The Hobbit Film Trilogy Thread

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,363]

Well remember, when it was only 2 films, we were originally going to get Smaug being killed in the same film as the Battle of 5 armies. So I think things will still be the same way now, and Film 2 will end with us having met Smaug, but him not being dead. Him dying early in the film doesn't really matter, he was always going to die hours before the end credits rolled no matter what.

[KK 3,307]

They might create additional scenes with Smaug for film 2 so we get more familiar with him before he's killed off in the beginning of film 3. And then they'd end the 2nd film with Bilbo's conversation and an angry Smaug bursting out of the mountain to attack Laketown. It would make a good cliffhanger ending.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

The prologues you mentioned are too close in line with how it was done in LOTR (Bilbo dreaming? ). I agree with the first one, but not the other ones.

And I don't think Smaug will die in the 2nd film.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

The prologues you mentioned are too close in line with how it was done in LOTR (Bilbo dreaming? ).

Yeah, that one might a bit far fetched, but not entirely impossible if PJ tries to make parallels between The Hobbit and LOTR. And the other reason I said that is that first film ends at the Eagles' eyrie, where the Company will rest till the beginning of Film 2, and that could be a good way to introduce the characters back, in my opinion.

I think PJ would attempt to avoid drawing such parallels in fear of claims of "LOTR rehash".

I agree with the first one, but not the other ones.

I still firmly believe that the third film's prologue will be the Battle Of Azanulbizar (that is, if Smaug dies at the end of the second film), because as Boyens said, Smaug's death is part of a bigger whole, so end that story at the end of film 2 and have the third film being all about the blood feud between Dwarves and Orcs seems about right to me.

I suppose it's quite possible, considering they could elaborate on Thorin's story in the Battle of Azanulbizar. But then it would bring all the Moria business, which they would have to go into with some detail, and I don't know how they'd fit all that in.

[gkgyver 1,645]

That is longer than an hour. And think that makes now a second film. Meaning they were going to shoot a shitload of material that would have been discarded because it didn't fit in a four hour film.

That doesn't make the second film. That probably makes about one third of the second film. Remember that it's called The Desolation Of Smaug, so the Dwarves will reach the Lonely Mountain in this one. You'll have Laketown (with characters like Bard and the Master of the town that will be fleshed-out, then the journey to the mountain and Bilbo meeting Smaug. Whether we'll see Smaug attacking Laketown in this one is uncertain for the moment)

Maybe they'll try for the "seeing the Lonely Mountain ending" for the second one.

Think you have Beorn, the other White Counicil meeting, Mirkwood, invented scenes in Mirkwood, the river, Bilbo on top of a tree, Gandalf with someone else in Dol Guldur doing whatever, the Dwarves captures by spiders, Bilbo rescuing them (his big moment so it can't be done so fast as it would be if you comprise all this in an hour), the dwarves encountering the elves, presenting the whole elven business with the King wanting the treasure, the dwarves in prison, probably some sort of battle at Dol Guldur (there's a orc villain there and everything), then Bilbo and the company escaping from the elves and looking at the Mountain, maybe arriving on Laketown. Maybe them leaving Laketown but that would be more anticlimatic.

It wouldn't be as different in rythm from the first one. Maybe a bit shorter.

Then everything else in the third film.

No way. I can't see that working at all. The third film would have all the meaty stuff, while the second one would be pretty dull. And why call it The Desolation Of Smaug if we don't even see that place? No. I'm confident the Dwarves will reach the mountain in the second film. Enough stretching with film 1. Get to the real business in film 2, please.

If you get to the real business in film 2, that leaves film 3 with pretty little. Unless they extensively show events happening after the Hobbit book.

The Battle Of The Five Armies isn't that long or elaborate. You'd have to expand that to something like the siege of Gondor.

[KK 3,307]

Which is what Jackson will end up doing.

[Jay 37,363]

Of COURSE The Battle of Five Armies will be dramatically extended for the film version as compared to the book! That was never in question

[KK 3,307]

Indeed, and considering there'll be this huge battle to consider, and the potential death of Smaug. I doubt the opening prologue is going to be yet another battle.

[Jay 37,363]

It's possible the Battle of Azanulbizar will be included in the Film 1 prologue and the other films don't even have prologues.

Or its possible the Battle of Azanulbiza will be shown in the Film 2 prologue and they are going to film a new prologue for Film 3 next summer.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

It's possible the Battle of Azanulbizar will be included in the Film 1 prologue and the other films don't even have prologues.

The opening prologue track from the score is about 7 minutes and that includes the old Bilbo narration. Not to mention, most of the prologue is made up of Smaug's theme and the dwarven material, so I doubt there'll be room for the Battle of Azanulbizar.

