FotR: The Ring's Theme

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Am I the only one who thinks the Ring's Theme from Shore's LotR: FotR score sounds like the Batman theme from Batman Forever and Batman & Robin, or am I just nuts? :confused:

Prelude and Main Titles from Superman: The Movie yipee yipee yipee

[Morn 8]

I think it sounds like the defeat theme from Cleopatra.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I haven't heard Batman & Robin, I've only read that it supposedly is nearly the same as Batman Forever, and at least I never heard the Ring theme there...

In any case, it's an amazing theme. And hearing it over the FOTR title immediately set the mood for me. The cool thing is, it doesn't sound apparently evil - but it sounds like there's no way you could change the theme to sound positive.

Marian - who thinks that theme is horribly underrepresented on the CD.

[scissorhands 16]

I think they are very different.

Marian, the ring's theme is soooooo simple.....that when I heard it for the first time, I thought it was a secondary theme.

scissorhands - who thinks Marian has the two editions of Shore's LOTR

and

who thinks Elliot Goldenthal would have done an EXCELLENT work in LOTR trilogy

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Simply, yet hugely effective. What two editions? And I'm sure Goldenthal could write grea music for LOTR, just like Williams and other composers. If he'd write a great Tolkien score, I don't know. .)

[scissorhands 16]

Always the same excuse (having read the books.......I'm getting bored, and I have start to think you have no more reasons LOL )

Well, first the original soundtrack was released. And a month later another CD with more music. (the first one had a picture of the hobbits, this second one the original poster)

[Guest]

Well, first the original soundtrack was released. And a month later another CD with more music. (the first one had a picture of the hobbits, this second one the original poster)

really, I didn't know that.

Could you tell me please what's new on the second CD?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Always the same excuse (having read the books)

Yes, because there's far too much in it to understand it by just reading the screenplay/watching the film.

As for that second release bit, I've never heard of it. The original CD was released with several different covers (pre-dating AOTC in using that stupid idea to sell more CDs) plus a limited release in red leather look (like Bilbo's book) - which is the one I have. But they all have the same music.

[scissorhands 16]

I'm sorry.

I was VERY WRONG.

It was rumored, and I thought it was released ('cause when I saw another picture on the OST, I suddenly related it to the new edition).

What a stupid deduction!

scissorhands - can't forgive himself

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Heh. Well, Shore himself said he'd like to do an expanded edition, but he prefers to wait until they have the time to do a decent release, instead of rushing it out. I agree with him. 8O

Marian - confident this will be no "Ultimate Edition"-type joke, even though it may take a while.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Regarding the matter of the "ring theme", I'm not sure everybody here is speaking of the same theme, as there are several themes/motives that can be connected to the ring.

1.: The Ring / Isildur Theme ("Fate Theme")

This is the one heard over the film title and in the prologue, also occuring during Frodo's and Gandalf's conversation in Bag End and, more prominently, when the fellowship's boats pass the Argonath. I gave it its title because to me it conveys a sense of fate, and of longing for deliverance from that fate. (I like the presentation of the theme as in the prologue most, with those soft, sad violins playing it)

2.: The Ring / Gollum Theme ("'Mystery of the Ring' Theme")

I believe this is the one the thread author spoke of, it reminds me also a bit of Goldenthal's Batman theme. It is heard e.g. in the "Prophecy" track that opens the CD, and during the conversation of Frodo and Gandalf in Moria. It sonds as it is lurking in the background, sometimes peeking up, like Gollum, and sounds mysterious.

3.: The Evil Ring / Nazgûl/Ring Theme ("Evil Ring Theme")

This is more straight forwardly written, just this descending ostinato, featured prominently as menacing accompanyment during some of the Nazgûl chase scenes, but also during the prologue's battle, and (to great effect) when Bilbo leaves Bag End and struggles to leave the ring behind. This theme conveys a sense of evil, fitting the scenes described above.

