"Psycho" motif in "Star Wars"?

[Ross 1]

In the september issue of the movie magazine Premiere, page 27, there is whole article on why Danny Elfman thinksBernard Herrman's score to Psycho is The Perfect Score.

He comments on some of the score's finest moments, and here I find something interesting;

(...) the staccato paranoia of Marion's tense night drive through the rain; the low menacing three-note intro when Norman covers up Marion's murder (a motif later employed by John Williams in Star Wars) (...)

I don't know, I haven't listened to the Psycho score, so I wouldn't know.

Does anyone know what the writer means?

-ROSS, hey where did the question mark emoticon go?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The 3 note motif heard right after Obi-Wan, Luke, Han and Chewie emerge from the secret storage compartiment aboard the Falcon is a direct and deliberate quotation from that same motif in Psycho.

Herrmann used that motif in many other of his scores, like a sort of signature, like Horner uses that 4 note villian motif in a lot of his scores.

Stefancos- fountain of wisdom.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

I love Psycho and Star Wars scores, but had never noticed that...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's been mentioned on this MB several times.

Williams also talked about it in an interview, which i'm sure was postet at JWFan at some point.

(bring it on, Ricard)

Stefancos-

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I don't know, I haven't listened to the Psycho score, so I wouldn't know.

You should! It's one of the great masterpieces in film (score) history. (And you should watch the film, for the same reason )

Marian - who also misses the question mark emoticon.

Gremlins (Jerry Goldsmith)

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

It's been mentioned on this MB several times.

Williams also talked about it in an interview, which i'm sure was postet at JWFan at some point.

(bring it on, Ricard)

Stefancos-  

Totally missed that one!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What were you doing, why weren't you here?

Stefancos- wondering why a guy with a Williams collection larger then Chrusher's is slacking of like that?

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Unfortunatelly I've a very busy life... From next week on, you'll all hear much less from me, as my vacations are over

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well, starting from next week, i'll be visiting your site even less then I already do.

Stefancos- who has a busy life, but still haunts this place.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Then you'll miss the update...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

DO'H!!!!

I'll be there..... :cry:

Stefancos- spineless.

[Ross 1]

I don't know, I haven't listened to the Psycho score, so I wouldn't know.

You should! It's one of the great masterpieces in film (score) history. (And you should watch the film, for the same reason )

Marian - who also misses the question mark emoticon.

Well, Williams himself said it wasn't a good score. But I have seen the movie and payed a lot of attention to the score. I remember thinking "why on earth would this guy use the exact same music in the opening credits as in so many other scenes?"

-ROSS, who will probably just download some of the best cues.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

When Williams says that Psycho is not a good score, I think he speaks from the musical point of view. Thinking of this just as film music, this is a memorable work. Peronally I never listen to the full score -- I much more prefer the suite on Decca Records

DO'H!!!!  

I'll be there.....  

Stefancos- spineless.

Glad to know that

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I much more prefer the suite on Decca Records

What suite it that exactly' date=' what conductor/orchestra?

DO'H!!!!

I'll be there.....

Stefancos- spineless.

Glad to know that

Atleast i'm admitting it.

Stefancos- a deeply flawed human being (Shut up Figo)

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Yes, I don't listen to it very often because the full score on CD is a bit repetitive. That doesn't make it any less good though, and it's amazing in the film.

Well, Williams himself said it wasn't a good score. But I have seen the movie and payed a lot of attention to the score. I remember thinking "why on earth would this guy use the exact same music in the opening credits as in so many other scenes?"

:wow:

Marian - now really worried about the Ross Situation! bawling

[Figo 2]

It's funny that Psycho keeps coming in for such criticism -- or, at the very least, backhanded compliments -- since Herrmann took a good chunk of the score from one of his early concert pieces. Which means the audience would have had to endure it without Hitch's images!

Herrmann, Sinfonietta for String Orchestra (1936)

...reused in Psycho (1960)

[Figo 2]

Incidentally, my experience with the Psycho quote in Star Wars was one of reverse recognition. I knew the score to SW quite well, of course. Then I bought Psycho -- and bingo! Hey!

