Empire Strikes Back unused/rejected cues

[tpigeon 3]

I've been listening to the Empire Strikes Back score lately and I'm noticing more that much of the music in the beginning is either out of order chronologically or simply not used. I know that all three SE scores contain unused music in some of the cues, but there seems to be a lot of it in the beginning of Empire in the first four tracks. The ones I know of that were replaced with other bits of score are the Aboard the Executor scene, which contains the best rendition of the Imperial March I've ever heard and, low and beyold, it was rejected in favor of a much weaker tracked segment of the concert piece. The other one is the scene in which one of the Rogue pilots is searching for Han and Luke in the wilderness. The music on the soundtrack was perfectly fine and would have suited the scene nicely, but they went and put music from the finale in that scene. Why?!

Ted

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

GL is a hack. Maybe he learnt it from Spielberg (1941, CEO3K...)

But people never complained until TPM

[tpigeon 3]

Are we certain this was Lucas' doing? And Spielberg has done his share of chopping away at Williams' work too, there's no questions about that. As for this music in particular, it seems that in many other scores we have successfully determined where certain unused cues were intended to go (ROTJ, Jaws), but I haven't read much about this.

Ted

[Ollie 1,059]

I would imagine Gary Kurtz and Irvin Kershner had some say as well.

[Sixers 0]

The other one is the scene in which one of the Rogue pilots is searching for Han and Luke in the wilderness. The music on the soundtrack was perfectly fine and would have suited the scene nicely, but they went and put music from the finale in that scene. Why?!

I tried to sync the music to that scene, and I kinda see why they took it out. I agree, it was great music, with the Jaws theme to start it off, but it didn't quite fit.

I have a similar question, why did they remove the first minutes Training of a Jedi Knight? That part of that cue was great....

[King Mark 3,631]

there's that trumpet solo of Luke's theme in ESB in Ice Planet Hoth before Leia's Theme...unused...what a shame.

K.M.

[Salacius 7]

there's that trumpet solo of Luke's theme in ESB in Ice Planet Hoth before Leia's Theme...unused...what a shame.

K.M.

Yeap

[Henry B 50]

I don't like most of the unreleased ESB music. Fun to listen to, but it's... too much. I watched the scene with "The Training of a Jedi Knight" restored at T'Bone's Star Wars Universe, and it was... well, terrible.

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

'hyperspace' fits that speeder scene perfectly.

[MikeyKW 0]

Film music is created first and foremost to fit final form of the film it accompanies. If it does not, no matter how brilliant it is

on it's own, it has to go. As much as I admire these unused bits and pieces of ESB and I'm glad it's been included on the CDs

as a secondary product, I think the editing of the cues on screen benefit the film tremendously.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I have a similar question, why did they remove the first minutes Training of a Jedi Knight? That part of that cue was great....

To make the soundtrack a bit more dynamic. After coming out of that loud scene in the asteroid film (effects, big score moment), it's good to contrast it with some silence.

[Trent B 337]

I don't like most of the unreleased ESB music. Fun to listen to, but it's... too much. I watched the scene with "The Training of a Jedi Knight" restored at T'Bone's Star Wars Universe, and it was... well, terrible.

I watched that plus the others and I agree.

I am glad the music was cut, if it wasn't it would have definitely ruined the tension for those scenes.

[skyy38 21]

there's that trumpet solo of Luke's theme in ESB in Ice Planet Hoth before Leia's Theme...unused...what a shame.

K.M.

What track and time are you referring to?

In the movie is this just before Luke gets face-owned by the Wampa?

[ymenard 54]

Isn't the stuff about alternate cues at the start of TESB all written in the RCA/Victor booklet? Shame on Sony for not giving at least the text available to the "newer" versions.

[Trent B 337]

Isn't the stuff about alternate cues at the start of TESB all written in the RCA/Victor booklet?  Shame on Sony for not giving at least the text available to the "newer" versions.

Yes it is and it's also in the Anthology booklet, I believe.

[GoodMusician 56]

See, I have problems with debates like this. Not to say I don't agree with many of the sentiments shown here but I'm sure there are reasonable reasons for why they did such edits.

You have to remember that in film, the easiest thing to change, in order to change the mood, is the muisc.

For example:

In Jurassic Park there is a scene where the raptors corner the children in the kitchen and practically hunt them down. I'm 20 years old and I saw this movie when I was 6. To this DAY I cannot watch this scene. It scares the living FUCK out of me. I cannot watch it.

My only memory of this movie when I saw it opening night was of looking over the seat as Ellie and Muldoon left the shed to go hunt down the raptors. I promptly hid my face. That night I had nightmares about raptors comming to get me.

Well, I recently did a complete edit of the films score of Jurassic Park and found that the track called "Raptors Attack" on the album--a track I always skipped becuase it just... meant nothing to me--was actually originally intended for this very scene!