So, this is my observation and interpretation of the various themes in FotR that can be connected to the Ring. Of course they're subject to discussion, if anybody thinks different about their meaning, feel free to post it

-Chris

P.S.: My appreciation of Shore's score increased once again when I dicovered what choir text he uses in track 15 "The Great River": Galadriel's farewell poem ("Ai laurië lantar lassi súrinen...") when the fellowship departs from Lórien, and Elendil's words as he came to Middle-Earth after the downfall of Nûmenor ("Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien...") just before the fellowship sees the Argonath (when they reach them, the Ring "Fate Theme" is played to great effect, as mentioned above)

You just see how much thought was given in choosing the choir lyrics 8O

[scissorhands 16]

Heh. Well, Shore himself said he'd like to do an expanded edition, but he prefers to wait until they have the time to do a decent release, instead of rushing it out. I agree with him. 8O

Marian - confident this will be no "Ultimate Edition"-type joke, even though it may take a while.

And he is composing 30 minutes of new music, don't forget it.

I'm sure that a Complete Edition will be released (I bet next year). And then we will judge the score in its entirety.

[scissorhands 16]

Oh, that's great ChrisAfonso.

Obviously, Mr. Breathmask was referring to the Gollum Theme.

But I still think they are very different.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I don't think a new edition of the soundtrack will appear that soon. I rather believe that Shore will wait with that until all three films are finished, and then take some time and deliver a really worthy "expanded edition".

-Chris

[scissorhands 16]

I don't think a new edition of the soundtrack will appear that soon. I rather believe that Shore will wait with that until all three films are finished, and then take some time and deliver a really worthy "expanded edition".  

-Chris

Yeah, but think he will also have to make expanded editions of the sequels. So, surely, when he finishes the trilogy, he will have composed over 9 hours of music...

And the question is: will he wait until the other scores are completed, or will be the complete score of the first film released earlier?

I think this last one, because I suppose it's not only a decission of him, but also of the producers, and it's very risky waiting too much.

[Guest]

I don't think a new edition of the soundtrack will appear that soon. I rather believe that Shore will wait with that until all three films are finished, and then take some time and deliver a really worthy "expanded edition".

That's my assumption, too.

BTW, that first theme is the one I'm usually referring to when I write "Ring theme". It seems to be used to portray the ring itself. I think the Gollum theme is only used to refer to Gollum's character, and during the Bagend scenes where it shows how much Bilbo has become like him. The third theme is certainly linked to the Ring, too. But there's one more theme that seems to have something to do with the Ring, one of the places where you can hear it is when Boromir picks up the Ring on Caradrhas.

Marian - who can't find a login link.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Found the login fields now... had to scroll a whole page down, even on my 1600x1200 screen.

Marian - who was already beginning to wonder how everybody else had logged in before he found it.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

(...)But there's one more theme that seems to have something to do with the Ring, one of the places where you can hear it is when Boromir picks up the Ring on Caradrhas.

Hm, I'll have to check that one out... unfortunately I've currently lent the VHS to a friend.

[Ricard 2,245]

Found the login fields now... had to scroll a whole page down, even on my 1600x1200 screen.

Sorry, Marian. I forgot to add a note about the login fields. I'ver just updated the report.

[Guest]

(Napoleons Ghoest)

I love the definition of the main theme (sometimes titled Isildur's Theme) as the "Fate" theme, and trying to escape that fate. My best term for it is the "History of the Ring". The best theme since Anakin's Theme (and perhaps better). I think that this one has absolutely NO resemblance to the scores mentioned. Gollum's theme has a bit more though, perhaps that's the one being spoken of. The Ring Theme itself (the descending ostinato) is COOL!!! Particularly when the last alliance is marching into Mordor.

Oh well, I know I repeated exactly what everybody else said, but I just like to talk about LOTR.

The Ghoest-

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Yeah, the ostinato is cool. I also like how it's not really the theme for the Ringwraiths - they have their own theme (choral & brass) which uses the ostinato as a rhythm.