Or its possible the Battle of Azanulbiza will be shown in the Film 2 prologue and they are going to film a new prologue for Film 3 next summer.

This, I can agree with.

Or its possible the Battle of Azanulbiza will be shown in the Film 2 prologue and they are going to film a new prologue for Film 3 next summer.

If there's one place I don't see the Battle Of Azanulbizar happening, it's in film 2 prologue, because there would be no reason for it to appear here. In film 3, it would work, because that whole affair finds its conclusion at the Battle Of Five Armies, and in Film 1 it would work because it introduces us to some of the Dwarves from the Company and gives them some background story. But in Film 2, it would feel totally unrelated to what will happen in this film.

But the third film isn't about the feud between the dwarves and the orcs, so that's a loose connection to base the prologue on. But you could argue that the whole trilogy in some way or the other is based on Thorin's tale (it's still Bilbo's story, but Thorin will clearly have some of the limelight) and so the Battle of Azanulbizar could be easily connected to Thorin.

[Brónach 1,302]

The Azanulbizar battle will likely be in the last film. It's the same as making Gollum's story open ROTK.

I wish An Unexpected Journey didn't open with a prologue. I don't mean the bookend prologue but the dragon stuff. It would be could to have that introduced as told by the Dwarves. So we discover what's going on with Bilbo. A sudden prologue already into the film with the song could be awesome.

[KK 3,307]

The Azanulbizar battle will likely be in the last film. It's the same as making Gollum's story open ROTK.

Except its another battle to add on to the pile of battles. Not to mention, there's all the Moria backstory, which is quite a lot of baggage when being introduced in the final film.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Brónach 1,302]

The Azanulbizar battle will likely be in the last film. It's the same as making Gollum's story open ROTK.

Except its another battle to add on to the pile of battles.

Well, true.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,363]

Wasn't there a rumor once that Smaug would be dead by the end of the first film when there was only 2 films?

[gkgyver 1,645]

The Azanulbizar battle will likely be in the last film. It's the same as making Gollum's story open ROTK.

Except its another battle to add on to the pile of battles. Not to mention, there's all the Moria backstory, which is quite a lot of baggage when being introduced in the final film.

PJ doesn't have problems including several battles in one film. Return of the King had the Osgiliath battle, the Pelennor battle and a short one at the Black Gate. Return of the King is practicall nothing but one giant battle.

And also, I think it is very likely Smaug will die in film 2. That would leave film 3 with the prologue battle and the Battle of Five Armies. That's absolutely ok for a 3 hour film.

It's possible the Battle of Azanulbizar will be included in the Film 1 prologue and the other films don't even have prologues.

The opening prologue track from the score is about 7 minutes and that includes the old Bilbo narration. Not to mention, most of the prologue is made up of Smaug's theme and the dwarven material, so I doubt there'll be room for the Battle of Azanulbizar.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on soundtrack cues. Scoring took place after the OST was done, and just remember what happened to the prologue of FOTR.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,363]

I remember the rumor now, it was when Del Toro was attached. Originally it was one film. Then, it was two films and they said Smaug was dead by the end of the first and the second was the Battle of Five Armies and some sort of bridging material to LOTR. We probably talked about it in the early days of this thread.

Now with PJ directing it seems they have switched to adapting every last thing from the book plus stuff that happened during its time frame, rather than weird bridging stuff.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

McKellen won't be there since he's on suicide watch.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

And completely pathetic.

[Jay 37,363]

OK, that was really really cool. Couple thoughts:

-Why did he put the scenes of Gandalf in Dol Guldur (which I assume is when he enters in 2063, 878 years before The Hobbit) in the middle of the Bag End scenes? Does he think that Gandalf will tell Bilbo and the Dwarves the story of Sauron and his theory that the Necromancer could be him while in Bag End or something? The music we have on the OST does not support this, it appears this will be shown when Gandalf meets with the White Council in Rivendell.

EDIT: No wait, I forgot about "The Hill Of Sorcery" track on the OST..... that does that mean they intend to show Gandalf entering Dol Guldur concurrent with the events of the film, like Gandalf now goes there after the troll scenes?

-Why did he put the Warg scene at the end, after the Misty Mountains / Goblin King / Gollum bits? We know from the OST the Warg scene is between the trolls and Rivendell.

-I think he forgot a few shots from some of the trailers.... like the shot of one of the dwarves covered in spider webs, and another another one from the Mirkwood sequence.

-Man, I didn't realize before how much Shire footage has been released. It's HALF of all the released footage!

[Faleel 5,348]

-Why did he put the Warg scene at the end, after the Misty Mountains / Goblin King / Gollum bits? We know from the OST the Warg scene is between the trolls and Rivendell.