Anyway, that's my boring tale about how I figured it out.

Figo, who wishes he could be more interesting, like jsawruk.

[Wickenstein 0]

The three note motif shows up in Taxi Driver too, my favorite Herrmann score. I believe it was originally written for Herrmann's Moby Dick cantata. Herrmann liked to reuse a lot of his ideas, which I don't fault him. At least it's usually different in some way. A lot of times, it's hard to even catch his self quoting.

[Eplicon 53]

The three note motif is sometimes known as the "Madness" theme. Herrrmann has used this piece here and there in his other scores, including Taxi Driver.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Damn the analysis employed by the people on this MB of John Williams' music goes into Sherlock Holmes levels sometimes.

-Rogue Leader who just sits there like Dr. Watson looking like a dumb ass pretending to know what Holmes is talking about.

[Morn 8]

I don't know, I haven't listened to the Psycho score, so I wouldn't know.

You should! It's one of the great masterpieces in film (score) history. (And you should watch the film, for the same reason )

Marian - who also misses the question mark emoticon.

Well, Williams himself said it wasn't a good score. But I have seen the movie and payed a lot of attention to the score. I remember thinking "why on earth would this guy use the exact same music in the opening credits as in so many other scenes?"

Williams is a moron. Anyway, the Psycho music use is cool, it ends up standing for the frenzy of the fear of being caught.

Herrmann, Sinfonietta for String Orchestra (1936)  

...reused in Psycho (1960)

Ohh? Which part?

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

I much more prefer the suite on Decca Records

What suite it that exactly, what conductor/orchestra?

This is a 10 minute suite conducted by Herrmann himself, with the London Philharmonic (London/Decca 443 895-2 -- Music from The Great Hitchcock Movie Thrillers).

There are aslo shorter suites on the Elmer Bersntein compilation on Milna (14081-2) and on the Silva Screen compilation (FILMCD162). Salonen and the LA Philharmonic also recorded music from Psycho on their all Herrmann disc for Sony Classical, but I don't know if is the same suite recorded by Herrmann, since I don't have this last one.

[Morn 8]

The herrmann suite is not that good, it's too slow.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Is the Salonen/LA Philhamonic version better?

[Morn 8]

Never heard it.

[Figo 2]

Ohh? Which part?

Herrmann draws off the Sinfonietta for basically the entire second half of the movie. The main title and famous shower music were new, but all the creepy passages with the dissonant counterpoint were recycled or reworked from the concert piece. Apparently, Herrmann took the Psycho arrangements and incorporated them, in turn, into a revised version of the Sinfonietta, which was completed shortly before his death.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

The Salonen disc is great! As far as I remember, the Psycho suite isn't slow at all - perhaps a bit slower than the film recording, but then, film recordings used to be a bit fast in those days IMHO. Great suites of Fahrenheit and Taxi Driver, too.

Marian - who would play it again now, but he has to do some vacuum cleaning. banghead

[Ross 1]

Well, Williams himself said it wasn't a good score. But I have seen the movie and payed a lot of attention to the score. I remember thinking "why on earth would this guy use the exact same music in the opening credits as in so many other scenes?"

:wow:

Marian - now really worried about the Ross Situation! bawling

:wow:

LOL

-ROSS, "You know me, sometimes I'll be quirky" --Homer Simpson.

[Lurker 5]

Paul Hirsch (the editor of Star Wars) was interviewed for the Psycho DVD documentary, and he mentions using that section from Psycho as a temp-track on Star Wars.

The Salonen disc is excellent but I think it might be out-of-print now.

Neil

[Trumpeteer 302]

Ok, when I first saw this topic, I thought it was about the shrieking strings in "Attack of the Clones," during the "Chase Through Coruscant" cue.

But now that you're talking about the three notes in the original film when the guys come out of the secret compartment, I guess I should have known that or at least recognized it. I have "Psycho" on CD and will listen to that score now to find what everyone's talking about.

Jeff -- who now has work to do -- on Labor Day

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

The Salonen disc is excellent but I think it might be out-of-print now.  

Neil

Not in Portugal. Just saw it on the other day...