That other theme I mentioned might be more of a fate theme...at least the use for Boromir's temptation would suggest that. Though I'm still trying to figure out what exactly some of those themes are supposed to mean. Like the Ring theme for when the Fellowship passes the Argonath - just to show that they're approaching the Ring's home?

Gollum's theme...somewhat reminds me of Rosenman's theme for the same character.

[Morn 8]

I don't think a new edition of the soundtrack will appear that soon. I rather believe that Shore will wait with that until all three films are finished, and then take some time and deliver a really worthy "expanded edition".  

-Chris

Nah, I think he is waiting until the deluxe DVD or whatever it is called is out with his 30 minutes of extra score

This is the one heard over the film title and in the prologue, also occuring during Frodo's and Gandalf's conversation in Bag End and, more prominently, when the fellowship's boats pass the Argonath. I gave it its title because to me it conveys a sense of fate, and of longing for deliverance from that fate. (I like the presentation of the theme as in the prologue most, with those soft, sad violins playing it)

So it not only sounds like the defeat theme in Cleopatra but relates to fate just like the Cleopatra theme

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I hate it when people put notes up and I have no idea what is being discussed!

[Ren 75]

When I was watching FoTR, I couldn't help but wish they had started outside the trilogy and filmed the Hobbit too. There are so many references to the previous book in the movie. But, I don't think I'd like the Hobbit to be it's own movie 20 years later, if you know what I mean

[scissorhands 16]

I've read The Hobbit will be made after the trilogy.

[Justin 2]

I hate it when people put notes up and I have no idea what is being discussed!

Me too!

Justin

[NapoleonsGhoest 0]

To Marian: You confused which themes I was referring too. I didn't mention the "Temptation" theme, which is used with a very soft choir, when Boromir picks up the ring on Carahdrahs (SP!!!!!) . I was just mentioning what I would say is the main theme, or the "History of the Ring" theme, that plays when they reach the argonath. Interesting observations everybody.

The Ghoest-

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Of course the Fate/History/Isildur Theme is played when they reach the Argonath, because it is associated with Isildur.

BTW, just another creepy music/visuals scene comes to my mind, where this theme is used to great effect: after the sudden ambush against Isildur in the Gladden Fields, the screen goes black, and then this "mourning" violins while Isildur is seen floating in the river from below.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Ghoest: Ok. It's a cool theme, too.

Of course the Fate/History/Isildur Theme is played when they reach the Argonath, because it is associated with Isildur.

Hmm, that reminds me of something. The pillar on the right is clearly Elendil (though he shouldn't even be there). But that on the left is supposed to be Isildur? He doesn't look anything like him. I've been wondering about this all the time.

BTW, just another creepy music/visuals scene comes to my mind, where this theme is used to great effect: after the sudden ambush against Isildur in the Gladden Fields, the screen goes black, and then this "mourning" violins while Isildur is seen floating in the river from below.

But I'll still like that scene more in the extended version, where we *see* how the Ring betrayed Isildur.

The 7th Voyage of Sinbad (Herrmann; RSNO & McNeely)

[MAG-SI 10]

''FotR: The Ring's Theme''

Fotr has a Ring Theme?

[The Five Tones 302]

Chris A,

Nice job on the motivic notation. Reminded me of going through my Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung motif notes in school. I much prefer the older composer's Ring Theme!

I only saw FOTR once, but will check it out on DVD soon. Despite my great respect for Shore as a fellow Torontonian who has achieved tremendous success with this score and his work in rock bands and on Cronenberg's films, I was left cold by FOTR's music. It felt generic, like the work of someone with no real feel for this kind of epic scoring, IMHO. I will give it a second listen, though.

And I know the Oscars are driven by artistic and studio politics, but I would have rather seen the award go to Williams for AI, a score which is underrated by the members of this MB.