I then did an edit, which can be viewed on Youtube, of what the scene would be like with the music.

The scene became SO terrifying that I nearly pissed my pants.

I then thought to myself, WHY would they not use this BRILLIANT score for this scene! It makes no sense!

And then it dawned on me. This movie was PG-13... but at the same time, was a MAJOR draw for Children. Had this music been used in the scene, can you IMAGINE how many kids would have been CRYING and screaming and kicking and running out of the threatre! It would have been a disaster!

Steven Speilberg knew this...and so, he cut the music from the film and instead, tracked in "Ellie and Muldoon to the Shed." This music is much subteler and quiter. Some moments from the original track are still used such as when the raptor opens the door, or when the raptor pops it's head through the table... but most of it is tracked.

I guess my point in this is that the music is there for the EXPLICIT purpose to heighten and strengthen the film. But, it also is meant to aurally tell the audience how to feel. If the feeling is NOT what the director wants, why shouldn't he change it?

Just because it's John Williams does NOT mean he's not prone to mistakes.

Another scene in JP where they used tracked music instead of the score was "Raptors in the Shed,." THe original track is a VERY 90's action synth track (If you havn't heard it, think 90's Hans Zimmer). Had it been left in, the Film at that point would have shown it's age. It would have become obvious how old the film truly was--similar to how you can tell music writen in the 90's or in the 2000 by their sound.

Most John Williams somehow manages to remain ageless, but this one track would TRULY had snagged the movie in the early 90's. (Same reason why they cut 'The Jitterbug' in Wizard of Oz.)

They wisely decided to track music in from other more orchestral raptor attacks scenes and didn't use the original track at all. Had they used it, Jurassic Park wouldn't feel modern or ageless today as it still does. It would be blatantly obvious it was made in 1993.

So again, my point in this is that ultimately, a lot of these decisions make sense and have VERY good reasons behind them.

You may love the score, which is why they released on album... for you to enjoy it, but in the film, it's purpose is not the same as it is on the album and we must keep in mind that these changes are--for the most part--done for a very important reason.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

I don't like most of the unreleased ESB music. Fun to listen to, but it's... too much. I watched the scene with "The Training of a Jedi Knight" restored at T'Bone's Star Wars Universe, and it was... well, terrible.

Blasphemy!

J/K.

I love both the movie and the score equally. The movie works either with or without the unused music, so I don't care about hacking... it doesn't bother me too much. Sure, the unused Imperial March was excellent... but what can you do... the theme worked well there too.

The only movies that I'm truly offended by the music editing are The Lost World and Clones (with a dishonorable mention to TPM). Atrocious in all, especially in TLW - where the best music was not used and the tmeme was poorly tracked in its place!

On a good note, at least Sith wasn't edited poorly at all... though I could have lived without the TPM and AotC tracking and a little louder music mix in the Padme/Anakin/Obi-Wan Mustufar scene. Truly great music that is barely audible until you hear it via a DVD rip.

[King Mark 3,631]

RotS isn't badly edited overall,but the score is still mixed waaay too low.

K.M.

[Jeshopk 8]

It doesn't really matter. The ESB scenes without music would have worked just as well with what Williams wrote for them. At least it was not obvious when they released the film that they dialed out music sections. Now they would just fade out the music unceremoniously in an awkward spot.

I really think some of those scenes are interesting with music and without music. But I really don't think it is anything more than a personal preference.

JW said that they spotted the whole thing and decided after where to drop out the music - not that there was anything wrong with that. It sounds nice on album, so I am happy for the waste of energy.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

That's right. ESB was so well-made that it worked without the masterpiece music! At least Lucas salvaged himself and directed one of his own SW movies well... the last one.

-Chris

PS- Relax, only a friendly barb at the "I-LOVE-SW/ANH-ONLY" crowd.

[tpigeon 3]

See, I have problems with debates like this. Not to say I don't agree with many of the sentiments shown here but I'm sure there are reasonable reasons for why they did such edits.

You have to remember that in film, the easiest thing to change, in order to change the mood, is the muisc.

For example:

In Jurassic Park there is a scene where the raptors corner the children in the kitchen and practically hunt them down. I'm 20 years old and I saw this movie when I was 6. To this DAY I cannot watch this scene. It scares the living FUCK out of me. I cannot watch it.

My only memory of this movie when I saw it opening night was of looking over the seat as Ellie and Muldoon left the shed to go hunt down the raptors. I promptly hid my face. That night I had nightmares about raptors comming to get me.

Well, I recently did a complete edit of the films score of Jurassic Park and found that the track called "Raptors Attack" on the album--a track I always skipped becuase it just... meant nothing to me--was actually originally intended for this very scene!

I then did an edit, which can be viewed on Youtube, of what the scene would be like with the music.