[Eplicon 53]

I also recommend the Salonen disc as well. I got it around the time it came out. The Psycho suite is still slower than the frenetic pace of the film version, but a tad swifter than Herrmann's re-recordings of it. I really love the Fahrenheit 451 performance (particularly "The Captain's Death"). I listen to this part of the album more than the rest, but it's all good listening.

It's a really well played album, which is not too surprising since most members of the L.A. Philharmonic also moonlight as Hollywood studio musicians.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I have that CD too, i'm by no means an expert on Herrmann, but if you are looking for a CD that will give a good overview of his work then this one is a good place to start.

Stefancos- wonders why no official OST of Psycho has ever been released.

[Lurker 5]

Stefancos- wonders why no official OST of Psycho has ever been released.

What about this?

Seriously though, the Elfman re-recording for the 1998 version was a very faithful modern recording of Herrmann's score. Also McNeely's complete recording of the score for Varese was well done.

And if I'm not totally mistaken, I think the original score was isolated on the last Laser Disc release of the movie. Maybe I'll put that on CD at some point.

Neil - who was listening to the RSNO version of Psycho when he was laid off from The Mail Room

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

if you are looking for a CD that will give a good overview of his work then this one is a good place to start.

This and Gerhardt's Herrmann compilation, both are fantastic.

Marian - who only has clicking CDR copies of both. bawling

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

All Gerhardt recordings are great!

Miguel, who has all Gerhardt RCA Classic Film scores recordings

[Figo 2]

Believe it or not, we used the Salonen disc as a "thank you gift" (a.k.a. premium) during one of our pledge drives. It was very successful.

I don't think it's out of print, although it's been bumped down to mid-price (along with Williams' Five Sacred Trees and Muti's Nino Rota album). Tower had a whole crap load of them the last time Sony went on sale.

[Morn 8]

Stefancos- wonders why no official OST of Psycho has ever been released.

Eh??? What about this?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00...4469371-6583100

The McNeely re-recording.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

The McNeely is great, but it's not the OST recording.

Marian - who has and likes the McNeely.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

And there's also a recording of the complete score by Herrmann on Unikorn Kanchana label (UKCD2021). This I belive is out of print.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm guessing is much to slow compared to the film tempo?

Stefancos- wondering why Herrmann conducts his own work soooooo slow.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

To tell you the truth, I haven't heard this in a while, but I believe is in fact slower than in the film.

[Morn 8]

Herrmann said he overcomposed it, that's why he always conducts it slow...

[Frosty 0]

Williams has said that the music for Psycho was effective, but not one of his favorites.

Frosty

Who likes the Psycho score in small doses.

[Guest]

Williams has said that the music for Psycho was effective, but not one of his favorites.

Thank you! Finally, somebody backs me up.

"The score to 'Psycho' wasn't very good, but it was very effective."

--John Williams, september 1997

[Ross 1]

That post, of course, was mine. I kinda logged out by accident.

By the way, can someone tell me exactly where the motif is? I don't know when you mean. Is it the "fool who follows the fool" scene?

-ROSS, watching a rerun (?!) of the Diamondbacks vs. Giants game on ESPN. Barry Bonds spits a lot!

[scissorhands 16]

I don't know where it is.

But I know another one:

Joel McNeely's JAWS, 7th track: Ben Gardner's Boat, 2 minutes and 55 seconds. You can hear the Psycho motif (it's curious, as in the original soundtrack it doesn't sound like that motif)

LOL LOL LOL

[Lurker 5]

By the way, can someone tell me exactly where the motif is? I don't know when you mean. Is it the "fool who follows the fool" scene?

Yes, when the hidden compartment is first revealed.

Neil

[Morn 8]

Well, Williams is wrong.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

I just picked up a sealed copy of the Elfman rendition for $4 at a State Fair last week. I liked it... Now I want to hear Herrmann's original. Since I love Williams' "Herrmann-esque" music, I bet I'll like Herrmann's music itself.

-Chris, Who recently watched Psycho 2 & 3 and wants to watch the original but keeps missing it when they put it on TV...