Is there not 2 Warg scenes?

[Incanus 5,714]

OK, that was really really cool. Couple thoughts:

-Why did he put the scenes of Gandalf in Dol Guldur (which I assume is when he enters in 2063, 878 years before The Hobbit) in the middle of the Bag End scenes? Does he think that Gandalf will tell Bilbo and the Dwarves the story of Sauron and his theory that the Necromancer could be him while in Bag End or something? The music we have on the OST does not support this, it appears this will be shown when Gandalf meets with the White Council in Rivendell.

Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur twice, first long before the Hobbit and then again in 2850 TA, roughly a 100 years before the events of the book, when he finds Thrain imprisoned and receives the map and the key to Erebor, which in a way works as a catalyst for the whole Quest. I suppose this second visit will be the one shown in the film.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

-Why did he put the scenes of Gandalf in Dol Guldur (which I assume is when he enters in 2063, 878 years before The Hobbit) in the middle of the Bag End scenes? Does he think that Gandalf will tell Bilbo and the Dwarves the story of Sauron and his theory that the Necromancer could be him while in Bag End or something? The music we have on the OST does not support this, it appears this will be shown when Gandalf meets with the White Council in Rivendell.

Gandalf probably goes twice to Dol Guldur: once before Trollshaws, and once after that (An Ancient Enemy and The Hill Of Sorcery on the OST). Well, actually, he probably goes there only once (after Trollshaws), but leaves the Company twice (before and after Trollshaws). Whereto, the first time? Don't know.

The guy explains why he put those shot there in a thread in TORN forum: http://newboards.the...=View Flat Mode

I am interested in seeing this geographical marvel happen. Dol Guldur isn't exactly a pony ride away from Trollshaws. If the first visit is ever shown I think it will be a flashback as I am quite sure the second visit will also be shown in one. Unless PJ has wandered off the actual history of the tale.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Well, we know that the Company meets Radgy at Trollshaws. But is it after or before the Trolls scene? In any case, he tells Gandalf about the evil rising and all that shit, so that probably leads Gandalf to go to Dol Guldur. And according to the OST tracklist, this is after the Trolls scene. But why does Gandalf leaves the Company before the Trolls scene, then?

He goes to scout the road ahead and is away for only a short while, not weeks.

I am guessing there will be flashbacks on the previous visits and this combined with Radagast's news leads to Gandalf and the White Council conferring in Rivendell.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

If that's the reason why he leaves them, then he didn't do a very good job.

"Hey, guys, I'm gonna go ahead and check if there are no monsters waiting for us there", and then the Dwarves get caught by the Trolls. Good job, Gandy!

The Dwarves are a bunch of accident prone pansies! At least they have weapons now unlike in the novel.

[Jay 37,363]

Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur twice, first long before the Hobbit and then again in 2850 TA, roughly a 100 years before the events of the book, when he finds Thrain imprisoned and receives the map and the key to Erebor, which in a way works as a catalyst for the whole Quest. I suppose this second visit will be the one shown in the film.

Of course! This could very well be shown in flashback while everyone is in Bag End, then.... though we don't seem to have music for it on the OST, do we?

-Why did he put the Warg scene at the end, after the Misty Mountains / Goblin King / Gollum bits? We know from the OST the Warg scene is between the trolls and Rivendell.

Is there not 2 Warg scenes?

Yes. Warg Scouts and Out Of The Frying Pan scenes.

Of course, momentary lapse of reason.

[Incanus 5,714]

Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur twice, first long before the Hobbit and then again in 2850 TA, roughly a 100 years before the events of the book, when he finds Thrain imprisoned and receives the map and the key to Erebor, which in a way works as a catalyst for the whole Quest. I suppose this second visit will be the one shown in the film.

Of course! This could very well be shown in flashback while everyone is in Bag End, then.... though we don't seem to have music for it on the OST, do we?

It could be presented either in Radagast the Brown or Hill of Sorcery tracks as Gandalf found out that the Necromancer was Sauron on the second visit, when he found Thráin and the key and the map. I have no idea will they present all this as a flashback or send Gandalf really on another sleuthing mission with Radagast.

[Jay 37,363]

Well, if "An Ancient Enemy" and "Hill of Sorcery" is the music for Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur that included meeting Thrain and getting the key and map, then they must be flashbacks because he already has the map when he shows it to Thorin in Bag End of course (and getting all that from Thrain is the catalyst for the whole quest).