The scene became SO terrifying that I nearly pissed my pants.  

I then thought to myself, WHY would they not use this BRILLIANT score for this scene! It makes no sense!

And then it dawned on me. This movie was PG-13... but at the same time, was a MAJOR draw for Children. Had this music been used in the scene, can you IMAGINE how many kids would have been CRYING and screaming and kicking and running out of the threatre! It would have been a disaster!

Steven Speilberg knew this...and so, he cut the music from the film and instead, tracked in "Ellie and Muldoon to the Shed." This music is much subteler and quiter. Some moments from the original track are still used such as when the raptor opens the door, or when the raptor pops it's head through the table... but most of it is tracked.

I guess my point in this is that the music is there for the EXPLICIT purpose to heighten and strengthen the film. But, it also is meant to aurally tell the audience how to feel. If the feeling is NOT what the director wants, why shouldn't he change it?  

Just because it's John Williams does NOT mean he's not prone to mistakes.

Another scene in JP where they used tracked music instead of the score was "Raptors in the Shed,." THe original track is a VERY 90's action synth track (If you havn't heard it, think 90's Hans Zimmer). Had it been left in, the Film at that point would have shown it's age. It would have become obvious how old the film truly was--similar to how you can tell music writen in the 90's or in the 2000 by their sound.  

Most John Williams somehow manages to remain ageless, but this one track would TRULY had snagged the movie in the early 90's. (Same reason why they cut 'The Jitterbug' in Wizard of Oz.)

They wisely decided to track music in from other more orchestral raptor attacks scenes and didn't use the original track at all. Had they used it, Jurassic Park wouldn't feel modern or ageless today as it still does. It would be blatantly obvious it was made in 1993.  

So again, my point in this is that ultimately, a lot of these decisions make sense and have VERY good reasons behind them.  

You may love the score, which is why they released on album... for you to enjoy it, but in the film, it's purpose is not the same as it is on the album and we must keep in mind that these changes are--for the most part--done for a very important reason.

I never said anything of the sort. I was merely inquiring as to where JW Fans think the music fits and why it was cut. There's nothing wrong with this discussion at all. At no point do I allude to the idea that Williams is always right or is holy. Editing and cutting cues is part of the scoring process. I have just read very little about these cues and I wanted to know more. However, regarding the Executor music, whoever tracked in the concert piece segment of the Imperial March over the rendition initially scored to the scene is flat out moronic, plain and simple. And by the way, I am one of the bigger proponents of the film being first and foremost on this Board. I most always assess a score based on how it contributes to the images of the film. I am quite aware of the things you mention.

Ted

[GoodMusician 56]

Whoa whoa... heh calm down...

I was just voicing my concern about threads like this. I find that they all to quickly turn into bash fests against GL and the like and it bothers me.

And it wasn't directed at you so much... just everyone who reads it lol...

I personally liked where you were going so it was more of a cautionary thing...

I personally am not too familiarwith the edits in ESB--it's the one Star Wars that won't play on my computer or my tv dvd player... how odd is that?

but anyways...

[tpigeon 3]

Sorry, GoodMusician. I agree that many of these discussions ultimately get back to how horrible Lucas is, which is why I suggested that maybe it wasn't him. Based on what I've read, the director/producers made some good choices in rejecting cues altogether for quiet.

Ted

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

George Lucas raped my childhood memories!

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't care because when I listen to the music I don't associate it with the film.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

George Lucas raped my childhood memories!

You have said that so many times...

Are you sure he doesnt have your consent?

[NewRisingSun 0]

I notice that there's a lot more unused music whenever Lucas doesn't direct himself. Unless I'm mistaken, TESB and ROTJ each have more unused music than ANH, TPM, AOTC or ROTS.

Could it be that Williams only spotted the film with Lucas present, and when Kershner/Marquand heard the final product, they rejected some cues because they had something else in mind than Lucas, and they, being the directors, got the last word?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Could it be that Williams only spotted the film with Lucas present, and when Kershner/Marquand heard the final product, they rejected some cues because they had something else in mind than Lucas, and they, being the directors, got the last word?

Could be, but i think GL as executive producer had the last word.

[tpigeon 3]

Many reports indicated that Lucas practically took over shooting Return of the Jedi, a la Toobe Hooper and Steven Spielberg on Poltergeist.

Ted

[Ollie 1,059]

ROTJ is pretty much wall to wall music and also where the problems began to surface that would plague the prequels.

[Red 75]

George Lucas raped my childhood memories!

Your memories must be pretty bitter...

[ymenard 54]

I still think the unreleased TESB music, as it stands non-related to the movie, is pretty good. It's mostly underscoring (except that Luke/Vader confrontation) and imho the underscoring of TESB is Williams at it's underscoring-best.

Everything on Hoth per example, is full of subtleties