that in most "classical" music since 1870 anyway. Williams music can be analysed using extended harmonic techniques (chromatic third relationships and other distantly related tonal areas). Music theory and music composition go hand in hand. Theory is simply the art of discovering why a certain piece of music sounds the way it does, regardless of whether it fits into a pre-established mold.

I agree. I wasn't implying that it's impossible, just not very easy to achieve with short little posts of text only.

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Well, those aren't exactly triads, mike, but they're based on the simplest cadence of them all--V to I.

The Asteroid Chase works remarkably well. If you want to look at it literally, the tinkling xylophone and swirling upper woodwinds serve to illustrate the chaotic movement of the miscellaneous small asteroids and dust. The huge brass passages consist almost entirely of major triads, but the lack of a real tonal center makes it hard to tell where the music will go next--hence there's a feeling of...majestic confusion, I suppose. At about 1:46, all that scurrying string tremolo stuff works for relatively obvious reasons.

I find it amusing that at least four lyrical Williams themes written between '77 and '82 use the whole I - iv chord progression in their beginnings--often with that subdominant being an implied minor-sixth chord. (Leia's Theme, Han and Leia's Theme, Marion's Theme, and Luke and Leia.)

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I think Mike meant that Yoda's Theme is very "triadic", which it is. After the first 5 notes (if you include the pick-up) Williams spells a I-7 chord twice, followed by a ii-7. The theme's second subject then continues in a triadic manner.

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yeah, i am talking about the beginning. The music i'm reading it from could be different to the film, but the first five notes G E C (triad) can be harmonized with their inversions G root,E 2nd, C 1st . There is also the same thing done with the Dminor arpeggio . I play it on Guitar as a chord melody so for me the triad thing stands out very clearly

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