[scissorhands 16]

I only saw FOTR once, but will check it out on DVD soon. Despite my great respect for Shore as a fellow Torontonian who has achieved tremendous success with this score and his work in rock bands and on Cronenberg's films, I was left cold by FOTR's music. It felt generic, like the work of someone with no real feel for this kind of epic scoring, IMHO. I will give it a second listen, though.

And I know the Oscars are driven by artistic and studio politics, but I would have rather seen the award go to Williams for AI, a score which is underrated by the members of this MB.

I think Shore's best work is Silence of the Lambs (it's hard to listen, but very effective).

And I totally agree with you about A.I.

In my opinion, Williams' best score since SPR.

A Masterpiece.

Forever

For Always, for always, beyond here.........

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

On 9/9/2002 at 1:35 PM, The Five Tones said:

It felt generic, like the work of someone with no real feel for this kind of epic scoring, IMHO. I will give it a second listen, though.

 

I'm sorry, you listened to it ONCE???

 

Stefancos- who never bases his final opinion on the first listen. :roll:

[The Five Tones 302]

I try to trust my instincts. 19/20 times, my first impression is the pretty much the same as the last with a film score.

Who knows, if I had heard FOTR as a musical piece divorced from the images the first time around, i.e. on CD, I might feel differently.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Stefancos- who never bases his final opinion on the first listen.  :roll:

Except when it's classical music... :roll:

fivetones, perhaps it's different for you, but I find that there are certain composers whose score I have to listen to several times until I start to appreciate them - but some of those scores have become favourites of mine. I used to have this problem with masterpieces like Poltergeist, Total Recall and even Final Conflict (if you see a pattern here ).

Marian - who loves some scores he used to hate.

[The Five Tones 302]

Carol Anne's theme (Poltergeist) has always worked as anti-Christ music for me! I am grabbing my rosary beads just thinking about it... :flamebob:

[scissorhands 16]

Carol Anne's theme (Poltergeist) has always worked as anti-Christ music for me!

RIGHT! RIGHT! RIGHT!

When this theme appears for the first time, it's pleasant. Then it accompanies the horror moments. But in the end credits.....children chorus singing AAAH AH AH AAAH.......and those last devilish laughs.......

[Ricard 2,245]

fivetones, perhaps it's different for you, but I find that there are certain composers whose score I have to listen to several times until I start to appreciate them - but some of those scores have become favourites of mine. I used to have this problem with masterpieces like Poltergeist, Total Recall and even Final Conflict (if you see a pattern here ).

Marian - who loves some scores he used to hate.

Like fivetones, my opinion rarely changes after hundreds of listens and throughout the decades. I've always considered Poltergeist an absolute masterpiece, Final Conflict a great score and Total Recall from mediocre to unbearable.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

(...)

Hmm, that reminds me of something. The pillar on the right is clearly Elendil (though he shouldn't even be there). But that on the left is supposed to be Isildur? He doesn't look anything like him. I've been wondering about this all the time.

I think the reason they put Elendil there instead of Anarion is, that Anarion doesn't show up in the movie, and isn't mentioned either. So they had to put someone there whom the adience has seen at least briefly. And I think the statue of Isildur looks a bit like him, even more if they had put a more noticable beard. Whatever...

BTW, among the TTT pictures that appear these days there is one of a scene I'm really looking forward to yipee :

Sméagol and Déagol fishing, and soon finding the ring.

I believe this will be a flashback scene when Gollum is underway with Frodo and Sam.

-Chris, eagerly awaiting TTT and the FotR SEE

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Yes, I was very happy when I first saw that photo. I missed Smeagol's background story in FOTR.

Marian - who is shocked that anyone can not like Total Recall. bawling

[scissorhands 16]

Marian - who is shocked that anyone can not like Total Recall.  bawling

I ADORE Total Recall. One of the best Goldsmith's works.

BTW, I think that the Smeagol flashback should have appeared in FOTR, in the Elrond Council, which I think is the biggest loss of the film: where is Bilbo? It's one of the best moments of the book, when he says: "Well, the old hobbit Bilbo started this, and he will have to finish it...". Unforgivable.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I ADORE Total Recall. One of the best Goldsmith's works.