Therefore, there placement on the OST shows us that Gandalf will tell the others about these events in two installments, first after they leave the Shire (Track 7 "The World Is Ahead") and before they meet up with Radagast (Track 9 "Radagast the Brown"), and the second half of the story after the troll stuff (track 11 "A Troll-hoard") and before the Wargs chase them to Rivendell (track 13 "Warg-Scouts").

Of course, those two tracks could have been placed out of sequence on the OST on purpose for an improved listening experience.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So you are sure the CD is in complete Chrono order?

[Incanus 5,714]

Well, if "An Ancient Enemy" and "Hill of Sorcery" is the music for Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur that included meeting Thrain and getting the key and map, then they must be flashbacks because he already has the map when he shows it to Thorin in Bag End of course (and getting all that from Thrain is the catalyst for the whole quest). Therefore, their placement on the OST shows us that Gandalf will tell the others about these events after they leave the Shire (Track 6 "The Adventure Begins") and before they meet the Trolls (track 10 "Roast Mutton").

However, if "An Ancient Enemy" and "Hill Of Sorcery" are for some real-time event of Gandalf going there when he leaves the party before the trolls, then I have no idea what he does there since he's seemingly already learned everything to learn, right? Or does he prove that Necromancer = Sauron AFTER the Thrain/map/key visit?

No Gandalf discovers Sauron on his second visit. Not much more is known of how he does this but it leads to his lobbying of action against Sauron in the White Council.

So you are sure the CD is in complete Chrono order?

A good question, although much of it seems to be in chronological order.

[Jay 37,363]

So wait, are we thinking that Ragadast telling Gandalf about the evil rising or whatever is an event that happens concurrent with the main story, and not part of a flashback?

Do we even have proof that the entire company meets up with Radagast in the film? In all the released pictures, isn't Radagast only shown with Gandalf?

I think it's possible Radagast ONLY appears in flashbacks in the film...

Wasn't there also a rumor that Radagast will join Gandalf on his entrance to Dol Guldur where he confirms its Sauron there? Has this been proven or disproven?

So you are sure the CD is in complete Chrono order?

A good question, although much of it seems to be in chronological order.

If anything, maybe The Hill Of Sorcery is supposed to be after An Ancient Enemy and/or Radagast The Brown, but it was moved to later to break up the sequence for album listening purposes

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,363]

This is how I think the events could be pictured:

After they have left the Shire, during a night camp scene or something like that, Gandalf tells them how he got the key and the map (flashback scene). He will not explain this in Bag-End to avoid over-exposition in that place and to get the characters moving.

Yes, I agree.

Then, we cut to Radagast in Rhosgobel being attacked by the spiders and forced to flee. He'll meet the Company (or at least Gandalf) after the Trolls scene, which will lead Gandalf to go to Dol Guldur.

OK to the first part, that could possibly makes sense, but the second part doesn't. Gandalf only leaves the company for a short while between the start of their journey and when he returns to save them from the trolls, not nearly enough time to trek to Dol Guldur. Plus, what reason would he have to go back there anyway? He already confirmed Sauron was there 100 years prior when he got Thrain's map there.

In my opinion, it makes sense. Now the only thing that doesn't fit is that in one of the v-logs, I think I remember seeing Gandalf visiting Radgy in Rhosgobel (well, we didn't actually see it, but I remember hearing Gandy saying: "I need a horse, quick" and Radgy asking: "Where are you going?", so I guess tihs was taking place there). Where could that go?

What's a v-log? Is that the official Production Diaries?

So here is another guess: after they have left the Shire, Gandy goes to visit Radgy in Rhosgobel, and Radgy tells him: "Dark shit is happening, blablabla... People have seen Trolls coming down from the mountains" (with An Ancient Enemy as the underscore for that scene), and then Gandalf will be like: "Shit! The Dwarves are in trouble!", which lead to him saying he needs a horse, Radgy being attacked soon after, etc...

Yes! I think I got it!

Yes! I agree, that makes sense!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Brónach 1,302]

So here is another guess: after they have left the Shire, Gandy goes to visit Radgy in Rhosgobel, and Radgy tells him: "Dark shit is happening, blablabla... People have seen Trolls coming down from the mountains" (with An Ancient Enemy as the underscore for that scene), and then Gandalf will be like: "Shit! The Dwarves are in trouble!", which lead to him saying he needs a horse, Radgy being attacked soon after, etc...

Yes! I think I got it!

But isn't Rhosgobel in Mirkwood... at the other side of the mountains??

[Jay 37,363]

Aha. So maybe I am right and Radagast is ONLY seen in flashbacks in the film.

Or maybe when Gandalf visits him, it isn't in Rhosgobel?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,363]

Yea, they probably just gloss over how long it takes Gandalf to go to Radgy's house, or they just don't say where it is

[BloodBoal 7,538]