BTW, I think that the Smeagol flashback should have appeared in FOTR, in the Elrond Council,

Hmm...I agree there is a lot of stuff that I would have expected them to mention in the first film... but I also think that they probably had to save things for TTT, which probably is the most difficult to make, with an open end and all. I do wonder though where they'll fit the Smeagol/Deagol story into TTT's narrative - he'll hardly tell it to Frodo and Sam, and even if he talks a bit in his sleep, that won't be enough to show it visually.

which I think is the biggest loss of the film: where is Bilbo?

I think the council was basically very well handled, the Ring making them all shout at each other was pretty nice. But I still miss Bilbo a lot ("all that is gold does not glitter"). The other thing I miss VERY much is Gandalf speaking the "Ash nazg" poem, but that'll be in the expanded release.

Unforgivable? That's Merry and Pippin's goofy appearance at the end of the council sequence.

Marian - who really hates THAT bit in the movie.

Est-Ouest (Patrick Doyle)

[scissorhands 16]

I think the council was basically very well handled, the Ring making them all shout at each other was pretty nice. But I still miss Bilbo a lot ("all that is gold does not glitter"). The other thing I miss VERY much is Gandalf speaking the "Ash nazg" poem, but that'll be in the expanded release.

I think it's the only part of this film that is worst than the animated movie version (Bakshi).

But we have also (at least) two EXACT sequences, copied from Bakshi's film: when the four hobbits, hidden in the tree, see the Ringwraith for the first time; and when the ringwraiths goes to the Poney... and break the beds.

Unforgivable? That's Merry and Pippin's goofy appearance at the end of the council sequence.

LOL It's a bit pathetic, yes.

Est-Ouest (Patrick Doyle)

I liked that movie very much, but I didn't pay attention to the music. Next time I'll do.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

(...)

The other thing I miss VERY much is Gandalf speaking the "Ash nazg" poem, but that'll be in the expanded release.

However instead of Gandalf, the Ring speaks the poem Well, at least half of it. While everyone is shouting at each other an Frodo is sitting and staring at the Ring, the Ring is heard whispering "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul" over and over again.

-Chris, now going to bed and continuing to read the Sil.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

But it only kept repeating the first half of the poem. Plus it can't compete with Ian McKellen's voice.

But we have also (at least) two EXACT sequences, copied from Bakshi's film: when the four hobbits, hidden in the tree, see the Ringwraith for the first time; and when the ringwraiths goes to the Poney... and break the beds.

Yup. Though they left of the stupid beaming and dancing the wraiths did in the Bakshi film.

I liked that movie very much, but I didn't pay attention to the music. Next time I'll do.

If you like Doyle, you'll like this score. If you don't like him, then not.

Marian - who has to get an English copy of The Silmarillion.

[Morn 8]

I dunno how someone can call Poltergeist a masterpiece.

[Ricard 2,245]

Marian - who is shocked that anyone can not like Total Recall.  bawling

Well, I just gave it an upteenth chance in your honor. And my opinion hasn't changed.

Sorry!

[scissorhands 16]

I know you will like this (if you haven't seen it yet):

Gandalf the White!!!!!

Can't wait for TTT.

And will McEllen get another nomination? (if so, this time he should be the winner)

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Today there was a discussion on a German LotR forum how the story would have unfolded if the fellowship had cars or trains to travel to Mordor... then some one said

I believe that if Middle Earth had been so modern, in a moment of megalomania Denethor would have insisted on bombing Mordor - for he would've claimed to have evidence for Sauron developing nuclear weapons and working closely together with the Orc-Qaida!

But then a Last Alliance of Schröders and Fischers went before the UN security council.

That provided me with a good laugh

(hey, what about "The Council of Annand"?

'Strangers from distant lands... you will unite - or you will fall.' )

-Chris, amused